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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N57 / M57 Turbo Diesel Discussions - 335d > Hybrid Turbo options and comparisons



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      01-25-2017, 01:21 AM   #463
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.
I have sold my 535d.
But actually I do now only BMWs and MBs, wery little other marks.
My latest car is ML 420cdi
Have already bought two bigger hybrid turbos for it.

This is from stock car, ~450hp/1100nm from crank.





Hybrid turbos.

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      02-05-2017, 01:16 AM   #464
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exhaust maniflood

My car is BMW E46 30d 2005.

My turbo and exhaust system and downpipe isn't stock.
I want the better exhaust maniflood, because my car's EMAP value is too high.
I can't realy finde anybody to make it.
Could you help me with it?

I will try it on dyno as in live the manifold open by the egr valve and remove
all of the intake system before the turbo. Improve it?



Thank You.
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      02-05-2017, 04:09 AM   #465
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Stock manifold is good, also 335d stock manifold is good and gives +500hp.

Last edited by Charged; 02-05-2017 at 04:41 AM..
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      02-05-2017, 08:34 AM   #466
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tuikku, thanks for some of the email correspondence and turbo swap advice you gave me ~ 1 year ago.

I'm now operating with a Pro Turbo modified LP turbo. Pekka did an outstanding job on this modification, and it sounds like he will be working with JR Auto Performance to bring more of these units into the North American market.

One thing I was hoping to see more of in this thread was measured data on airflow, EMP and Boost relationships. Along those lines, I'll contribute some data I'm getting with the Pro Turbo option in my system (I'm using an external wastegate to control boost, using water/methanol injection and some other custom fueling mods, modified the downpipe turbine transition to improve flow, modified intake mods, etc.) and using JR Auto's DDE (hasn't been optimized yet for the new turbo).

And here is a matchbot simulation showing a sanity check on the on-road dyno results, and showing predicted airflow capabilities. This setup is moving ~64-65 lb/min of air!

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com//afterm...6_wrsin=92044&

One thing I'd be curious to hear more about is the altered behavior of the HP turbo. I seem to have lost ~1-2 psi of boost capability for the rpm range where the HP turbo is primarily active. I've fiddled with the turbine switchover valve nut position, but can't seem to get back to where I was before. However, I also changed HP turbo's at the same time. But, talking to others who have done this mod, they also lost some boost capability in the lower rpm range.

tuikku, did you also see this behavior, or were you able to get back all of the HP boost you had before the LP mod?
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      02-05-2017, 10:57 AM   #467
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Are those figures from a 335d with only modified turbo?

Is it both the LP and the HP turbos that have been modified?
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      02-05-2017, 01:20 PM   #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _TB_ View Post
Are those figures from a 335d with only modified turbo?

Is it both the LP and the HP turbos that have been modified?
335d. It's a standard HP turbo and then the modified LP turbo. A similar configuration that tuikku had previously used. However, on my car there's a lot more modifications interacting together within the system to get that behavior.
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      02-05-2017, 02:56 PM   #469
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how much does it make wothout water/methanol?
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      02-05-2017, 04:26 PM   #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _TB_ View Post
how much does it make wothout water/methanol?
I don't have data for that. But I'd expect it to be much less. The plots above are with the H2O/methanol injection starting at ~3100 rpm (where the CACT temp slope flattens) and progressively increases to help maintain the torque at the upper rpm's.
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      02-05-2017, 10:51 PM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post

One thing I was hoping to see more of in this thread was measured data on airflow, EMP and Boost relationships. Along those lines, I'll contribute some data I'm getting with the Pro Turbo option in my system (I'm using an external wastegate to control boost, using water/methanol injection and some other custom fueling mods, modified the downpipe turbine transition to improve flow, modified intake mods, etc.) and using JR Auto's DDE (hasn't been optimized yet for the new turbo).
Please let us know what data you would like logged. I can do whatever in TestO. But would think that logging exactly the same parameters would make the most sense for comparison. I also hear that the new JR 2.8 is already optimized for the new turbo.
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      02-06-2017, 08:10 AM   #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yozh View Post
Please let us know what data you would like logged. I can do whatever in TestO. But would think that logging exactly the same parameters would make the most sense for comparison. I also hear that the new JR 2.8 is already optimized for the new turbo.
I'm still running an older tune. Will be interesting to see how his updated tune will work in my system.

For TestO, these are some of the parameters that are interesting (showing the boost, EMP, the EMP/Boost ratio, CACT, lambda). The EMP/Boost ratio was a parameter I was very interested in, but wasn't seeing anyone sharing info about...

Also including a pull from this morning after tweaking something this weekend. I'm using the lowest smoothing setting for this one, as I wanted to make sure the rpm's were lining up, and it's easier to see the exact 4/5 shift with minimum smoothing (if the shift point doesn't line up, then something is wrong with the software settings or the road isn't flat or the mounting of the device is inadequate...).
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      02-06-2017, 04:00 PM   #473
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Looks like good amount of more power to higher revs compared to stock turbos!

Can you list quickly other modifications like intercooler, exhaust/downpipe,... etc.

Mostly I would be intrested are you using stock R70 HPFP or did you upgrade it to R90?
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      02-06-2017, 06:05 PM   #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AiM View Post
Looks like good amount of more power to higher revs compared to stock turbos!

Can you list quickly other modifications like intercooler, exhaust/downpipe,... etc.

Mostly I would be intrested are you using stock R70 HPFP or did you upgrade it to R90?
Yes, the Pro Turbo hybrid is flowing much more than what I could squeeze out of the OEM K26. Although, even with the limitations of the stock turbo, the modifications on the vehicle was allowing it to reach ~440'ish wheel hp and do 119-120 mph quarter mile trap speeds (trap speeds agree extremely well with the PerfExpert on road dyno power predictions). But, water/methanol was a key ingredient to doing that.

Details on the modifications on this vehicle are strung about on this forum in different threads, but the main things would be: Jarek DDE remap, Pro Turbo modified LP turbo, cold air intake with less pressure drop than oem setup, VRSF stepped intercooler with iaknown turbo outlet ring to eliminate OEM leak prone connection, blocked internal wastegate and modified downpipe exit transition for the turbine, external wastegate for boost control and not adding the bypassed exhaust right beside the turbine and disturbs airflow, and rpm/boost progressively controlled water/methanol injection strategy, a progressively controlled fuel rail distortion configuration that has a good SOI and duration characteristic at peak rpm's, free flowing exhaust (mostly gutted OEM setup), and did I mention the large amounts of methanol at the upper rpm's?

The HPFP and injectors are stock. This setup is actually pretty low cost and simple, except for the recent turbo mod and the DDE remap, which are the most expensive modifications.

The weather got really warm this afternoon, so I left work a little early and got another test pull (I introduced the water/methanol at a little earlier rpm which brought the peak wheel torque up to a level I'm not comfortable with ... I'll probably turn it back to come in later).

55F, 970mBar, 43% relative humidity. I'm jamming enough fuel into the cylinders that I'm seeing smoke again :-)

So, 2 pulls today, and both were within 1 wheel hp of each other with my on road dyno measurement technique.
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      02-06-2017, 06:58 PM   #475
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Fantastic data Mr Wyse! Would you care to share the approximate volume of methanol you're squirting in?
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      02-06-2017, 07:10 PM   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitbread View Post
Fantastic data Mr Wyse! Would you care to share the approximate volume of methanol you're squirting in?
I increased the amount from the initial testing based on the AFR's and boost levels the new turbo allowed. Based on the AEM flow gauge numbers, and the hydrometer testing of the mix, there is about 55-60 lb/hr at the upper rpm's. Going just off the nozzle rating, it should be more, but the AEM flow gauge shows about 15-20% less flow than the nozzle rating. I have not calibrated the flow gauge, so it's absolute accuracy could be off.
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      02-06-2017, 07:36 PM   #477
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I suppose I should've asked a more clear question. Is the 55-60lbs/hr figure methanol only or the combined water/methanol weight? What percentage mixture are you running? I'm much more familiar with cc/min figures for water/meth so I was trying to calculate it but was unclear on some of the data .
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      02-06-2017, 08:15 PM   #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitbread View Post
I suppose I should've asked a more clear question. Is the 55-60lbs/hr figure methanol only or the combined water/methanol weight? What percentage mixture are you running? I'm much more familiar with cc/min figures for water/meth so I was trying to calculate it but was unclear on some of the data .
That is the amount of methanol. I was using lb/hr as that's what matchbot wants to see in its simulator for the fueling rate. The flow gauge is reporting ~820-850 ml/min peak flow with a ~65-70% methanol blend (based on manometer reading). The nozzle (Prometh, formerly alcoholinjection system) is rated for 1000 ml/min at 100 psi and I'm using a 200 psi pump (might be 250 psi... would need to double check for certain) and a solenoid.
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      02-06-2017, 09:01 PM   #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
That is the amount of methanol. I was using lb/hr as that's what matchbot wants to see in its simulator for the fueling rate. The flow gauge is reporting ~820-850 ml/min peak flow with a ~65-70% methanol blend (based on manometer reading). The nozzle (Prometh, formerly alcoholinjection system) is rated for 1000 ml/min at 100 psi and I'm using a 200 psi pump (might be 250 psi... would need to double check for certain) and a solenoid.
Very interesting, I was expecting you were running substantially more. I'm running right about 1050-1100cc/min of 50/50. Have you played with various mix percentages to find the best balance of the worlds?
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      02-06-2017, 09:50 PM   #480
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Quote:
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Very interesting, I was expecting you were running substantially more. I'm running right about 1050-1100cc/min of 50/50. Have you played with various mix percentages to find the best balance of the worlds?
Yes, I've got lots and lots of logs of all kinds of combinations of system configurations. Before the turbo mod I didn't have enough air, at EMP levels that didn't limit output, to burn more than ~400 ml/min of methanol at most normal ambient conditions (extreme cold and high ambient pressures would allow more) before AFR's would then start limiting output. Balancing the EMP and AFR was kinda tricky. And then I also needed the water portion to control EGT's due to the low AFR's... So the ~800 ml/min on the flow gauge (which may not be accurate in the absolute sense) with 50/50 mix was the normal setup previously.

So I'm now adding roughly 150-200 ml/min more methanol than before the turbo mod, and this weekend I tweaked the rail pressure manipulation to be a little more aggressive.
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      02-06-2017, 11:23 PM   #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
For TestO, these are some of the parameters that are interesting (showing the boost, EMP, the EMP/Boost ratio, CACT, lambda). The EMP/Boost ratio was a parameter I was very interested in, but wasn't seeing anyone sharing info about...

Also including a pull from this morning after tweaking something this weekend. I'm using the lowest smoothing setting for this one, as I wanted to make sure the rpm's were lining up, and it's easier to see the exact 4/5 shift with minimum smoothing (if the shift point doesn't line up, then something is wrong with the software settings or the road isn't flat or the mounting of the device is inadequate...).
I have not played with PerfExpert much despite having the program and a decent phone mount. Finding a flat even stretch of road in the city is a challenge. TestO, I'll try to grab for you once this snow disappears, otherwise I do not get out of 30mph range lately. We have not had snow for the past 3 years...
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      02-07-2017, 08:02 AM   #482
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Quote:
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I have not played with PerfExpert much despite having the program and a decent phone mount. Finding a flat even stretch of road in the city is a challenge. TestO, I'll try to grab for you once this snow disappears, otherwise I do not get out of 30mph range lately. We have not had snow for the past 3 years...
Yeah, finding a good place that can be used consistently is key. As long as I follow the same procedure and use the same stretch of road, and avoid times when there's wind, the repeatability of the tool has been impressive. And repeatability is critical for being able to quantify benefits.

This website is great for showing the elevation on google maps: https://www.daftlogic.com/sandbox-go...d-altitude.htm

You could use it to scout out sections of road to get an idea of the elevation profile. I also have a lot of altimeter data for local county roads based on years of biking with my Garmin GPS/altimeter cycle computer.

The place I use is a location I can drive to on the way to work, and it in the dark mornings I can see if there are cars for miles in any direction. It's surrounded by corn/bean fields and there's very little traffic when I drive into work. I don't do any testing if there's anyone even remotely close to the location...
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      02-07-2017, 11:45 PM   #483
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Quote:
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This website is great for showing the elevation on google maps: https://www.daftlogic.com/sandbox-go...d-altitude.htm

.
Thanks for the link. I already know where I need to go for these tests.
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      02-15-2017, 09:38 AM   #484
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I've started venturing into 5th gear. This morning I did a full fueling 4th gear pull and kept it going into 5th until ~ 4370 rpm ... which is faster than I was comfortable with so I let off there.

The 4th to 5th transmission shift brings the rpm back down to a little over 3700 rpm (looking forward to the TCU remap capability to increase the shift points). I'm overlaying the boost/emp plots for ~3700-4400 rpm for 4th and 5th in the 2nd plot.

The logged data shows the turbo responds better in 5th. For the same EWG setting, the boost is a bit higher and the EMP/Boost ratio is better.
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