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      01-25-2021, 06:39 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post
"Reducing engine variants and options for different vehicles, scrapping features customers don't use" must be executed very carefully in order not to alienate core customers.
I can tell you already now: BMW doesn't give a rats ass about alienating their core customers, they made a habit about it lately.

They're no longer interested in their loyal customer base. They can't stop humiliating them over and over again actually.
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      01-25-2021, 06:48 PM   #24
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I can tell you already now: BMW doesn't give a rats ass about alienating their core customers, they made a habit about it lately.

They're no longer interested in their loyal customer base. They can't stop humiliating them over and over again actually.
We have a thread over in the F80 "vs" section where we came to this same conclusion b/c of their outrageous marketing campaign is a collective F You to BMW's heritage and loyal fan base.
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      01-25-2021, 06:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
I don't think its EV platforms that are causing EV's to be ugly, manufacturers are simply trying to be aerodynamic as well as space efficient while having their EV's "stand out" more than regular models, and in order to do so, they try to push new and unusual designs on the public.

EV's can still look great and very "ICE" like as the Mustang Mach-E, Model S, and Porsche Taycan have shown us.
When Toyota Mirai was launched, the design caused quite a few eyebrows to be raised. The redesigned 2021 Toyota Mirai looks nothing like its predecessor and for the better. Apparently Toyota listened and appreciated that electric / hybrid / hydrogen powered cars do not have to look visual design experiments conducted by interns.

Based on the latest video of I4 being tested, the vehicle will look like the next generation Gran Coupe - only electrified. I believe BMW is very much aware that transition to EV technology should not be a leap faith for a core customers.

Mercedes? It's unclear what visual design direction has been chosen by its designers. For unknown reasons, EQA has borrowed many contour elements from Balenciaga sneaker (all rights respectfully acknowledged).

PS. VW ID.4 is much more appealing than EQA.
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      01-25-2021, 07:25 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post
When Toyota Mirai was launched, the design caused quite a few eyebrows to be raised. The redesigned 2021 Toyota Mirai looks nothing like its predecessor and for the better. Apparently Toyota listened and appreciated that electric / hybrid / hydrogen powered cars do not have to look visual design experiments conducted by interns.

Based on the latest video of I4 being tested, the vehicle will look like the next generation Gran Coupe - only electrified. I believe BMW is very much aware that transition to EV technology should not be a leap faith for a core customers.

Mercedes? It's unclear what visual design direction has been chosen by its designers. For unknown reasons, EQA has borrowed many contour elements from Balenciaga sneaker (all rights respectfully acknowledged).

PS. VW ID.4 is much more appealing than EQA.
The EQA is a half-baked EV, much like the iX3, its sole purpose is simply to pass EU regulations and to not get fined for producing enough efficient vehicles.

The new EQ products that are on a pure EV platform will have controversial and "futuristic" designs to set them apart from the normal ICE vehicles that will likely have the "look at me I'm an EV" theme that many manufacturers have gone with.
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      01-25-2021, 07:35 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by MFNATIK View Post
We have a thread over in the F80 "vs" section where we came to this same conclusion b/c of their outrageous marketing campaign is a collective F You to BMW's heritage and loyal fan base.
Wow. I just read about some of BMW's marketing campaigns and social media gaffes. I really don't get it. They are "pushing into the future" by alienating their most loyal fan base? Every new Internet company works really hard to get rabid loyal fans. One would think that taking such customers with you on the journey to Electrification would be a good thing. Let's look at the Taycan... Porsche's stated goal for that car was to make it drive as much as possible like a 911. BMW's stated goal for their EV is, umm, what exactly?
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      01-25-2021, 07:38 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post
When Toyota Mirai was launched, the design caused quite a few eyebrows to be raised. The redesigned 2021 Toyota Mirai looks nothing like its predecessor and for the better. Apparently Toyota listened and appreciated that electric / hybrid / hydrogen powered cars do not have to look visual design experiments conducted by interns.

Based on the latest video of I4 being tested, the vehicle will look like the next generation Gran Coupe - only electrified. I believe BMW is very much aware that transition to EV technology should not be a leap faith for a core customers.

Mercedes? It's unclear what visual design direction has been chosen by its designers. For unknown reasons, EQA has borrowed many contour elements from Balenciaga sneaker (all rights respectfully acknowledged).

PS. VW ID.4 is much more appealing than EQA.
The point is actually that EVs have much less technical constraints imposed on the design. Designers have much more freedom to do their thing. We already know from BMW that this doesn't automatically lead to more beautifull cars, the iX might be a good example. It seems now that the technical constraints they had also contained the ugliness of their designs.
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      01-25-2021, 09:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by danf72 View Post
Wow. I just read about some of BMW's marketing campaigns and social media gaffes. I really don't get it. They are "pushing into the future" by alienating their most loyal fan base? Every new Internet company works really hard to get rabid loyal fans. One would think that taking such customers with you on the journey to Electrification would be a good thing. Let's look at the Taycan... Porsche's stated goal for that car was to make it drive as much as possible like a 911. BMW's stated goal for their EV is, umm, what exactly?
The last BMW marketing campaign where 7 series was labeled as a dinosaur in every dimension did not energize the loyal customer base. I sense the ad agency is receiving a stern 360 degree feedback from BMW marketing executives (but we will never know).

BMW is working on the first ever M electric vehicle but the details are sketchy.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/01/19/a...ic-bmw-m-2021/

I hope BMW will get i4 right first.
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      01-25-2021, 09:24 PM   #30
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"...and the German company's plans to increase its share in its Chinese joint venture to 75% from 50% in 2022 should all help push BMW back to its pre-pandemic operating margin target of 8% to 10%."

I thought Brilliance was exploring bankruptcy? Was BMW pressured to save the company?


"...He said that in polls two thirds of Chinese consumers have said they will switch to other brands and products if they provide a better digital experience.. "

Steep hill to climb.


Edit: In 2018 BMW agreed to increase its share in BBA to 75%. Gosh what timing
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      01-25-2021, 10:11 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danf72 View Post
Wow. I just read about some of BMW's marketing campaigns and social media gaffes. I really don't get it. They are "pushing into the future" by alienating their most loyal fan base? Every new Internet company works really hard to get rabid loyal fans. One would think that taking such customers with you on the journey to Electrification would be a good thing. Let's look at the Taycan... Porsche's stated goal for that car was to make it drive as much as possible like a 911. BMW's stated goal for their EV is, umm, what exactly?
But who really is BMW's "most loyal fanbase?" For the longest time I thought it was people like us who live and die with Inline 6s, hydraulic steering, and the ability to row our own gears whether it be a manual or automatic.

In reality BMW's "most loyal" fans over time have been folks who desire a trendy and flashy car. They are better than ever at fulfilling the desires of their customer base.
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      01-26-2021, 12:07 AM   #32
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I would argue that the BMW most loyal customers love driving. It can't just be inline 6's, hydraulic steering and manual transmissions. As the world transitions to EVs, you take those customers with you by offering really good electric driver cars. An M2 EV would get my attention. Or a normal looking 3-series EV with decent range and excellent driving dynamics at an affordable price. It's not that hard. You leverage your established success and brand into the future. And try not to insult your customers along the way.
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      01-26-2021, 12:28 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
But who really is BMW's "most loyal fanbase?" For the longest time I thought it was people like us who live and die with Inline 6s, hydraulic steering, and the ability to row our own gears whether it be a manual or automatic.
In reality BMW's "most loyal" fans over time have been folks who desire a trendy and flashy car. They are better than ever at fulfilling the desires of their customer base.

Whoever is paying for their bills, being a fanboy is not a good thing nor has it ever been. Just like the fanboys among Apple and Samsung it ain't a good thing. If you haven't been part of the tech world for long... oh boy are you in for a rude awakening when it comes to both marketing and how fast companies switch from one thing to another.
It is a company and a company has to survive above everything else. So in that regard if they were following their core fan base of people who live and die for the inline 6 then BMW would have died also.
There is no future for ICE engines and lot of the "core fans" that you are referring to can't accept this, not implying you ain't accepting it.

It doesn't matter if it is the design that changes or the engines changes the so called "core fans" would be screaming for BMW to go back to what it was.

Lets put it this way what if they didn't change the design so drastically but deiced that the current G series of M3/M4 wouldn't come with an ICE engine but the design wouldn't change, the forums would be filled with people crying about how can they loose the ice engine and rinse and repeat.
But then again who knows maybe it turns out that ICE engines can be developed to be 99% efficient but i doubt that because then they would have done that by now.
All though i like the idea of removing all tech from the windows lately to give this full panoramic view doubt that BMW will follow suit with the i4, wish they would remove this red area on more cars. And simply let the windows flow over the roof to the trunk.

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      01-26-2021, 07:29 AM   #34
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What are the compromises of using an adapted ICE-capable platform over a dedicated platform? A dedicated EV platform generally offers the following:

1) Longer wheelbase for a given overall length giving a better ride over lousy roads.
2) More interior space for a given overall length because of cab-forward design and lack of a center tunnel.
3) "Probably" lower weight.

What are the advantages of using an ICE-capable platform over a dedicated EV platform?

1) Possibly lower cost as the platform can be amortized over a larger production run and no need to tool up a completely different production line.
2) The EV's look more "normal" in their proportions. This could be an advantage in the early days of EV adoption for the general buying public.

Early adopters of electric propulsion technology actually welcomed looking "different". Until the general public realizes the greater space efficiency of the EV-specific platform and it's "cab-forward" look, a more traditional look may be an advantage. Remember how VHS won over technically superior BetaMax for entirely non-technical reasons.

Whether intentional, or the result of having current management make lemon-aid out of lemons left by previous Board decisions, BMW may actually fare well in the transition period with these compromised platforms because it's products look so conventional (grills excepted).
cab-forward design is possibly one of the worst trends for automotive design. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't partly responsible for the demise of the sedan. It creates the jellybean look which was so popular in the 1990's and is why I can't stand the look of tesla's. For me it screams cheapness.

It's no coincidence that BMW and Mercedes did so well during this period. They didn't build FWD cars so cab-forward wasn't a thing. .
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      01-26-2021, 09:31 AM   #35
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To me it is simple. I don't care what BMW says about me. What I care about is what kind of car BMW makes, how reliable it is, how it handles, etc. The same for Mercedes, Alfa, Audi, Genesis, etc.

When I am ready to replace my car, I will pick the car that best meets my needs and if that is a BMW, so be it. Right now it doesn't look like a BMW.
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      01-26-2021, 09:44 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
But who really is BMW's "most loyal fanbase?" For the longest time I thought it was people like us who live and die with Inline 6s, hydraulic steering, and the ability to row our own gears whether it be a manual or automatic.

In reality BMW's "most loyal" fans over time have been folks who desire a trendy and flashy car. They are better than ever at fulfilling the desires of their customer base.
I agree. I also don't think the most loyal fanbase provides enough volume to be successful, then their customer base continues to change. They also have to target the volume sectors to have a successful business. The "loyal fan base" of the past is likely to be disappointed as things change and BMW stops offering what some of these people want. I doubt most BMW customers understand the benefits or care about an inline 6 over a V-6 or even a good inline 4.
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      01-26-2021, 12:50 PM   #37
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Is an electric car drivetrain really more expensive than a gasoline drivetrain? Doesn't it have less parts, less complexity, etc. Eventually once car makers pretty much only produce electric cars I'm sure they will have a better margin than with gasoline cars. Does anyone have any data regarding this since I'm not an expert of course? Thanks.
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      01-26-2021, 12:54 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
But who really is BMW's "most loyal fanbase?" For the longest time I thought it was people like us who live and die with Inline 6s, hydraulic steering, and the ability to row our own gears whether it be a manual or automatic.

In reality BMW's "most loyal" fans over time have been folks who desire a trendy and flashy car. They are better than ever at fulfilling the desires of their customer base.
There is also something like Net Promotor Score expressing the loyalty of the customer base. High scores are attributed by customers that are ambassadors for the brand. They are convinced about their preference and are audicious about it: they start convincing peers, family friends because of their enthousiasm.

I'am pretty confident that in the past 20 years, I indirectly sold one extra BMW each year by acting as a brand ambassador (I know since the dealer gives me a call each time somebody drops my name in the showroom). Some of the people buying them are converted ambassadors in the meantime and so the decease spreads more effective than any other mkt campaign.

Brand loyalty and ambassadorship are key, Apple has become the company that it is today because of it.
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      01-26-2021, 04:06 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieguitov View Post
Is an electric car drivetrain really more expensive than a gasoline drivetrain? Doesn't it have less parts, less complexity, etc. Eventually once car makers pretty much only produce electric cars I'm sure they will have a better margin than with gasoline cars. Does anyone have any data regarding this since I'm not an expert of course? Thanks.
Batteries are the most expensive piece.

Google "Update on electric vehicle costs in the United States" and look for a PDF by theicct.org
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      01-26-2021, 04:08 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieguitov View Post
Is an electric car drivetrain really more expensive than a gasoline drivetrain? Doesn't it have less parts, less complexity, etc. Eventually once car makers pretty much only produce electric cars I'm sure they will have a better margin than with gasoline cars. Does anyone have any data regarding this since I'm not an expert of course? Thanks.
Batteries are the most expensive piece. I suspect software is a close second.
Yep, manufacturers are even receiving aid for batteries.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...tery-aid-by-eu
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      01-26-2021, 05:40 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieguitov View Post
Is an electric car drivetrain really more expensive than a gasoline drivetrain? Doesn't it have less parts, less complexity, etc. Eventually once car makers pretty much only produce electric cars I'm sure they will have a better margin than with gasoline cars. Does anyone have any data regarding this since I'm not an expert of course? Thanks.
The electric motors (no transmission) is far simpler to produce, install, maintain and repair. The issue is battery costs but they continue to drop.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/e...rices-outlook/

Quote:
For the first time, prices slid under $100 per kilowatt hour, and thorough analysis shows prices fell a whopping 89% in just 10 years.

Back in 2010, packs rang in at $1,100 per kWh for a reference point. That's a huge drop in what's really not a whole lot of time when it comes to the auto industry. Now, all eyes are on the future to push the price down well past $100 per kWh.
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      01-27-2021, 09:56 PM   #42
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all these electric cars are short term throw away cars. until there is solid state battery and improved infrastructure it will be a hard sell for many folks. How long will it take to produce $25-30k elec vehicle that will last 15-20y i.e. camry replacement and that can be recharged anywhere. and have 300mi range?
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      01-28-2021, 07:22 AM   #43
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all these electric cars are short term throw away cars. until there is solid state battery and improved infrastructure it will be a hard sell for many folks. How long will it take to produce $25-30k elec vehicle that will last 15-20y i.e. camry replacement and that can be recharged anywhere. and have 300mi range?
It'll come. Just think of what it took for the adoption of automobiles over horse-n-buggy. For years both coexisted until automobile prices dropped (Ford Model-T) and roads improved.
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      01-30-2021, 01:17 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post
When Toyota Mirai was launched, the design caused quite a few eyebrows to be raised. The redesigned 2021 Toyota Mirai looks nothing like its predecessor and for the better. Apparently Toyota listened and appreciated that electric / hybrid / hydrogen powered cars do not have to look visual design experiments conducted by interns.
I think that current battery-electric cars are really a transition to hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles, like the Mirai. No matter how good battery and charging technology gets, the time to charge a battery is still much longer than a typical gasoline refuel. And refueling with liquid hydrogen will take the same amount of time as gasoline, and provide similar driving range.

It’s interesting that in the Jason Comissa video where he compared the M2 CS with the MK4 and MK5 Supras (linked on this website), he mentions, several times, that one big reason why BMW built a joint car (Z4/Supra) with Toyota was because BMW wants to use Toyota’s fuel cell technology in a 2022 X5. Honda Clarity is also available as a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, and Hyundai has one coming as well.

The problem, of course, is the lack of hydrogen refueling infrastructure. But unlike gasoline/diesel, which is pumped from a well, transported to a refiner, and transported to distribution stations, hydrogen can be made on-site at refueling stations.

Last edited by RBNetEngr; 01-30-2021 at 01:19 PM.. Reason: Add something I forgot to include
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