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      01-21-2018, 10:15 AM   #1
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2nd Trackday (and now 3rd) - This time vibrating brakes

Had my second trackday yesterday at Oulton park, overall a great day as always even in the terrible weather we had.

On my first trackday I took my completely standard 335i and cooked the brakes so shortly after I had new discs put on (OEM style Brembo plain discs), EBC Yellowstuff and Motul 600 fluid.

Needless to say, i was pretty excited to try out these upgrades on the track but within two laps I had crazy vibrations coming through the steering wheel. I could do maybe 1-2 laps with OK braking, not amazing, with slight vibration but 3 laps + and it would just get worse.

I don't know if the weather conditions have something to do with this, very wet and about 1C temp but neither I or everyone else could really understand what was going on, it didn't feel like I was slowing down all that well either. I should point out I did do the bedding in procedure and this upgrade is only 6 months old with otherwise gentle commuting. Cant say I notice any vibration in normal driving.

Any ideas guys? Not set up correctly somehow? Discs warped within 3 laps, surely not!? To say I was disappointed yesterday would be an understatement, the car did not give me much confidence at all.
On the plus side, I did get some passenger laps in a GT3RS which was absolutely fantastic!

Last edited by AD18; 02-18-2018 at 09:47 AM.
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      01-21-2018, 10:19 AM   #2
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I should add, I had a passenger come in with me to see if he could notice. First few laps again I could feel some vibration through the steering whilst braking and he said he couldn't tell from passenger side. A few laps later and during braking he could then feel the vibrations from his side too.
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      01-21-2018, 01:21 PM   #3
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them brembo/mintex/mtek etc are just all made in same factory,,and are not brembo,,if you want brembo you have to pay brembo money..not cheap,,but id suggest going bigger calipers,ie 6 pot k sport or similar and yellowstuff/bluestuff/ferrodo etc..the owner of kms motorsport who sells brake set ups and other after market stuff/work informed me of the under license makers of discs,,
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      01-21-2018, 01:54 PM   #4
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99.9999999% your rotors are not warped, it just does not happen anymore. You have pad deposits or hot spots and you can either have them turned or replace. Best setup I have found for my car ( hard autobahn high speed braking) are oem premium pads and rotors. Oem premium pads do not fade and do not leave deposits like many aftermarket pads.
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      01-22-2018, 08:14 AM   #5
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yeah your vibrating is being caused by pad deposits. BMW brakes are shite for track work, and overheat massively, easily. It even carries through to the e9x M cars too.

Shame really as i really want to track my car (i live 2miles from Oulton Park) but don't want to spend DOLLAR on a BBK.
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      01-22-2018, 04:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rasa bmw View Post
them brembo/mintex/mtek etc are just all made in same factory,,and are not brembo,,if you want brembo you have to pay brembo money..not cheap,,but id suggest going bigger calipers,ie 6 pot k sport or similar and yellowstuff/bluestuff/ferrodo etc..the owner of kms motorsport who sells brake set ups and other after market stuff/work informed me of the under license makers of discs,,
Quote:
Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
99.9999999% your rotors are not warped, it just does not happen anymore. You have pad deposits or hot spots and you can either have them turned or replace. Best setup I have found for my car ( hard autobahn high speed braking) are oem premium pads and rotors. Oem premium pads do not fade and do not leave deposits like many aftermarket pads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by abeardo83 View Post
yeah your vibrating is being caused by pad deposits. BMW brakes are shite for track work, and overheat massively, easily. It even carries through to the e9x M cars too.

Shame really as i really want to track my car (i live 2miles from Oulton Park) but don't want to spend DOLLAR on a BBK.
Hmm ok thanks for the replies. I did think the "Brembo" discs were just a standard type and not really an upgrade. I haven't come across the term hot spots before, is that still some sort of overheating of the discs?
I noticed when I drove the car today that the initial bite has now gone, they feel 'slippery' as if there isn't much friction between the pad and disc.
If it is pad deposits, can this be removed if I bed the brakes in again? Is this where drilled or slotted discs reduce this?
Definitely agree with BMW brakes being p*** poor. I left the day thinking to maybe change the car to something else, but like you say even with an M3 I'd still need to pour money into it for the brakes to last a trackday
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      01-22-2018, 04:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
99.9999999% your rotors are not warped, it just does not happen anymore. You have pad deposits or hot spots and you can either have them turned or replace. Best setup I have found for my car ( hard autobahn high speed braking) are oem premium pads and rotors. Oem premium pads do not fade and do not leave deposits like many aftermarket pads.
Can you elaborate on what OEM premium pads are as well. Is this a BMW Performance part?

Thanks
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      01-22-2018, 04:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AD18 View Post
Can you elaborate on what OEM premium pads are as well. Is this a BMW Performance part?

Thanks
Yes, BMW offers standard aka "premium" and a "value line" you should avoid the value line. These are not BMW performance parts.
After running a couple off brands I will only run the oem pads and rotors on my car and I am not gentle nor do I drive slow.
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      01-22-2018, 04:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AD18 View Post
Hmm ok thanks for the replies. I did think the "Brembo" discs were just a standard type and not really an upgrade. I haven't come across the term hot spots before, is that still some sort of overheating of the discs?
I noticed when I drove the car today that the initial bite has now gone, they feel 'slippery' as if there isn't much friction between the pad and disc.
If it is pad deposits, can this be removed if I bed the brakes in again? Is this where drilled or slotted discs reduce this?
Definitely agree with BMW brakes being p*** poor. I left the day thinking to maybe change the car to something else, but like you say even with an M3 I'd still need to pour money into it for the brakes to last a trackday
BMW brakes are not poor.
Slotted and drilled reduce surface area and more surface area equals more friction and better stopping.
Yes, hot spots are where the rotors have heated up and become harder in certain areas and cause the pads to skip across the rotor (crazy vibrations). I have a picture of a pair of rotors I smoked on mine after chasing an e60 m5. Had to slow REALLY hard to make my autobahn exit. I will see if I can find one of the pics.
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      01-22-2018, 04:40 PM   #10
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These are hot spots.

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      01-23-2018, 02:38 AM   #11
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as above forget drilled/slotted/grooved..they are just for show on street cars..racing "yes" id go for red stuff or yellow stuff pads..red stuff are cheaper,,ive had them on my stage 2 focus st..good bite from cold and never had any brake fade like i can on my e46 with spirited driving(lots of heavy braking)..they do wear out quicker though,the discs were ebc slotted and grooved(on car when i bought) then i went with what was reccomended by some motorsport companies ie KMS/A AND k ..and was ford discs with either red stuff or motorcraft pads.ebc and ultimax pads are quite reasonable ie 400 for 4 corners for my e90 330d and a fraction more for red/yellow pads...
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      01-24-2018, 04:23 AM   #12
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Hello

So I feel qualified to advise here.

Before my last track day I had 4 new disks and ebc yellowstuff pads.

I went with standard disks after reading on various forums that disks wont warp. However 2 laps in same symptom as you. However I thought this may be deposits so I pushed on and the vibration went away after about 5 laps of hard braking.

However after 6 months and massive vibrations garage confirmed my disks were indeed very warped, so the track day obviously had a large impact.

Last week I swapped to mtec drilled and grooved and no more vibration.

Speaking to a lmp2 race engineer over the weekend the warpage could have been my fault. He said at first you need to take it slowly to allow the brakes to heat up gradually. If you go from 0 to 100 straight away (as I did, if you compare road braking to track braking) then new disks can warp.

Said race engineer is coming with me for the next track day and is hopefully going to install some ducting to assist with the cooling of brakes.
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      01-24-2018, 05:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazkirby View Post

So I feel qualified to advise here.


However after 6 months and massive vibrations garage confirmed my disks were indeed very warped, so the track day obviously had a large impact.
Nothing personal here but I find your fist line funny as you have no validation statement to follow it with.

Standard statement for most garages. I would question any garage. "How did you measure the variance?" 90% of garages will state warped for disks with hotspots and deposits. It is profit to replace rotors instead of turning/resurfacing them and most places don't even have the capability to resurface rotors anymore.
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      01-24-2018, 08:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AD18 View Post
Hmm ok thanks for the replies. I did think the "Brembo" discs were just a standard type and not really an upgrade. I haven't come across the term hot spots before, is that still some sort of overheating of the discs?
I noticed when I drove the car today that the initial bite has now gone, they feel 'slippery' as if there isn't much friction between the pad and disc.
If it is pad deposits, can this be removed if I bed the brakes in again? Is this where drilled or slotted discs reduce this?
Definitely agree with BMW brakes being p*** poor. I left the day thinking to maybe change the car to something else, but like you say even with an M3 I'd still need to pour money into it for the brakes to last a trackday
BMW brakes aren't poor for the road - just the track. Unless you're driving like a loon on the road, you shouldn't get OE brakes to fade. You can end up with deposits on the discs though, if you brake hard / prolonged, and then sit at the lights with your foot on the pedal.

Hot spots occur when uneven brake pads cause areas on the brake rotor to heat up, now this can cause more aggressive brake wear but it can also cause vibration and noise.

Your 'slippy' feeling will be a glazed pad / disc. If it's the pad, you'll need to take em out and scuff them (sandpaper / scrape on the concrete a bit). If it's disc, then you'll need to go through the bedding in process again.

Drilled discs are to reduce weight. Slotted discs may help to keep a pad deglazed, but i think they look poo.
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      01-24-2018, 10:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
Nothing personal here but I find your fist line funny as you have no validation statement to follow it with.

Standard statement for most garages. I would question any garage. "How did you measure the variance?" 90% of garages will state warped for disks with hotspots and deposits. It is profit to replace rotors instead of turning/resurfacing them and most places don't even have the capability to resurface rotors anymore.
Wrong choice of phrase, perhaps I should of said experienced with said issue, rather than qualified.

As far as I was concerned I had deduced it could not have been deposits because Id repeated the rebedding process many times with 0 difference. Thus my aim was to confirm there was something wrong with the disks (not suspension), which was confirmed. Rather than go for a resurface I decided to buy new, and part of that was for looks.
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      01-25-2018, 05:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
These are hot spots.
Ok so I don't think I've got that, it might be more pad deposits then. So is the key to have the discs warm up before pushing harder on track? I did do a gentle first lap before going faster but maybe the brakes were still cold.
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      01-25-2018, 05:03 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abeardo83 View Post
BMW brakes aren't poor for the road - just the track. Unless you're driving like a loon on the road, you shouldn't get OE brakes to fade. You can end up with deposits on the discs though, if you brake hard / prolonged, and then sit at the lights with your foot on the pedal.

Hot spots occur when uneven brake pads cause areas on the brake rotor to heat up, now this can cause more aggressive brake wear but it can also cause vibration and noise.

Your 'slippy' feeling will be a glazed pad / disc. If it's the pad, you'll need to take em out and scuff them (sandpaper / scrape on the concrete a bit). If it's disc, then you'll need to go through the bedding in process again.

Drilled discs are to reduce weight. Slotted discs may help to keep a pad deglazed, but i think they look poo.
Thanks, yes agree, for the track I don't find them particularly good but for the road they are perfectly fine. I have re-bedded them in and it seems to have cured this slippery feeling and now I have better initial bite.
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      01-30-2018, 03:44 PM   #18
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I have the same issue which seems to have arisen after some hard road driving.

New Ferodo discs and Brembo pads on the car in December 16. Now I get some pulsation through steering and pedal with hard braking at higher speed and with normal braking an uneven feeling through the seat of the pants, like the pulsation but at a lower frequency. It isn't too significant and I can live with it for now, though as it has been like this since November - with plenty of hard braking since, I don't see how the cause can still be pad deposits, rather than warped discs.

One of the front calipers was seized and replaced when the discs were replaced. Part of me thinks it may be an imbalance in caliper effectiveness - though the discs always feel the same temperature to the hand after driving, so the old caliper doesn't seem to be binding.

Not sure which parts to go with next.
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      01-30-2018, 04:28 PM   #19
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From personal experience the EBC pads aren’t great with anything other than their own discs. They seem to cause more issues than most from what I’ve seen and experienced. But of course that’s just personal opinion.

You can warp discs and it does happen so isn’t just something garages tell you to make money.
It does sound like pad deposition and glaze but could well be warping from extreme sudden heat at the track day.

Very difficult to tell without seeing them / experiencing them in person but there’s a few things to check now.

Hope you get it sorted.
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      01-31-2018, 05:15 AM   #20
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Uneven pad deposits tend to arise from heavy braking followed by the driver sitting with their foot on the brake pedal. Even on the road, a heavy stop from high speed to a halt and holding the foot on the brake can cause pad transfer.

Oulton Park is not hard on brakes, especially in the wet where stopping distance is governed by tyre grip not brake power. Mashing the pedal in every brake zone and having the ABS sort it out is not the way either. Nor is driving around with the DSC light on permanently, the DSC uses the brakes for stability.

Stock discs and pads should be fine if driven properly with measures to avoid pad transfer. Cool down lap without using the brakes and stopping the car on the park brake when back to the pits. If they start fading a proper pad (Not EBC) such as Carbone Lorraine CL5+, Ferrodo DS2500, Pagid 4-4, should be fine for most use.
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      02-01-2018, 04:01 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RajB View Post
From personal experience the EBC pads aren’t great with anything other than their own discs. They seem to cause more issues than most from what I’ve seen and experienced. But of course that’s just personal opinion.

You can warp discs and it does happen so isn’t just something garages tell you to make money.
It does sound like pad deposition and glaze but could well be warping from extreme sudden heat at the track day.

Very difficult to tell without seeing them / experiencing them in person but there’s a few things to check now.

Hope you get it sorted.
Thanks for the reply. What sort of issues did you have when you had them? What sort of set up do you have now? I was choosing between yellowstuff and the DS2500 and only went with yellows due to a good Ebay price but maybe that wasn't the best choice. Costs got too much after the first trackday to upgrade to EBC discs as well.

Cheers
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      02-01-2018, 04:06 PM   #22
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Uneven pad deposits tend to arise from heavy braking followed by the driver sitting with their foot on the brake pedal. Even on the road, a heavy stop from high speed to a halt and holding the foot on the brake can cause pad transfer.

Oulton Park is not hard on brakes, especially in the wet where stopping distance is governed by tyre grip not brake power. Mashing the pedal in every brake zone and having the ABS sort it out is not the way either. Nor is driving around with the DSC light on permanently, the DSC uses the brakes for stability.

Stock discs and pads should be fine if driven properly with measures to avoid pad transfer. Cool down lap without using the brakes and stopping the car on the park brake when back to the pits. If they start fading a proper pad (Not EBC) such as Carbone Lorraine CL5+, Ferrodo DS2500, Pagid 4-4, should be fine for most use.
Its strange as I made extra sure to do cool down laps this time around as I did ruin the stock pads and discs (and fluid!) the first time I went. I made sure I left the car in P and no handbrake on. Like you say, Oulton and especially in the wet shouldn't be hard on brakes and I didnt think I was anyway. But the feeling of the vibrations and thinking the car wasn't slowing down very well may well be due to tyres as well.
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