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      12-14-2015, 05:26 PM   #1
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E90 HPDE prep?

Couple of my buddys partake in HPDE track days throughout the year. I've done a few lunch time "parade" laps in my 2010 328i E90 and I'm pretty hooked. Sure I'm not out there in a Ferrari or other exotic sports cars like some guys, but I want to have fun too!

My car is basically stock a/t with staggered 19s and H&R sport springs. Ventus V12 Evo2 tires. E90 M3 alignment. Stock brake pad material. Brake fluid flushed with OEM 1000 miles ago.

On the laps I've done around Sebring International Raceway it has the typical E9x understeer, otherwise I'm quite shocked on how well mannered the car handles. My grandma could rip this thing around a road course without effort.

What are some things that I can change on the car, yet keep it daily drivable? I know I need change brake pad material (hawk hp plus?), maybe change out the struts to bilsteins or koni? M3 LCAs? Turner Motorsports also sells cross drilled rotors, would that help?

HPDEs is not "racing" as there are no lap times or winners, but I'd like to go out there with a car that can handle the stresses of going balls out around Road Atlanta, Homestead, or Sebring without worrying about my brakes fading to nothing and or sliding into the grass.

Last edited by Riick; 12-14-2015 at 06:07 PM..
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      12-14-2015, 06:22 PM   #2
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I'm new to BMW but not new to HPDE, so I can give you some general advice.

the 2 biggest things are tires and brakes.

as you start out, the oem pads should work ok. how fast you need to upgrade them depends on how fast you progress as a driver. if you plan on tracking regularly, stainless brake lines are a must. Eventually you'll want to move to track/race pads. maybe a BBK depending on how serious you are and oem brake capability (I'm new to BMW's so I'm not quite sure how good they are).
for track duty you want to stay away from drilled rotors, they tend to crack and not last as long as slotted or blank rotors. In my opinion blanks are the best. Modern brake pads don't really generate a lot of gas like they used to, thats where the whole drilled/slotted rotor thing came from. Popular misconception is that they cool better/faster, that simply is not true. Some people argue that slotted will keep pads fresh as they have an edge to scrub off potentially glazed pad material. That may or may not be true. If you want slotted rotors go for it, there isn't too much of a down side to them vs blank, just stay away from drilled unless you want to be replacing them often.
while checking out my 328, I noticed it has factory brake ducting (this is awesome!). I'm not sure if its a sport package only thing or if all 3's have them, if you're doesn't, I'd recommend getting them, the ducts are like 30 bucks each (had to replace my passenger side). If you track regularly, you'll want to get some brake duct hose and direct the air into the center of the rotor the best you can as the stock ducts just dump air only into the wheel well, not directly to the rotor. I know for other cars, companies sell brake rotor shields to hook up to brake ducts that will aim the air to the center of the wheel, not sure if something like this exists for the 328 in the aftermarket. The reason you want to direct air to the center of the rotor is cause its vented, it had vanes between the 2 halves. as it turns it pumps air from the center of the rotor to the outside, this is how it cools. if you just aim the air at the rotor face, you'll only be cooling one side of the rotor and be getting uneven pad wear. although if this is the best you can do its better than nothing.
and remember, its not about stopping distance, its about consistent stopping distance between your 2nd and 17th lap.

as far as tires, the two important factors are how it holds up to heat and sidewall stiffness. most street tires will get greasy on you as you get faster. as for sidewall stiffness, you don't want your tires rolling over on you as your cornering, you wanna keep the tread on the road, not the sidewall. In a very extreme case a tire can debead and come off the wheel, although I personally have never seen that unless it was caused by the car going off track.
If you want to stay full street tires, I'd recommend Hankook RS-3, Bridgestone RE71R, or BFGoodridge Rival (non S). Dunlop Star Specs are also good but on heavier cars they can get a bit greasy deep into the session. These are what Tire Rack classifies as Extreme Performance tires. There are more tires in this category, but they're more aimed at autocross where staying sticky for 20 minutes sustained isn't an issue. The RE71R is definitely the fastest (nearly on par with R comp tires). But they're pretty new, so not quite yet proven for sustained performance. Most of what I've been seeing they last well for a full session. The Rival is replaced by the Rival S, which is more aimed at autox, stickier but will get greasy on you. I read in some magazine (Grassroots I think) that BFG is gonna keep making both but they seam to be phasing the original Rival out based on availability I've been noticing on Tire Rack.
If you wanna go full Rcomp, Nitto NT01 or Toyo R888 is where its at. There are other's available, but most are a lot more expensive than these two. But feel free to try them if you wish.
As with brakes, starting out, you'll be fine with regular street tires. My only concern is the V12 is known for its soft sidewall... but you definitely don't need to run out and buy new tires to do a track day. Just once you do get a proper set of tires it'll be the biggest difference you feel on track of any mod... except maybe going from stock brakes to a superbadass BBK.

A must for doing a track day is to make sure you have fresh brake fluid (I recommend Torque RT700, but you should be ok with any DOT 4 fluid) and at least half of your pad material still left on your pads. If your alignment is out of wack, you'll want that done too. And if you're getting realigned anyway, ask them to max out negative camber all around. Just in case BMW's are freaks when it comes to oem adjustability, a good starting off point would be -2.5 front and -2 rear. what you actually settle at depends on your particular car, tires, suspension, driving style, etc. from personal experience, most front engine rwd cars settle at around -3 front and -2.5 rear, but like I said that varies.
For toe settings, oem specs are good for a new driver. As you get better you'll prolly wanna play with that too.


sorry for the long post... I'm bored at work
I actually just bought an E90 328i auto as well, I posted in a different thread asking about how the auto holds up to track use... I've never tracked an auto before, but my main concern is it overheating. Not sure how much of an issue this is specifically for this car.
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      12-14-2015, 08:24 PM   #3
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Wow thanks!

The auto is a concern of mine also, but from what I've read it shouldn't be. These cars have a GOOD heat exchanger. Also it's the same transmission as the 335i with 200 less HP and there's guys abusing the flack out of them, idk if that means anything.

My brake fluid was just changed with OEM fluid at the dealership. Instantly noticed quite an improvement in braking around town.

My car just passed 100k miles and even though I've kept up on the maintenance without a hiccup, I know things like my LCR's are getting worn out. The 328's were fluid filled and leak, if you turn right/left while parked and hear a click it's time for new ones (mine click). You can replace with M3 upper/lowers for under $400. Massive improvement in cornering "they say".


This is the HPDE group I'm joining since I have two friends that partake in them: http://www.chinmotorsports.com/
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      12-14-2015, 08:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riick View Post
Wow thanks!

The auto is a concern of mine also, but from what I've read it shouldn't be. These cars have a GOOD heat exchanger. Also it's the same transmission as the 335i with 200 less HP and there's guys abusing the flack out of them, idk if that means anything.

My brake fluid was just changed with OEM fluid at the dealership. Instantly noticed quite an improvement in braking around town.

My car just passed 100k miles and even though I've kept up on the maintenance without a hiccup, I know things like my LCR's are getting worn out. The 328's were fluid filled and leak, if you turn right/left while parked and hear a click it's time for new ones (mine click). You can replace with M3 upper/lowers for under $400. Massive improvement in cornering "they say".


This is the HPDE group I'm joining since I have two friends that partake in them: http://www.chinmotorsports.com/
according to this guy, they're different transmissions (thread below this one)
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=42

If you noticed a difference on street driving with the brake fluid the stuff you had in there must have been really old... haha..

LCR's? do you mean LCA's? if not, what are LCR's? (new to BMW remember )
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      12-14-2015, 08:52 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by warmmilk View Post
according to this guy, they're different transmissions (thread below this one)
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=42

If you noticed a difference on street driving with the brake fluid the stuff you had in there must have been really old... haha..

LCR's? do you mean LCA's? if not, what are LCR's? (new to BMW remember )
Ooops LCA's yeah
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      12-14-2015, 09:07 PM   #6
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Really, the bushings are fluid filled stock? Who's the genius that came up with that idea? seams like a horrible place for a fluid filled bushing...

Since you're wanting to move to M3 parts, do you know if the arms different geometry or just different bushings in them?
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      12-14-2015, 09:10 PM   #7
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The front upper and lower control arms from the E9X M3 are a direct bolt-in replacement upgrade for the stock parts on the non-M E90/E91/E92/E93 3-series and E82/E88 1-series. With the M3 components the fluid-filled bushings of the standard suspension are replaced with solid rubber cores or a sealed monoball-joint, making the suspension stiffer, more responsive, and longer lasting.........adds .75 of negative camber
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-12...t-e82-e9x.aspx

Don't buy them aftermarket from like Rock Auto, you'll get fluid filled non M! TRW only!

Last edited by Riick; 12-14-2015 at 09:17 PM..
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      12-14-2015, 09:20 PM   #8
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http://www.superpro.com.au/find/supe...999500351/vid-

just another option to consider. As I've said before, I'm new to BMW, so don't take my word as gospel, but I've had great experiences with SuperPro on other cars. These also add camber, although being that they're adjustable, you'll want to take your car to someone thats experienced with aftermarket suspension for your alignment, dealer or your run of the mill alignment shop may not know what to do with that unless they have a particularly knowledgeable tech. I'd recommend a race shop (should be plenty in the vicinity of Sebring).

One of the biggest selling points to me about SuperPro is that their stuff has a limited lifetime warranty (limited as in only to original buyer), even with competition use.
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      12-14-2015, 09:35 PM   #9
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My car doesn't have active steering thank god, otherwise getting an alignment from what I've been told is a nightmare most places won't touch it. There's a shop here in Orlando that does a bunch of BMW tuner cars, they're pretty good at it.

PS, those control arms are nice. I like the adjustability and only about $40 more than M3.

I'm going to try and make the Jan. 30th event at Sebring. I guess priority should be making sure the brakes, suspension, alignment are in good working order. The aftermarket goodies can wait.
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      12-14-2015, 09:37 PM   #10
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if you want more camber up front get some adjustable camber plates. you can increase the camber for track days and revert to less camber for daily driving. Just get an alignment with both setups and have them mark the camber plates.

to me the tires and brakes were the 2 things that needed to be addressed the most after a track day. the oem pads started fading very quickly after a few laps. these were 20min sessions and only got worse throughout the day. you could feel the brakes struggling to stop the car later on.

these cars have a lot of weight behind them to so wide tires, not just wheels, will help grip the most within the corners. granted i was on pos run flats at the time, limits were reached very quick and early. the front didn't like to hold so well. i didn't have any rear sliding issues though, even with all traction and stability off.
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      12-14-2015, 10:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
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if you want more camber up front get some adjustable camber plates. you can increase the camber for track days and revert to less camber for daily driving. Just get an alignment with both setups and have them mark the camber plates.

to me the tires and brakes were the 2 things that needed to be addressed the most after a track day. the oem pads started fading very quickly after a few laps. these were 20min sessions and only got worse throughout the day. you could feel the brakes struggling to stop the car later on.

these cars have a lot of weight behind them to so wide tires, not just wheels, will help grip the most within the corners. granted i was on pos run flats at the time, limits were reached very quick and early. the front didn't like to hold so well. i didn't have any rear sliding issues though, even with all traction and stability off.
I had DCT on (short DCT button push, light on dash) and zero rear end instability. I've owned nothing but RWD cars I was expecting it to at least slide out a little, I was trying. Nope. Just the the famous e90 understeer. Of course I'm also short quite some HP compared to you also.

Doing some reading from the AutoX guys, ECS tuning recommends swapping just the rear sway bar the M3 part to fix a lot of the understeer on the E90. Just search for "e90 understeer" and get ready to receive a library of results.

I don't want to go nuts on mods. Nobody is racing, there's nothing to win, no lap times to set. I just want it to stop and corner without any drama from the demands of doing two or three 20 minute sessions around a road course every few months.

Last edited by Riick; 12-14-2015 at 10:18 PM..
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      12-14-2015, 10:29 PM   #12
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if you want more camber up front get some adjustable camber plates. you can increase the camber for track days and revert to less camber for daily driving. Just get an alignment with both setups and have them mark the camber plates.
only thing to watch for here is your toe. sliding your camber plate will also affect your toe. So you'll either have compromise of bad toe for both street and track or good toe for one and bad for the other. and bad toe is the fastest way to chew through your tires.

or you can go with a minor camber adjustment.. still run what would be considered aggressive for the street, but just add in a bit more for the track but that won't mess up your toe too much.

the other thing to consider is how negative camber affects your toe. if going more negative gives you more toe out then you're good, if it goes toe in then its counter productive for the track driving
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      12-14-2015, 10:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riick View Post
Couple of my buddys partake in HPDE track days throughout the year. I've done a few lunch time "parade" laps in my 2010 328i E90 and I'm pretty hooked. Sure I'm not out there in a Ferrari or other exotic sports cars like some guys, but I want to have fun too!

My car is basically stock a/t with staggered 19s and H&R sport springs. Ventus V12 Evo2 tires. E90 M3 alignment. Stock brake pad material. Brake fluid flushed with OEM 1000 miles ago.

On the laps I've done around Sebring International Raceway it has the typical E9x understeer, otherwise I'm quite shocked on how well mannered the car handles. My grandma could rip this thing around a road course without effort.

What are some things that I can change on the car, yet keep it daily drivable? I know I need change brake pad material (hawk hp plus?), maybe change out the struts to bilsteins or koni? M3 LCAs? Turner Motorsports also sells cross drilled rotors, would that help?

HPDEs is not "racing" as there are no lap times or winners, but I'd like to go out there with a car that can handle the stresses of going balls out around Road Atlanta, Homestead, or Sebring without worrying about my brakes fading to nothing and or sliding into the grass.
Bet you $100 you will never drive a single session in an HPDE.

I know this type all too well. "Gotta set up my car for HPDE. It'll need camber. Yeah. I'll need big brakes. The tires are no good. The suspension needs a refresh. I can't keep up with the C7 Corvettes. Gotta get roll bars, harnesses, and seats, because, you know, safety. And oh race car."

I know because I used to be one.

You know what your car needs? A helmet. Because it's not the car that needs work to get on track. It's you.

That car you have, in its current form, is 1,000x more capable than you as a driver. You are the weakest link now, so unless you get a helmet and start attending HPDEs to learn the fine-art of going around in a circle (that includes left and right turns) very, VERY fast, there's nothing you can physically do to your car to make it more "ready than it already is.
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      12-14-2015, 11:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Bet you $100 you will never drive a single session in an HPDE.

I know this type all too well. "Gotta set up my car for HPDE. It'll need camber. Yeah. I'll need big brakes. The tires are no good. The suspension needs a refresh. I can't keep up with the C7 Corvettes. Gotta get roll bars, harnesses, and seats, because, you know, safety. And oh race car."

I know because I used to be one.

You know what your car needs? A helmet. Because it's not the car that needs work to get on track. It's you.

That car you have, in its current form, is 1,000x more capable than you as a driver. You are the weakest link now, so unless you get a helmet and start attending HPDEs to learn the fine-art of going around in a circle (that includes left and right turns) very, VERY fast, there's nothing you can physically do to your car to make it more "ready than it already is.
haha, well aren't you a delight...

if you look just a couple posts above yours he says himself he doesn't wanna go nuts on mods... (sorry, I really wanted to use that emoji )

that why I told him he only needs fresh brake fluid and make sure he has at least 1/2 of his pad material still there. The other stuff I suggested as the first things to look into as he progresses as a driver. As far as the M3 arms (or the SuperPro's), if his bushings are bad, that also something that should be replaced before going on the track... and getting the "more camber" arms for those isn't a big deal... if he does track regularly, he has more camber, if he doesn't its only .75 more, not exactly earth shattering...
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      12-14-2015, 11:21 PM   #15
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deff though you were referring to me hack because i got a notification for it, whoops. i'll still take that $100 though

but he's right, seat time is the best mod. always take an instructor every time you go out. having an instructor with you at all time will be the most beneficial thing you can do at an event.

just get out there, you won't regret. every time i'm out there i have a smile on my face every single lap. especially when someone tosses you the keys to a 700hp gtr



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      12-14-2015, 11:37 PM   #16
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The point of this thread is to not build a race car. It's to enjoy the occasional HPDE. I live within a couple hours of several race tracks (Daytona, Sebring, Homestead) so why not!?

Basic car prep stuff that are needed for such an event like upgraded brake pads, better tires than my evo2's, tire pressure, alignment specs, maybe swap out the control arms and sway bars to M3 parts to combat understeer. That's pretty much it. Nothing crazy, just want it to be reliable and predictable. If I'm the slowest car on the track who cares, sure as hell beats sitting at home playing video games.
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      12-15-2015, 01:18 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Wow thanks!

The auto is a concern of mine also, but from what I've read it shouldn't be. These cars have a GOOD heat exchanger. Also it's the same transmission as the 335i with 200 less HP and there's guys abusing the flack out of them, idk if that means anything.

My brake fluid was just changed with OEM fluid at the dealership. Instantly noticed quite an improvement in braking around town.

My car just passed 100k miles and even though I've kept up on the maintenance without a hiccup, I know things like my LCR's are getting worn out. The 328's were fluid filled and leak, if you turn right/left while parked and hear a click it's time for new ones (mine click). You can replace with M3 upper/lowers for under $400. Massive improvement in cornering "they say".


This is the HPDE group I'm joining since I have two friends that partake in them: http://www.chinmotorsports.com/
Incorrect, 328i autobox is made by GM, while 335i is made by ZF. Completely different transmission, and from my experience driving both cars, the ZF one performs much better (quick and firmer shift, earlier tq convertor lock, better rev-matched downshift).
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      12-15-2015, 01:22 AM   #18
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For beginner, get some good track brake pads (a must), and maybe some good track capable tires (preferably something heat tolerant like Hankook R-S3, but Michelin PSS would work if you dont push too hard), and you will be good for a season, especially with a less powerful and lighter 328i. Change out your brake fluid if it has been there for over a year too.

As much as Hack needs to get off his high chair sometimes, his post got some points. Just drive the damn thing for now. Once you get enough experience, you will know what mods to get anyway
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      12-15-2015, 03:25 AM   #19
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sure as hell beats sitting at home playing video games.
sitting at home playing video games is fun too... although racing games just aren't the same anymore...
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      12-15-2015, 07:46 AM   #20
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Yeah, nothing beats the days of playing the original grand turismo many many moons ago. Those were the days.

Okay quick run down so I can make a list and start punching items out to safely get me out on the track and have a fun day:
  • Brake pads?? Been hearing a lot of good from the Performance Friction Z rated.
  • My front tires are almost on the wear bar, might as well throw some r-s3's on there. The rear I'll keep evo2's for now, they're like new.
  • Replace upper control arm bushings that are clicking (new m3 bushings).
  • E90 M3 alignment okay?

What am I missing?

Last edited by Riick; 12-15-2015 at 10:28 AM..
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      12-15-2015, 10:21 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
As much as Hack needs to get off his high chair sometimes, his post got some points. Just drive the damn thing for now. Once you get enough experience, you will know what mods to get anyway
High horse. High chair is where little babies sit to eat, because they're too short to reach the table. At least get your metaphors right. SMH.

But you know I am right far more often than I am wrong. See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riick View Post
What am I missing?
Helmet.

I'm sorry, if you still can't see the most BASIC needs before you go on track, I can't help you. No helmet, no HPDE, period.

You're obsessed about the wrong things.
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      12-15-2015, 10:33 AM   #22
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Things newbies need:

- Good helmet.
- Fresh brake fluid.
- Alignment check/good visual safety inspection.
- Ensure that you have sufficient tread on tires, and meat on brake pads, and fluids all topped off.

That's about it. The car in stock trim is infinitely more capable than you are. Get an instructor and ask them for advice, not strangers on the internet.
__________________
Streets of Willow: 1:27.7 CW 11/15/15; 1:29.5 CCW 8/15/15 |||| Autoclub Speedway ROVAL (CCW): 1.52.6 - 12/2/17
Willow Springs - Big Willow (CW): 1:35.8 - 3/31/18 |||| Buttonwillow #13 (CW): 1:59.3 1/27/18
https://www.facebook.com/JakeStumphRacing |||| http://www.youtube.com/user/RaceMeMZ3
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