[wbbb]

Originally Posted by themetz

Why SHOULDN'T a private education only be the preserve of those who can afford to pay for it?

And don't presume decent is always private - there are plenty of excellent state schools.

Being married to a teacher in the state sector I believe that the quality of teaching itself is equal to, if not actually better, than that received in private education.

However, the 'advantages' that parents pay for are things like:

1) superb sports facilities;
2) the extensive field trips abroad
3) buying into the old boy network

It is these things which are out of reach of ordinary people. My parents couldn't afford to put me through private school. My point is that these things such as decent sports facilities (and not half a playing field with the other half sold to some supermarket or developer) should be available to every school and not just for a private school with all the tax breaks associated with charitable status.

That's all

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by acerboo

surely if you are good socialist shouldnt you be driving a skoda or something i thought bmws were driven by posh people?

Where did I say I was a socialist? That's like saying that everybody that votes Tory is a Fascist.
Posh people drive battered old Range Rovers. Good for transporting the guns and dogs.

I'd like to think that I am the voice of reason.

Pete - your point about the size of the State is spot on - last time I looked over 50% of UK GDP was the State. This means that 50% of GDP is unproductive and non-income producing. This needs to be funded by the other 50% of the economy.

In a golbal economy we are be f**cked.

That is such a good point. In fact I would go further. How many people actually work in industral production rather than the service industries. Probably less than 10%. Now I wonder whose fault that is.

New Labour?
Well they haven't really helped. Keen enough to bail out banks but not so quick to help factory workers.
Why did they not stop the Lloyds and RBS bonuses and use them to save £7billion instead of planning to raise NI.

Tories?

Margaret Thatcher believed that market forces should be given free rein and let the industries go down the pan. Sorted those troublesome unions/Northerners out as well. The only fly in the ointment was the mass unemployed. Never mind 30 years on we can call them chavs and laugh at their funny lives. Except when they are damaging our cars

But of course Maggie created lots of jobs in the Service Industries. That was great until the business leaders realised that they could get all that work done much cheaper abroad. Cue more chavs!

However I digress so back to your point about 50% of people working for the sate. Surely it is better people working for the state than not working and claiming benefits. The only way that the Tories can really cuts costs is to reduce the workforce. So we will still be paying for them but with rubbish public services. Unfortunately the day will come when we will ALL (apart from toffs) need these services.

I have no confidence that Tory policies will lead to more jobs being created . Just more profit for their mates that are writing to the Telegraph.

For all you Reds out there I quote VI Lenin - The way to crush the bourgeois is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.

Couldn't have said it better myself. For those of you that don't remember google tax and inflation during the Thatcher years. Not to mention interest rates. Anybody else remember 12-15% mortgages.

Nice.

You will realise that you've never had it so good!

Discuss!

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by wbbb

Being married to a teacher in the state sector I believe that the quality of teaching itself is equal to, if not actually better, than that received in private education.

That would be because teachers in the state sector have to be fully qualified. Anybody can claim to be a teacher in the private sector.

[peterg1965]

Originally Posted by acerboo

surely if you are good socialist shouldnt you be driving a skoda or something i thought bmws were driven by posh people?

Oh dear, oh dear......... WTF has the make of car you drive got to do with how you vote?? If you had said 30 year old 2CV instead of Skoda it would have meant something!

(but I would say that wouldn't I!)

[themetz]

Originally Posted by wbbb

Being married to a teacher in the state sector I believe that the quality of teaching itself is equal to, if not actually better, than that received in private education.

However, the 'advantages' that parents pay for are things like:

1) superb sports facilities;
2) the extensive field trips abroad
3) buying into the old boy network

It is these things which are out of reach of ordinary people. My parents couldn't afford to put me through private school. My point is that these things such as decent sports facilities (and not half a playing field with the other half sold to some supermarket or developer) should be available to every school and not just for a private school with all the tax breaks associated with charitable status.

That's all

4) lower class sizes
5) greater one-to-one attention
6) better facilities in all areas (not just sports)
7) much wider choice of examination subjects
8) off syllabus education
9) results, results, results

Entirely unfair. But so is the next bloke having a V12 thumping away next to my straight six. Hey-ho.

[wbbb]

Originally Posted by themetz

4) lower class sizes
5) greater one-to-one attention
6) better facilities in all areas (not just sports)
7) much wider choice of examination subjects
8) off syllabus education
9) results, results, results

Entirely unfair. But so is the next bloke having a V12 thumping away next to my straight six. Hey-ho.

That's the answer then - government subsidised M3's for us all

[themetz]

Originally Posted by wbbb

That's the answer then - government subsidised M3's for us all

get it in the manifesto!

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by themetz

4) lower class sizes
5) greater one-to-one attention
6) better facilities in all areas (not just sports)
7) much wider choice of examination subjects
8) off syllabus education
9) results, results, results

Entirely unfair. But so is the next bloke having a V12 thumping away next to my straight six. Hey-ho.

But are the kids happy?

Did you see the program about the 7 year old girls being sent to boarding school? One of the saddest programs I have ever seen. Never mind it'll harden them and it gave mum more time to spend at pub quizzes while daddy was off in Afghanistan.

I do realise that not all Independant Schools have boarders! Having said that forcing boys to wear short trousers and girls to wear capes is getting very close to child abuse! (At least that's what they do round my way.)

PS

I'll have an M3 as well.

[themetz]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

I do realise that not all Independant Schools have boarders! Having said that forcing boys to wear short trousers and girls to wear capes is getting very close to child abuse! (At least that's what they do round my way.)

you have to pay even more to go to a school like that....!

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by themetz

you have to pay even more to go to a school like that....!

Dirty Boy! You'll be sent to matron!

[acerboo]

Originally Posted by peterg1965

Oh dear, oh dear......... WTF has the make of car you drive got to do with how you vote?? If you had said 30 year old 2CV instead of Skoda it would have meant something!

(but I would say that wouldn't I!)

the point is if you sold your nice expensive bmw and bought sat an old 2cv the balance could be used to buy a jobdodger a car so he wouldnt get bored sitting at home smoking weed and drinking beer he could take the wife and 5 kids to the coast for the day!

[ElegantSpoon]

I'm with Peter here what has driving a BMW got to do with it? If you vote for Conservative then your posh? Thats a really clever approach to politics. Well done.

[Teutonicdriver]

I have to say I have given this subject an imense amount of thought. I have considered economic policy, demographics, social issues and lots of other stuff, however the main reason I shall be voting conservative is that in my humble opinion Gordon Brown is a wanker.

[peterg1965]

Well, the poll indicates an overwhelming Tory lead over labour; 66% to 20%. With our completely unrepresentative, ancient and probably unfair voting system that translates into a 20 seat Labour majority.

Also, thinking that the Rt Honourable Gordo Broon MP is a w****r, is a good enough reason to vote Tory in my book!

[beemerbird]

Originally Posted by Teutonicdriver

I have to say I have given this subject an imense amount of thought. I have considered economic policy, demographics, social issues and lots of other stuff, however the main reason I shall be voting conservative is that in my humble opinion Gordon Brown is a wanker.

Lol, that's excellent. I can't be arsed to prattle on about strikes, power cuts, or at the other end of the scale the poll tax or privatisation, that has been and gone and new leaders are running the respective political parties. All I know is that running a country is like running a business and you need business acumen to do so.

As a Civil Servant who has very recently had to endure this Governments 'slashing' of the Public Sector and for once in my career have actually feared I would have to take voluntary redundancy even though our department is an Agency and profit making, (although the housing market slump has eaten into our nest egg of several million pounds), I have to say that traditionally Labour favour the Civil Service. That, however was old Labour, not New Labour.

I grew up amongst many people who are rich basically, went to private schools and got great cars for passing their exams lol, but it hasn't made me envious of them. That said, I don't hold with this attitude of just because I went to a comprehensive or my partner grew up in a council house and does a manual job I 'feel' I should vote labour........I do not and will not pigeon hole myself or have an inferiority complex or apologise for a middle class up bringing.

Where I live the 'monkey' only has to wear a blue rossette and they'll be voted in. My only selfish fear if the Tories win, is what they may do with the Public Sector. Thankfully, it would be very, very difficult for a multitude of reasons to privatise the Department I work in.

Edit: I'll take the M3 then sell it and put it towards something else ta.

[peterg1965]

Helen, for what it is worth, as a uniformed public servant, I share your view that the public sector will be in for a rough ride under a Tory Government - quite rightly in my view. Having said that, I do not think that the 'traditional' public sector/civil service jobs will suffer much (nor should they), it is the modern additions to the public sector, ie quangos/"5-a-day monitor" type people/"outreach workers" et al and those that do not have defined outputs/outcomes etc who need to be worrying. Andrew Landsley said on Newsnight last night that the health sector quangos employ 25,000 people - that is a staggering number and I was gobsmacked, it seems that most of those people (sad as it may be) will become efficiency savings. Even the Armed Forces will pay the price, the Strategic Defence Review, for which everything is in place to start, is expected to result in 20,000 plus military (uniformed) reductions (about 10%), in part this is the Northern Island peace divided for which the Army has yet to draw down from and various other streamlining measures.

I, for one, am an advocate of a much smaller State, there is no question that it is too large and interfering at present.

But I will also take an M3 and an index linked pension, thanks!

[rogerxp]

Originally Posted by peterg1965

I will also take an M3 and an index linked pension, thanks!

If it's 'index linked' you want then the M3 will have to be downgraded to a Kia me thinks

[wbbb]

So the way the Tories want to reduce the budget deficit and make the economy stronger is to, erm, cut 45,000 jobs. I don't think the savings are there which the Tories claim:

"n some senses Marsh says the £2bn saving is realistic overall. There are 5m public sector jobs in total in the UK, and about 400,000 of those jobs become available each year. So 40,000 jobs would represent less than 1 per cent of the public sector workforce anyway.

But saving £1bn-£2bn in 2010/2011 – in less than 11 months by the time the new government is formed – represents a difficulty.

Gershon’s own savings plan for Labour was the subject of a report by the National Audit Office last autumn which found only 25 per cent of savings identified by departments were concrete, 50 per cent were questionable and 25 per cent were not tenable.

That shows that such grand savings plans are far from a precise science.

The verdict
Marsh’s analysis of the Gershon/Tory claims speaks volumes. Although he does think the £2bn saving is achievable by leaving posts unfilled and cutting agency and consultancy costs, he makes a valid point that prudent HR managers up and down the country will already have been using this process of “natural wastage”.

That, and the fact that this saving could not be initiated from day one of a new government, suggest the process might be rather more painful than the Tories imply."

source: Channel 4 news

[Steve A]

Mark my words we will all be sorry if David Cametosoon becomes PM...

[F31-340i]

Originally Posted by Steve A

Mark my words we will all be sorry if David Cametosoon becomes PM...

+1

As per some posts above, everyone seems to have a frying pan fixation, and assumes the fire must be better place to sit. It won't be!

Voting Con because you hate brown is not a good reason to let them in!

[beemerbird]

Originally Posted by ///ajd

As per some posts above, everyone seems to have a frying pan fixation, and assumes the fire must be better place to sit. It won't be!

Voting Con because you hate brown is not a good reason to let them in!

Not me. Never voted Labour and can't see that I ever would. My personal choice - end of.

Besides which it's a fool who believes politically if there is actually that much in reality between the Tories and New Labour. Old Labour had to die because the down trodden working classes thankfully no longer exist in the huge numbers they once did. The old and archaic rigid class system in this country has if not entirely disappeared, certainly diminished significantly. Most modern thinking peoples views have also changed and they no longer feel obliged in voting by sticking to their 'roots'. Thankfully both snobbery and worse still, inverted snobbery appears to be dwindling.

[AlanQS]

Hear hear!
The traditional class divide started to fade in the late seventies/early eighties when the old fashioned social belief (in Scotland anyway) was that owing your own house made you a capitalist and a tory and therefore beyond the pale.

People from what was once called working class found that they could use whatever abilities they had to get on in the world and there appeared to be no artificial obstacle to their achieving their goals - so they went for it.

Since then, the old fashioned obvious markers between middle class and working class, (speech, the way a knife was held) and so forth have melded together so that successors to the old middle or working class, shared these characteristics randomly. The upcoming generation, I think, will kill it off entirely.


But something new will take it's place....