[nany82]

8/1: see POST #20 for lengthy but complete update. Thanks to all!!!

UPDATE coming soon, sorry been super busy with this situation, and my regular life. Just want to say thanks for all the input and support!!!

Hi All,

I could really use some advice/opinion. I would have been introducing myself as the owner of an new ordered Le Mans Blue 335xi, M Sport Package. However, yesterday when I go to take delivery on the car, I noticed white specks (looks almost like water stains, but are not) in many places underneath the first layer (clear coat?). Some areas of the car are worse than others.

Breakdown:
I arrived at the dealer and saw the car briefly in the service area dropoff (indoors). Inside you could not see any imperfections, and it was just about ready. So, my CA brings me in to sign all the paperwork (finance agreement, trade-in, pay down payment). Once we were done, he gave me the keys and told me to move it to just outside the indoor service area in the shade so we can begin the "tutorial"(intro to the car and all the features). Once the outdoor natural lighting hit the car, I gave it another look and that's when this nightmare began. I saw all the spots in different areas of the car and its not superficial because no amount of rubbing/cleaning takes it off.

I brought it to my CA's attention and he was dumbfounded and stated he didn't see that inside either. So the manager comes, and at first they wanted me to bring the car back during the week, but after taking pictures and really looking into the matter, I refused to even drive the car off the lot. They took pictures as well. They were closing and the manager was acting like he didn't have a loaner, but they found one (beat up and dirty as all sin) and gave me that, while they try to resolve the issue (whatever it is). No one seemed to know immediately, but they gave me (at my request) a "WE OWE" slip stating that the car will be re-detailed under the clear coat! As I understand it, the paint still has to "cure" and should not be touched. Wouldn't this involve buffing, wet sanding or polishing? Also, wouldn't this qualify as a repair/bodywork? If so, I don't want to spend my hard-earned money on a refurbished/fixed car when I waited 7 weeks for a factory fresh, customized-to-my-liking vehicle.

They told my family who was with me to please be patient and they will fix it or BMW will, even if they have to get a new car out. Right now I'm leaning towards the new car, but should I be getting it for a less price? Since now I'm looking at another 2 month wait and the 2012s are here or almost here and technically the car (2011) will be a year old already. Plus, all this inconvenience. Maybe they should be giving me a 2012 at the price I got (It was an good, not great deal, from what I'm told)? I also traded in an STi (which I've had nothing but bad luck with) and I am definitely not taking back. Am I entitled to the loaner until I get my car? Otherwise I have no car. I'm sooooooo frustrated right now.

The loaner car is a joke not just compared to what I ordered but just as a car in general. There isn't one panel that isn't damaged, it smells bad and is DIRTY . I have always kept a clean car whether it was my corolla, 318i, or STi. Hand wash only and 3-4 times a month. Even when I've borrowed a car from a friend/family I take it to the wash!

Again, I already went through all the paperwork (signed contract/finance agreement, left total down). I just never drove it off the lot. So I guess what I need is ideas on how to approach the situation, so I'm protected and ready. Any experience, ideas, opinions, and/or advice is GREATLY appreciated. Sorry for the session.

PICTURES: https://picasaweb.google.com/nany82/July232011

The thing is that the spots that look like water spots but are not, were visibly under the surface/first layer, which I'm guessing is the clear coat. There was also wax on the seams and you can see the texture and it was ON TOP of the clear coat. And when I tried cleaning the spots with a cloth, they still wouldn't come off. The dealership had to keep the car because I was definitely not taking it off the lot like that. EVEN they acknowledged the spots were within the clear coat (on paper) and now they are saying it wasn't.

I will meet with the GM hopefully tomorrow. I just don't want them to try to BS me and win.

I guess I want to know what you guys would say if it were you talking to the GM.



Thanks in advance!

[MikesBMW]

crazy, thats definitely not metallic flake. maybe have a really good detailer look at it and see if he's seen anything like it before and if it can be fixed, if so have the dealer pay for it in full and provide some sort of guarantee on the paint, if it can't be fixed then get a new car from them, definitely don't let them repaint any panels because it might show up on a carfax and probably won't end up looking factory new

[Dickson]

I would say no thanks and walk away from that car.

[churchillps]

Wow that is horrible. Probably am awful feeling to wait 2 months and finally feel like you're about to drive home your brand new car..and then see that

[Buegie]

As hard as it might be, I would walk. If the spots are really under the clear the only way to fix it is a respray, which is not something I'd like to do to a brand new car. Hopefully they don't try to hold you to the deal since you say you signed everything.

[Neutrino45]

You should get a new car and have them give you a clean loaner while you wait. That's the least they can do for you.

[Envious Eric]

NEW CAR!!!! If they SAND out all the specs, you will have less clear on your car obviously, so you are not getting a FULL car "so to speak". Plus their detailers will more than likely suck and screw things up.

Even if you signed for a brand new car, the car you are getting will not be brand new and therefore you will probably be able to get out of the deal.

I would refuse delivery

[nany82]

Thanks guys, any suggestions on what to say or how to go about it with the GM?

Any detailers have input/advice?

[Wingman335]

Originally Posted by nany82

.... As I understand it, the paint still has to "cure" and should not be touched. Wouldn't this involve buffing, wet sanding or polishing? Also, wouldn't this qualify as a repair/bodywork?...

The factory paint comes cured, so there is not cure time required, and can be detailed without any issues. When a body shop paints a panel, that's when you need to give it 3 weeks to cure.

If it does involve buffing, wet sanding, and polishing, it's simply considered a detailing job. If the panels are being resprayed, then it qualifies as a repair/bodywork.

Nevertheless, if those imperfections are under the clearcoat, I cannot imagine how the dealership can remove them, but they may have some method. Make sure you ask what they plan to do and make clear that you do not want a car that has been resprayed.

[spanner1751]

Since the spots are also on the door trim, my guess is that something happened after the car was painted. It almost looks like oil slick colors on the window trim.
Whatever it is, I wouldn't have accepted delivery either.

[driverman]

Maybe some lawyers can chime in. My understanding is there are 2 key points here...

1. Whether or not the defects are under the clearcoat.
2. Whether or not the dealer sent the registration to DMV. If not, I think the deal is reversible by tearing up the papers. If so, the car has been SOLD and things are more complicated.

If the answer to the 1st question is yes, I wouldn't want the car. Therefore, if the answer to the 2nd question is yes, you will need a lawyer if the dealer isn't cooperative.

If the answer to the 1st question is no, I would let them detail it and reserve the right of refusal after a detailing/paint expert inspects the paint on your behalf, including paint thickness tests all around the car.

I don't blame you for being upset. You went from the excitement of picking up your new car to the bad situation you find yourself in. Heaven to hell.

[Bobble]

^ +1 and would include if having someone read the paint thickness, read them for any other NEW car on the lot as a base figure. Buying a new car with a lot of it's clearcoat already removed to get rid of defects is no bueno in my book.

[MenTul]

I'm seeing spotting on the windshield glass in this pic. I'd hazard a guess that the problem may not be at point of manufacture but part of the detailing process by the gorillas at the stealership or done during transport.

Good news is that if its visible on the windshield glass, then its probably not "under the clearcoat"

[MFitz_NH]

A few years ago I purchased a 2006 STi that had been crashed while racing at Mt. Tremblant. Long story short, the windshield, fender, roof and some of the trim had very similar spots to what is in the pictures. When the owner hit the wall, the battery shattered and the acid deposited in small droplets on the paint and such. The acid literally etched through the top surface. It's doubtful that it could have come from your battery, but could the transport truck battery been leaking?

Fitz

[Cosmin]

looks like something was spray on it for sure.
as brand new car is unacceptable!

as fixing it ... some finish polish should clean it up if was any detailer`s spray.
i had someone calling me before with some stain on white paint from tire dressing used at corner wash. so i wouldn`t be surprise if the dealer prep/detailer used low end products

[nany82]

UPDATE coming soon, sorry been super busy with this situation, and my regular life. Just want to say thanks for all the input and support!!!

[churchillps]

Originally Posted by driverman

Maybe some lawyers can chime in. My understanding is there are 2 key points here...

1. Whether or not the defects are under the clearcoat.
2. Whether or not the dealer sent the registration to DMV. If not, I think the deal is reversible by tearing up the papers. If so, the car has been SOLD and things are more complicated.

If the answer to the 1st question is yes, I wouldn't want the car. Therefore, if the answer to the 2nd question is yes, you will need a lawyer if the dealer isn't cooperative.

If the answer to the 1st question is no, I would let them detail it and reserve the right of refusal after a detailing/paint expert inspects the paint on your behalf, including paint thickness tests all around the car.

I don't blame you for being upset. You went from the excitement of picking up your new car to the bad situation you find yourself in. Heaven to hell.

General rule (bluntly paraphrasing) is you have to have have time to discover defects. It's industry standard to sign in the dealership, and if his car wasn't in the sunlight there's no way he could have known of the defects. Figuring it out 5 minutes after signing certainly doesn't force the dealer to incur substantial hardship. Plus, this really isn't a signing issue, it's a warranty/deceptive trade practice issue (statutorily in several states) that would give rise to any action on OP's part if stealership decided to act like dicks (which it doesn't sound like they will).

[ZURICH]

Hi guys, this looks like an airborne contaminant "Acid Rain" as we call it in Europe, usually caused from fallout from a factory chimney stack, Commercial incinerators are the usual suspects especially toxic waste or even Hospital waste can produce this crap if the PCB stage burners and filters are faulty. I would be checking localy for the culprit as if in the US as here the cars come off transport with 3M film on the top pannels so if roof is spotted the it happened after the car was preped! Just a few thoughts, I hope they help. Hope you sort it out soon.

[ceb]

Originally Posted by Wingman335

Nevertheless, if those imperfections are under the clearcoat, I cannot imagine how the dealership can remove them, but they may have some method.

Simple. Lift up clearcoat, remove spots, lay down the clearcoat - done.

If it is under the clearcoat then you cant fix it without a respray.

[nany82]

UPDATE:

So I went in Monday morning at 8:45, and the sales manager who I dealt with on Friday was the only one there. The GM was running late and I had to be at work by 11:00. So after seeing me and making me wait while he was on his cell phone, he decides to approach me after I am looking for a way to access my car which is in a display garage. Once in the sunlight, I was able to see that there were still spots left! Wouldn’t someone make it there business to check this over not once, not twice, but three times to say the least? Shouldn’t that manager been on his knees and tippy toes checking all aspects of the car to ensure the job was done to perfection. I’ve truly had better customer service at any fast food spot. So not only does he let himself look bad again, but he plays HARDBALL with me. He tells me I’ll have to let him get the rest out or there’s no other remedy. At this point, I’m livid and I demand a paint meter, I want to know exactly what was done thus far, and I’m already telling him I want another car. His lack of concern definitely fueled my anger at this point. All throughout, he keeps cutting me off and talking in a slightly condescending manner. And with everything that has happened I’m just in shock. One of the detail guys comes outside with a cotton rag and some clear/cream colored liquid and applies it to an area with the spots and then wipes over it with a microfiber cloth. To my surprise, it’s completely GONE, even though when you rubbed over a spot nothing happened. So whatever it was be it acid rain or bad wax or another substance from the environment, it was off my car. At this point, the only issue left is their negligence. As I discuss this with the manager, he boldly states that I can take my trade in and walk. So they had my trade-in, my down payment ($13,000 which they had already cashed), and all my time I waited to even get the vehicle. I never once tried to walk from the deal, I gave them money, all I wanted and was owed was a car. After basically telling me he doesn’t want to hear my frustrations thus far with the dealership, he states he will have the guy go over the still affected areas and offers me a free detail.

So I go with it, I tell him I have no time to wait for the car now as I need to rush to work. He gave me a problem for the loaner, telling me that it is already “spoken for” and that he will see if I can keep it until Wednesday which is when I can pick up my car. So now in his eyes, he’s doing me a favor with the loaner even though they have been wasting my time and giving me attitude. I decide to speak with the GM about this whole experience. I explain everything to the GM and he’s more apologetic about the situation and offers me a car care kit, free unlimited washes (in a machine with rags, with a value of $15), a written guarantee that any premature/uneven wear in the clear coat as a result of what happened will be covered by them, and the free detail (value of $150). I was hesitant and accepted. I ALWAYS wash my cars by hand. So after thinking about it I call him back and ask if I can give up the car care kit and free washes for 2 details a year. If you do the math, weekly washes ALONE amount to $7800 over ten years, whereas the details will cost them only $3000. I figured I’m saving them money but I would rather that then put my car in a grimey machine wash. The GM is short with me and stated he’s not changing anything, and that’s final. So I had no option but to give up.

Later on that night, I’m checking my car loan online and see that it still has not been paid off! It’s Wednesday night (loan is due the next day) and they had my trade in and down payment since last Friday. I call my bank and they tell me nothing is pending and I will default if no payment is received by the due date. So I write an email to the GM thanking him for two failed deliveries, attitude from the sales manager, taking my trade in, cashing the down payment, and not paying the loan off for my trade in; this transaction is of course all at the cheap price of $55,000. I ask when is it my turn “to put my foot down”, since he had no problem doing so when I asked to change the things he was offering for all my inconveniences. I go to bed and anxiously await his reply. He’s rude and short in his reply and says that they didn’t pay the loan because I didn’t take the car. WHY would I accept a car like that? I could have pulled out of the deal right then and there, well actually no because the deposit is non-refundable as per their paperwork and the financial agreement was ALREADY signed. They already cashed the down check and had my trade in to do as they wished. I was all in and they could care less about delivering on their end.

Seeing that I have no other recourse, I try my last option. I call a former sales manager of that particular dealership, he’s now the GM at another one of their locations/brands and my parent’s had just purchased a car from him 3 weeks prior. He’s known me at least 8 years and I explain everything and he’s in shock and says he will have another manager call me, before I try to take this to the owner of these dealerships. The manager that calls is apologetic, well-spoken, and willing to work towards me being completely satisfied not only with the car but with the dealership. So I got free car washes for as long as I own the car, 2 free details a year for as long as I own the car, and the car care kit. He explained the car washes are the same used for their new vehicles prior to delivery and they change out some parts every month because they can’t scratch the cars they need to deliver, makes sense I guess. At any rate I got the 2 details/year, which is what I really needed since I will stick to my hand car washes. I may use the wash in an emergency or during winter in between the weekly hand washes. I still have a bad taste in my mouth and don’t know if they’ll get my business again. I won’t put them on blast here just out of respect for the manager that finally came through.

Thanks for all the input and concern!!!!! Sorry this took a while to write.

[MuttGrunt]

If your happy and satisfied at the end, that's the most (and only) important thing. I'm glad things worked out.

[Envious Eric]

glad things worked out, but still dont take them up on the detail offer....at least not if you care about the car still. rotary in the wrong hands, greasy products used on the interior and overall, a waste of time.

I would still refuse that particular car, try and get in touch with the OWNER of the dealership, explain your side of things, lose the down payment if any and try to get the GM of the other dealership (why you didnt go there in the first place is beyond me) and work some numbers with him. Rent a car for a couple of months (probably same price as your car payment or less) and wait for a new car that hasnt had the clearcoat problems BEFORE delivery.

Thats what I would do anyway