Pure Stage 1 and Stage 2 dynos on 91 octane pump gas

DrRobert · 10-13-2015, 11:57 PM

I'm going to start this thread with my final conclusion - 91 octane gas sucks. But that's what they call premium gas here in California, and there are no E85 stations anywhere near my home. So please don't flame me if you don't like my numbers.

Now, here are my dyno results on 91 octane pump gas for Pure stage 1 and stage 2 turbos. My car is a 2011 E90 and it is my DD. My goal has been to get it to make as much power as possible on pump gas, without losing too much comfort (including noise) as a DD. The only other bolt on engine mods (which were the same on both dynos) are an ER FMIC and CP, and the Pure turbo inlet pipe. I have stock DP and exhaust, and have no plans to change that. The only hardware that changed between the two dynos was the stage 2 turbo (which included a bored-out OEM manifold) and the GFB DV+ diverter valve upgrade offered by Pure. Both dynos were on separate, custom tunes by Dzenno at PTF. Ambient temps were similarly warm on both days, but the stage 2 dyno included more runs as Dzenno did some fine tuning on the dyno to finish off the 91 octane tune. As a result, ambient and intake temps were hotter on the final Stage 2 dyno shown below than they were on the Stage 1 dyno and the initial Stage 2 runs, which could have affected the results.

Please note that the Stage 2 graph above was from the 4th run, and that ambient temp increased from 87 to 93 deg F, and intake air temps by 6-10 degrees, from run 1 to run 4. Run 4 had a smoother curve, but Run 1 had higher peak WHP of 348, and similar peak torque of 385 lb-ft. So I think it is safe to say the Stage 2 turbo gained approx 35 WHP and 15 lb-ft Tq over the Stage 1 turbo on 91 octane. YMMV.

Now I'm off to find a way to get some better fuel in the tank!

Robert

AirbusPilot · 10-14-2015, 12:15 AM

Obviously, you have a MAJOR bottle neck restriction with the stock downpipe. I don't think octane is the limiting factor here.

DrRobert · 10-14-2015, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirbusPilot

Obviously, you have a MAJOR bottle neck restriction with the stock downpipe. I don't think octane is the limiting factor here.

Yeah, too bad emissions laws are so strict here in CA. I have no interest in reinstalling the stock DP whenever I need to get my car smogged. If someone comes up with a fix for that I might change my plans, but for now this is what it is.

n55e90 · 10-14-2015, 12:59 AM

jesus the stage2 dynos the same numbers i do on the stock turbo with e30. that really sucks you don't have e85 near you.

only mods i have are intake jb4 down pipe and e30 still on the stock charge pipe and intercooler.

tkong · 10-14-2015, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n55e90

jesus the stage2 dynos the same numbers i do on the stock turbo with e30. that really sucks you don't have e85 near you.

only mods i have are intake jb4 down pipe and e30 still on the stock charge pipe and intercooler.

Yea but the top end doesn't drop drastically like the stock turbo does.

n55e90 · 10-14-2015, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkong

Yea but the top end doesn't drop drastically like the stock turbo does.

very true lol

theweebabySeamus · 10-14-2015, 02:01 AM

Jesus. Even with 91 ACN I would've expected the stage 1 numbers to be closer to the stage 2 numbers.

Bours · 10-14-2015, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theweebabySeamus

Jesus. Even with 91 ACN I would've expected the stage 1 numbers to be closer to the stage 2 numbers.

Yea same here i mean wtf bro ??

Tricki · 10-14-2015, 03:49 AM

Stage 1 is good upto a certain stage then stage 2 will kick on from there!!!
So it depends on the add on mods will determine which turbo to go for.
In your case stage 1 would be enough...

asrautox · 10-14-2015, 07:37 AM

Thanks for doing this test. Ignoring the numbers, the two curves look to be just what I would expect going from Stage 1 to 2. IE a slight trade off in spool for increased top end. Numbers wise, I would expect a FBO stage 2 car to be fairly close to 400whp on straight 91, so to me it's clear that CA gas really does suck and the stock DP is a definite bottle neck.

weehe126 · 10-14-2015, 08:07 AM

Can you post logs? Even on 91 that seems pretty bad.

DrRobert · 10-14-2015, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrRobert

please don't flame me if you don't like my numbers.

Can't post the logs. Max boost on stage 2 is 19.7. A more aggressive tune may have yielded different results, but I told Dzenno not to push it so hard that it might risk long term damage to the engine.

Numbers aside, I'm actually quite happy with the way the car is running. It is screaming fast for a DD and has never run better. Will move on to E30 or E50 soon, gonna have to drive a long way to get it though so still figuring that out. I installed a stage 2 LPFP but it is giving me error messages all over the dashboard so might uninstall it and stick to E30 on stock LPFP.

Please note that the reason I obtained and posted these dynos is that I would have really liked to have this info when I was trying to decide whether or not to upgrade to stage 2 turbo, but nobody could tell me what to expect with stage 2 on 91 octane. So I did it for you guys or any other BMW owners who mignt be looking for some guidance before plunking down $2.5K for a turbo upgrade. I've gotten a lot of good advice from this board and wanted to give something back, but not really looking for any advice (and certainly not any criticism) this time.

Robert

CantCatchMe · 10-14-2015, 09:34 AM

Did you change your battery yet? If not, do you have a battery charger for when you flash your car? It's the current that draws that error message. I don't have anything on my Navi anymore.

As for the power, try and get E50 in, you'll be surprised how the car reacts to it to yield more power. I'd also look for 100 octane if it's closer. Either one will do to up the turbos' potential.

DrRobert · 10-14-2015, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CantCatchMe

Did you change your battery yet? If not, do you have a battery charger for when you flash your car? It's the current that draws that error message. I don't have anything on my Navi anymore.

As for the power, try and get E50 in, you'll be surprised how the car reacts to it to yield more power. I'd also look for 100 octane if it's closer. Either one will do to up the turbos' potential.

Brand new bigger battery installed yesterday before LPFP reinstalled. I don't use a battery charger when I flash the car. Will see if these error messages keep popping up, but really don't want to be seeing them every day.

weehe126 · 10-14-2015, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrRobert

Can't post the logs. Max boost on stage 2 is 19.7. A more aggressive tune may have yielded different results, but I told Dzenno not to push it so hard that it might risk long term damage to the engine.

Numbers aside, I'm actually quite happy with the way the car is running. It is screaming fast for a DD and has never run better. Will move on to E30 or E50 soon, gonna have to drive a long way to get it though so still figuring that out. I installed a stage 2 LPFP but it is giving me error messages all over the dashboard so might uninstall it and stick to E30 on stock LPFP.

Please note that the reason I obtained and posted these dynos is that I would have really liked to have this info when I was trying to decide whether or not to upgrade to stage 2 turbo, but nobody could tell me what to expect with stage 2 on 91 octane. So I did it for you guys or any other BMW owners who mignt be looking for some guidance before plunking down $2.5K for a turbo upgrade. I've gotten a lot of good advice from this board and wanted to give something back, but not really looking for any advice (and certainly not any criticism) this time.

Robert

Didn't mean to come off critical. I am curious about the boost and timing targets. Basically if you could hold 18psi to redline you should be in the low 400whp. By the look of the dyno you have boost taper starting at 5k rpms. You say 19.5psi, but i'm guessing closer to 15psi at redline. Why can't you post the logs? You could link the datazap or post a pic of the jb4 log.

CantCatchMe · 10-14-2015, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weehe126

Didn't mean to come off critical. I am curious about the boost and timing targets. Basically if you could hold 18psi to redline you should be in the low 400whp. By the look of the dyno you have boost taper starting at 5k rpms. You say 19.5psi, but i'm guessing closer to 15psi at redline. Why can't you post the logs? You could link the datazap or post a pic of the jb4 log.

He doesn't have a JB4. But logs would be great to look at.

CantCatchMe · 10-14-2015, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrRobert

Brand new bigger battery installed yesterday before LPFP reinstalled. I don't use a battery charger when I flash the car. Will see if these error messages keep popping up, but really don't want to be seeing them every day.

Charge your battery and I promise you'll see differences with the code not popping up.

Every time you flash, attach your battery charger and you'll be fine as it flashes for those 2-8 mins. It happened to be where my battery would dip, ever since no more fuel pump icon on my navi. Do it cause it'll help big time Robert.

Dhillon92 · 10-14-2015, 12:11 PM

Damn that gas must be pretty bad if Dzenno tuned it and its still not near 400whp. I agree with Wehee, 19psi on the stage two should be putting quite a bit (400+), and should be holding until redline, I'd love to know what boost targets are throughout the band. Perhaps were seeing the stock downpipe thats restricting it that much, on that note I'm wondering how long those cats will hold up at such high psi, wouldn't they just breakthrough eventually? I'm paranoid about my secondary cats running 18psi on the stock turbo with meth/94, here you are still hauling the stock primaries! ****** is in the making of the dpfix hopefully it releases soon!

I didn't mean to come off criticizing either, but rather learning how much of a restriction the stock cats can be at high HP.

DrRobert your review is greatly appreciated and shows a lot, I wish you could post logs for us from the dyno so that we can see how/what the car is doing internally.

Much thanks for the effort of dyno'ing and returning to the community. Keep us posted

DrRobert · 10-14-2015, 12:33 PM

Thanks Dzenno, really appreciate your help and extra time on the dyno yesterday. I tried posting the log but it is an Excel spreadsheet and couldn't figure out a way to upload it to this site. Will be filling up with E50 soon and beginning a new tune. Will repeat dyno for another comparison when done with that. But I know I'll be having to run 91 a good part of the time so will definitely be making use of this current map. Will also charge up the new battery to see if it gets rid of the error messages. But I thought the battery charges itself while driving so thought that unnecessary.

weehe126 · 10-14-2015, 12:38 PM

So 0° timing and 14psi, that does make sense on the low numbers then. It is interesting that the cat is causing so many problems even on 91 and lower boost and timing. you can hit better numbers with the stock turbo FBO and 93. I was always under the impression you can increase timing in higher RPMs especially with the very low boost to help increase high RPM HP.

But if the OP is happy that is all that matters.

RIP_MKVI · 10-14-2015, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrRobert

Thanks Dzenno, really appreciate your help and extra time on the dyno yesterday. I tried posting the log but it is an Excel spreadsheet and couldn't figure out a way to upload it to this site. Will be filling up with E50 soon and beginning a new tune. Will repeat dyno for another comparison when done with that. But I know I'll be having to run 91 a good part of the time so will definitely be making use of this current map. Will also charge up the new battery to see if it gets rid of the error messages. But I thought the battery charges itself while driving so thought that unnecessary.

Robert, you can go to this site:
http://datazap.me/upload-csv
to register an account and you can upload your excel file (.csv format) to generate a graph. Then you can click on various parameters below the graph to change the display. and you can take a screenshot and post it here.

RVAN · 10-14-2015, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrRobert

I'm going to start this thread with my final conclusion - 91 octane gas sucks. But that's what they call premium gas here in California, and there are no E85 stations anywhere near my home. So please don't flame me if you don't like my numbers.

I have stock DP and exhaust, and have no plans to change that.

Now I'm off to find a way to get some better fuel in the tank!

Robert

OP might I give you a little advice. I also live in CA, and regarding the changing the DP we're talking once every two years. It's really not that big of a deal.

I imagine sticking with the stop DP might be costing you close to 40 whp considering how much less boost you're running and how much more back pressure you have now.

Throw on a $400 dp and a E50 blend and you might pick up 75 whp. Think about it 75 more whp for one part and some fuel.

Also there are apps and websites such as http://www.ethanolretailer.com/flex-fuel-station-finder

or propel and flex-fuel apps that will show you exactly how far you need to travel. Trust us in 91 land E85 is definitely, definitely worth it.

10-13-2015, 11:57 PM	#1
DrRobert Normal Person 148 Rep 862 Posts Drives: 2011 E90 335i Join Date: May 2014 Location: paradise iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 E90 335i [0.00]	Pure Stage 1 and Stage 2 dynos on 91 octane pump gas I'm going to start this thread with my final conclusion - 91 octane gas sucks. But that's what they call premium gas here in California, and there are no E85 stations anywhere near my home. So please don't flame me if you don't like my numbers. Now, here are my dyno results on 91 octane pump gas for Pure stage 1 and stage 2 turbos. My car is a 2011 E90 and it is my DD. My goal has been to get it to make as much power as possible on pump gas, without losing too much comfort (including noise) as a DD. The only other bolt on engine mods (which were the same on both dynos) are an ER FMIC and CP, and the Pure turbo inlet pipe. I have stock DP and exhaust, and have no plans to change that. The only hardware that changed between the two dynos was the stage 2 turbo (which included a bored-out OEM manifold) and the GFB DV+ diverter valve upgrade offered by Pure. Both dynos were on separate, custom tunes by Dzenno at PTF. Ambient temps were similarly warm on both days, but the stage 2 dyno included more runs as Dzenno did some fine tuning on the dyno to finish off the 91 octane tune. As a result, ambient and intake temps were hotter on the final Stage 2 dyno shown below than they were on the Stage 1 dyno and the initial Stage 2 runs, which could have affected the results. Please note that the Stage 2 graph above was from the 4th run, and that ambient temp increased from 87 to 93 deg F, and intake air temps by 6-10 degrees, from run 1 to run 4. Run 4 had a smoother curve, but Run 1 had higher peak WHP of 348, and similar peak torque of 385 lb-ft. So I think it is safe to say the Stage 2 turbo gained approx 35 WHP and 15 lb-ft Tq over the Stage 1 turbo on 91 octane. YMMV. Now I'm off to find a way to get some better fuel in the tank! Robert Last edited by DrRobert; 10-14-2015 at 12:15 AM..
	Appreciate 2 Tweet Quote

10-14-2015, 12:15 AM	#2
AirbusPilot Second Lieutenant 34 Rep 220 Posts Drives: 2023 M550i Join Date: May 2012 Location: Austin, Tx. iTrader: (0)	Obviously, you have a MAJOR bottle neck restriction with the stock downpipe. I don't think octane is the limiting factor here.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-14-2015, 12:59 AM	#4
n55e90 In it to win it 12 Rep 111 Posts Drives: 2011 e90 335i Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Houston iTrader: (0)	jesus the stage2 dynos the same numbers i do on the stock turbo with e30. that really sucks you don't have e85 near you. only mods i have are intake jb4 down pipe and e30 still on the stock charge pipe and intercooler.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-14-2015, 02:01 AM	#7
theweebabySeamus Captain 376 Rep 902 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Bay Area iTrader: (1)	Jesus. Even with 91 ACN I would've expected the stage 1 numbers to be closer to the stage 2 numbers.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-14-2015, 03:49 AM	#9
Tricki Lieutenant 215 Rep 472 Posts Drives: BMW M2 Comp Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Melbourne Australia iTrader: (0)	Stage 1 is good upto a certain stage then stage 2 will kick on from there!!! So it depends on the add on mods will determine which turbo to go for. In your case stage 1 would be enough...
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-14-2015, 07:37 AM	#10
asrautox Private First Class 19 Rep 151 Posts Drives: 2011 335xi Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: LA iTrader: (0)	Thanks for doing this test. Ignoring the numbers, the two curves look to be just what I would expect going from Stage 1 to 2. IE a slight trade off in spool for increased top end. Numbers wise, I would expect a FBO stage 2 car to be fairly close to 400whp on straight 91, so to me it's clear that CA gas really does suck and the stock DP is a definite bottle neck. __________________ 2011 335xi M-Sport \| MHD E40 \| VSRF DP/CP \| Wagner IC \| GFB DV+ \| xHP Stage 3 \| Dinan/Koni/UUC
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-14-2015, 08:07 AM	#11
weehe126 Brigadier General 1161 Rep 3,189 Posts Drives: 2017 340i Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: San Antonio iTrader: (2)	Can you post logs? Even on 91 that seems pretty bad.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-14-2015, 09:34 AM	#13
CantCatchMe Lieutenant Colonel 340 Rep 1,744 Posts Drives: 2012 335i xdrive msport(E92) Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: West Bloomfield, MI iTrader: (2)	Did you change your battery yet? If not, do you have a battery charger for when you flash your car? It's the current that draws that error message. I don't have anything on my Navi anymore. As for the power, try and get E50 in, you'll be surprised how the car reacts to it to yield more power. I'd also look for 100 octane if it's closer. Either one will do to up the turbos' potential.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-14-2015, 12:11 PM	#18
Dhillon92 Captain 82 Rep 604 Posts Drives: '11 335xi Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Toronto iTrader: (0)	Damn that gas must be pretty bad if Dzenno tuned it and its still not near 400whp. I agree with Wehee, 19psi on the stage two should be putting quite a bit (400+), and should be holding until redline, I'd love to know what boost targets are throughout the band. Perhaps were seeing the stock downpipe thats restricting it that much, on that note I'm wondering how long those cats will hold up at such high psi, wouldn't they just breakthrough eventually? I'm paranoid about my secondary cats running 18psi on the stock turbo with meth/94, here you are still hauling the stock primaries! ****** is in the making of the dpfix hopefully it releases soon! I didn't mean to come off criticizing either, but rather learning how much of a restriction the stock cats can be at high HP. DrRobert your review is greatly appreciated and shows a lot, I wish you could post logs for us from the dyno so that we can see how/what the car is doing internally. Much thanks for the effort of dyno'ing and returning to the community. Keep us posted
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-14-2015, 12:33 PM	#19
DrRobert Normal Person 148 Rep 862 Posts Drives: 2011 E90 335i Join Date: May 2014 Location: paradise iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 E90 335i [0.00]	Thanks Dzenno, really appreciate your help and extra time on the dyno yesterday. I tried posting the log but it is an Excel spreadsheet and couldn't figure out a way to upload it to this site. Will be filling up with E50 soon and beginning a new tune. Will repeat dyno for another comparison when done with that. But I know I'll be having to run 91 a good part of the time so will definitely be making use of this current map. Will also charge up the new battery to see if it gets rid of the error messages. But I thought the battery charges itself while driving so thought that unnecessary.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-14-2015, 12:38 PM	#20
weehe126 Brigadier General 1161 Rep 3,189 Posts Drives: 2017 340i Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: San Antonio iTrader: (2)	So 0° timing and 14psi, that does make sense on the low numbers then. It is interesting that the cat is causing so many problems even on 91 and lower boost and timing. you can hit better numbers with the stock turbo FBO and 93. I was always under the impression you can increase timing in higher RPMs especially with the very low boost to help increase high RPM HP. But if the OP is happy that is all that matters.
	Appreciate 0 Quote