[S4to335]

Originally Posted by sg335

Did you see that UTube video at Horse Theif Mile with the Dinan Stage 3 335i VS the new M3 stock. M3 beat it at the track and felt better. Good video. Don't know who the driver was but it was the same driver for both cars.

Isnt the horsechief mile nothing more than a big autocross course?

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by sayemthree

yeah but some instructors can kick a$$ on others still. I didnt see what you said by the OP - went back and still dont see it.

still driver skill rules over the car almost always.

Not sure what your first paragraph means. But the "swap" happened between myself and another instructor.

When I drove my 335i, I was faster. When he drove my car, he was faster.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by sg335

Did you see that UTube video at Horse Theif Mile with the Dinan Stage 3 335i VS the new M3 stock. M3 beat it at the track and felt better. Good video. Don't know who the driver was but it was the same driver for both cars.

Dinan is crap. Honestly. The plates give you 1/2 degree negative camber and the shocks are Koni yellows, I believe. And the power is 30-40 hp lacking compared to a Procede 335i.

And Dinan is missing the LSD, no? The quaife is crucial.

[sg335]

HTM is one mile road course with huge elevation changes. I would have prefered the producer to have run both the Streets and the big track at Willow Springs for a more accurate test given their extra length. Big track for the speed, and Streets for the technical aspect. Don't know what those results would have been.

I think a fully mod'd 335i with the proper goodies could take on the M3 and possibly win. However once you start modding the car with chip, coolers, suspension, lsd, brakes and wheels you come pretty close to the cost of a new M3 if not exceeding the cost. And it won't feel the same. I think it will be kinda like the C63 vs M3 comparisons. The Merc is faster in a straight line and close behind on the twisties, but it just doesn't give the same feedback. That said, if I had a long term 335i, I would mod the crap out of it and have fun beating all those M3's new and old at the track.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by sg335

I think a fully mod'd 335i with the proper goodies could take on the M3 and possibly win. However once you start modding the car with chip, coolers, suspension, lsd, brakes and wheels you come pretty close to the cost of a new M3 if not exceeding the cost. And it won't feel the same. I think it will be kinda like the C63 vs M3 comparisons. The Merc is faster in a straight line and close behind on the twisties, but it just doesn't give the same feedback. That said, if I had a long term 335i, I would mod the crap out of it and have fun beating all those M3's new and old at the track.

Given the opportunity to do it again, would I have gotten the M3? Maybe. It's nice to get a track package out of the box. At sea level, $10-13k into a 335i will make it faster than a new M3 on a road course. As long as you don't go Dinan, lol. You can take the remainder of the difference in price to track your heart out.

By my math, the M3 is $23-25k more expensive than a 335i. $13k in mods will still leave you with over $10,000 savings to spend on tracking it.

At tracks like Miller, it isn't even close due to the altitude and the higher speeds. The ($10-13k modded) 335i just bitchslaps the new M3 around through the straights AND the corners.

[S4to335]

I gotta agree with leftcoastman on one thing..turbo charged cars at altitude rock over normally aspirated. I can see why the modded 335 is a better bet for him.

On thing for me..I couldnt afford the new M3. So, it wasnt really an option for me. Master bathroom and bonus room remodel, plus wifey changing jobs and just getting started has really put a cramp on my automotive expenses.

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by sg335
I think a fully mod'd 335i with the proper goodies could take on the M3

what constitutes a fully modded 335i? and what's it cost?

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by sayemthree

Originally Posted by sg335
I think a fully mod'd 335i with the proper goodies could take on the M3

what constitutes a fully modded 335i? and what's it cost?

Take a look at my earlier posts.

Mods: coilovers, camber plates, wheels/tires, LSD, Procede.

Track proven faster than the new M3 in straights AND corners. Swapped drivers with the same results.

[sg335]

Originally Posted by S4to335

I gotta agree with leftcoastman on one thing..turbo charged cars at altitude rock over normally aspirated. I can see why the modded 335 is a better bet for him.

Better only until the car overheats at any altitude I am fed up with forced induction cars. Had a huge problem with my AMG and now with the 335.

As for mods, lets add on to an average 45,000 335i. Coilovers: 2,500.00. Sway bars: 500.00. Brakes: 4,500.00 (front and rear). LSD: 2,000.00. Camber plates: 500.00. ECU: 1,000 - 2,000.00. Wheels: 600 - 1,000 each or 2,400 - 4,000.00 set. Tires: 1,200.00. Total mods = 14,600 - 17,200. This is without installation.

Now lets take installation. Coilovers: 500 - 1,000.00. Sway bars: 200 - 500.00. Brakes: 500.00. LSD: 800.00. Camber plates: 0.00 (at time of strut install). ECU: 0 - 200.00. Wheels/Tires: 0.00. Total install = 2,000.00 - 2,800.00.

Total mods listed above equals approximately $16,600.00 - 20,000.00. So 45,000.00 + mods = 61,600.00 - 65,000.00, which is about the price of a well equiped M3. This is assuming that you do none of your own labor.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by sg335

Better only until the car overheats at any altitude I am fed up with forced induction cars. Had a huge problem with my AMG and now with the 335.

As for mods, lets add on to an average 45,000 335i. Coilovers: 2,500.00. Sway bars: 500.00. Brakes: 4,500.00 (front and rear). LSD: 2,000.00. Camber plates: 500.00. ECU: 1,000 - 2,000.00. Wheels: 600 - 1,000 each or 2,400 - 4,000.00 set. Tires: 1,200.00. Total mods = 14,600 - 17,200. This is without installation.

Now lets take installation. Coilovers: 500 - 1,000.00. Sway bars: 200 - 500.00. Brakes: 500.00. LSD: 800.00. Camber plates: 0.00 (at time of strut install). ECU: 0 - 200.00. Wheels/Tires: 0.00. Total install = 2,000.00 - 2,800.00.

Total mods listed above equals approximately $16,600.00 - 20,000.00. So 45,000.00 + mods = 61,600.00 - 65,000.00, which is about the price of a well equiped M3. This is assuming that you do none of your own labor.

I'm going to disagree with your math.

I'd definitely subtract a few things off the list. Nix the swaybars. That lops a grand off.

Stock brakes are fine. Lop off another $5,000. With pads and fluid, you're quite well off. I can outbrake almost anyone on track with just that setup.

Wheels are wayyy too expensive. $170 for Kosei K1, 16lbs each.

Tires are also waaaay too expensive. Nitto NT01: $178 each.

[sg335]

Wow where do I buy NT01 at that price

Given your math, then 53,000 - 57,000? Still can buy a base M3.

I don't think you can compare stock 335 brakes with stock M3 brakes. Both cars can upgrade to RBF600 and run ST41pads. A 335 can not "outbrake" an M3 with the same fluid, pads, lines and tires. And it is not the brakes that are the limiting factor, but the tires adhesion cababilities. As for repeatability which is why one upgrades to a BBK, the first few stops don't make any difference as it is all tire, but the more brake cycles a system goes through in a short amount of time, the more fade will be experienced. The smaller the system, the quicker the fade in most cases unless you can shead heat elsewhere with brakes cooling ducts attached to the hub, etc. The M3 has a larger rotor, larger caliper, and better ventilation, all which provide better repeatability. Brembo and Stoptech have proven such facts. So I have to disagree with you there. On the other hand, I did not feel it necessary to upgrade my brakes for the extra money with the mods I made to fluid and pads, but I am sure a BBK would have performed better as it did on my other car significantly on short tight road courses where it shows the most.

Most people don't run their track wheels on the street and very few would run the K1's as their street wheels with R compounds as their daily driver tires, so you need to add more money for the wheels and tires. So maybe 300 - 500 for a nice wheel. Most will stick with top summer max performance tires like the PS2 which really can't be had for less than 1,100.00. So add back a thousand or two. We are at high 50's, close to 60. I'll agree to disagree. Good conversation though.

[leftcoastman]

Tires can be had at discounttiredirect. Free shipping too. I'm on my second set.

I have been told (I should confirm) that the M3 doesn't have the same ducting for the front brakes. Is that true?

With (lol, your!) ST43 pads and RBF600, I was able to run 30 minute sessions at Miller without fade issues. That's a lot of hauling from 145mph down to 60mph entry.

Yeah, I only run K1 on the track. We are talking about track capability here. I just run stock wheels/tires on the street.

My whole point is that if you're looking for track capability, the 335i can be brought to >M3 performance for less than $25k. It can be argued that "M Division" is simply an inhouse modification shop. My "Leftcoastman Division" can do it better for cheaper, lol.

Any additional premium charged by M Division is simply brand equity. And they are in a great position if people are willing to pay tons of money just for a logo without performance to back it up.

Originally Posted by sg335

Wow where do I buy NT01 at that price

Given your math, then 53,000 - 57,000? Still can buy a base M3.

I don't think you can compare stock 335 brakes with stock M3 brakes. Both cars can upgrade to RBF600 and run ST41pads. A 335 can not "outbrake" an M3 with the same fluid, pads, lines and tires. And it is not the brakes that are the limiting factor, but the tires adhesion cababilities. As for repeatability which is why one upgrades to a BBK, the first few stops don't make any difference as it is all tire, but the more brake cycles a system goes through in a short amount of time, the more fade will be experienced. The smaller the system, the quicker the fade in most cases unless you can shead heat elsewhere with brakes cooling ducts attached to the hub, etc. The M3 has a larger rotor, larger caliper, and better ventilation, all which provide better repeatability. Brembo and Stoptech have proven such facts. So I have to disagree with you there. On the other hand, I did not feel it necessary to upgrade my brakes for the extra money with the mods I made to fluid and pads, but I am sure a BBK would have performed better as it did on my other car significantly on short tight road courses where it shows the most.

Most people don't run their track wheels on the street and very few would run the K1's as their street wheels with R compounds as their daily driver tires, so you need to add more money for the wheels and tires. So maybe 300 - 500 for a nice wheel. Most will stick with top summer max performance tires like the PS2 which really can't be had for less than 1,100.00. So add back a thousand or two. We are at high 50's, close to 60. I'll agree to disagree. Good conversation though.

[Park2670]

The E9x M3 does NOT come with brake cooling ducts on the front. Im not exactly sure why.

[sg335]

Your point is well taken. You can have M3 performance with a mod'd 335 for less money, but not by much (all relative). However, I think the M3 will just "feel" better all around and may be a bit more precise. I guess I will find out

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by sg335

Your point is well taken. You can have M3 performance with a mod'd 335 for less money, but not by much (all relative). However, I think the M3 will just "feel" better all around and may be a bit more precise. I guess I will find out

sorry - you can not build an M3 from a 335i for less. plus you void the warranty on a brand new car. plus resale value will not hold up.

chip 1500
intake 500
exhaust 2000
intercooler 1500
upgrade oil cooler 1500
suspension 4000
lim slip diff 5000
big brakes 3000
tires and wheels 4000
body kit
CF roof
warranty

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by sayemthree

sorry - you can not build an M3 from a 335i for less. plus you void the warranty on a brand new car. plus resale value will not hold up.

chip 1500
intake 500
exhaust 2000
intercooler 1500
upgrade oil cooler 1500
suspension 4000
lim slip diff 5000
big brakes 3000
tires and wheels 4000
body kit
CF roof
warranty

Your math is all wrong.

Here's a better analysis:


chip 1500
intake - NO NEED - will be faster than M3 without it.
exhaust - NO NEED - will be faster than M3 without it.
intercooler - NO NEED - will be faster than M3 without it.
upgrade oil cooler - $500 or NO NEED. I've been running stock cooler for 30+ track days, most over 80deg ambient, some over 100ambient.
suspension 4000 - damn right, double adjustables will camber plates...mmm..
lim slip diff - uhhhh $2500 installed
big brakes - NO NEED
tires and wheels $170X4 for Kosei K1, $178x4 for Nittos = $1392
body kit - NO NEED - I'm going for go, not show.
CF roof - NO NEED - I'm going for go, not show.
warranty - You got me there, but I bet BMW NA isn't going warranty a heavily tracked M3 either. Read your fine print.

Point is, again, that the amounts I spent above will result in a car that eats an M3 on the track. Proven.

If you are doing a "show" comparison, you forgot one more thing:

M3 Badge: $12,000

God I wish I could create brand equity like that! I'd be a rich man.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by sg335

Your point is well taken. You can have M3 performance with a mod'd 335 for less money, but not by much (all relative). However, I think the M3 will just "feel" better all around and may be a bit more precise. I guess I will find out

Get that damn M3 already and maybe we can play at Spring Mountain.

Oh and if you guys all want to be humbled. Go against some Z06s on track. Wow. Wow. Wow.

[Park2670]

Where do some of you come up with your numbers? I run my stock 335 and sure I cant keep up with M3s, but I still have a BLAST. Thats all that matters anyway.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by Park2670

Where do some of you come up with your numbers? I run my stock 335 and sure I cant keep up with M3s, but I still have a BLAST. Thats all that matters anyway.

AYYYYYMMIN!

[Dascamel]

So what happens when your going to soon own both? Switch cars every session? I got fed up with the heat issues on the 335i, wife went back to work, so instead of getting another similar car to the 335, decided to go all out. Funny part is I can't drive the M for the first month as part of the deal.
Anyway, with the deals on M3's these days, if you go for a manual I wouldn't be shocked if you got 5k+ off the sticker. Even with the DCT and custom ordered the dealer gave me a great discount.
Now to work on the driver, I'm still the limiting factor on both cars.

[sg335]

[QUOTE=Dascamel;2855995]Anyway, with the deals on M3's these days, if you go for a manual I wouldn't be shocked if you got 5k+ off the sticker. Even with the DCT and custom ordered the dealer gave me a great discount.
Now to work on the driver, I'm still the limiting factor on both cars.

Get that damn M3 already and maybe we can play at Spring Mountain./QUOTE]

Dealer offered me 500 over invoice for a M3 sedan sitting on the lot (cloth interior and few options)

Time to go to spring mountain and rent a lotus or radical. Who's up for the trip?!

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by Dascamel

So what happens when your going to soon own both? Switch cars every session? I got fed up with the heat issues on the 335i, wife went back to work, so instead of getting another similar car to the 335, decided to go all out. Funny part is I can't drive the M for the first month as part of the deal.
Anyway, with the deals on M3's these days, if you go for a manual I wouldn't be shocked if you got 5k+ off the sticker. Even with the DCT and custom ordered the dealer gave me a great discount.
Now to work on the driver, I'm still the limiting factor on both cars.

Damn dude - that slushbox really got to you, huh? I will admit I can barely keep the 6MT cool, I can't imagine what it's like on the slushbox.