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      05-27-2011, 02:32 PM   #1
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Critique my audio upgrade

I am about to make the jump to a full audio upgrade and would like some feedback on my setup.

2009 e92 with Logic7

Sub:
10 Kappa Perfect sub (New - sitting in my closet from a few years ago)
JBL MS-A5001 Mono Amplifiers
Wicked CAS corner enclosure

Midbass:
Kicker 04SSMB8 8in underseat subs (is there a better option for midbass since I have a sub?)

Processor:
JBL MS-8 to power the OEM speakers and midbass

Really, I want to know if the Kickers are the best option for midbass, and if the MS-8 will be strong enough to power them.
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      05-27-2011, 02:47 PM   #2
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Upgrading the OEM speakers should be on your list too. Also doing an amp for them and the mid bass will greatly impact audio quality. Either a 6 channel amp or a 4 channel and a 2 channel amp will work. Since you have the L7 system the speakers aren't terrible so doing the amps first might be a better idea.
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      05-27-2011, 03:53 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaero View Post
I am about to make the jump to a full audio upgrade and would like some feedback on my setup.

2009 e92 with Logic7

Sub:
10 Kappa Perfect sub (New - sitting in my closet from a few years ago)
JBL MS-A5001 Mono Amplifiers
Wicked CAS corner enclosure

Midbass:
Kicker 04SSMB8 8in underseat subs (is there a better option for midbass since I have a sub?)

Processor:
JBL MS-8 to power the OEM speakers and midbass

Really, I want to know if the Kickers are the best option for midbass, and if the MS-8 will be strong enough to power them.
Good basic plan. What I would do different:

- Get a 4-channel amp instead of the mono amp. Use 2 channels for the underseats and bridge the remaining 2 into the sub. HD600/4 would be great, PDXF6 or XR-4S would also work, as long as you can get 300W out of the bridged channel which is about all that sub needs IMO.

- try it with the OEM woofers first, they sound great with about 100W and high-passed at 60Hz.

- get an additional tweeter and add it to the center channel

- get the Technic harness!
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      05-28-2011, 12:25 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaero View Post
I am about to make the jump to a full audio upgrade and would like some feedback on my setup.

2009 e92 with Logic7

Sub:
10 Kappa Perfect sub (New - sitting in my closet from a few years ago)
JBL MS-A5001 Mono Amplifiers
Wicked CAS corner enclosure

Midbass:
Kicker 04SSMB8 8in underseat subs (is there a better option for midbass since I have a sub?)

Processor:
JBL MS-8 to power the OEM speakers and midbass

Really, I want to know if the Kickers are the best option for midbass, and if the MS-8 will be strong enough to power them.
There is no way in hell that the MS-8 can power midbasses.

I doubt the input of the JBL amp can take the voltage out on the sub channel of the L7 amp.

I'm not a Perfect fan.
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      05-29-2011, 02:44 PM   #5
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I'm in the same boat as the OP. Is there any way simply amping the stock under-seat woofers will obviate the need for a discrete subwoofer in the trunk? Or is going the sub route really the best bet.
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      05-29-2011, 02:51 PM   #6
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The door mids won't give you meaningful output below about 200. The woofers under the seat CAN give you good output down to about 50. Sub-bass starts at 50 (and most FM stations don't broadcast signals below 50).

So bass is from 300-20. The 8" size can do a really good job without a trunk sub. But if you want to play really loud, or play a lot of Rap/hip-hop or techno/electronica loud, you may need a trunk sub.

If you run your bass way high, all the time, you need some kind of upgrade.

I haven't had my trunk sub in my car for months. But I'm 45...
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      05-29-2011, 02:52 PM   #7
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I forgot to say, a trunk sub won't go above 90 or so, so underseats are always needed regardless
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      05-29-2011, 02:59 PM   #8
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Thanks. And good idea mentioning the source... Most of my music is from Sirius, which I know is not a very good source. Anyone know how low they broadcast?

I mostly listen to electronic but not at very loud levels - what I'd like to call "reasonable" levels
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      05-29-2011, 03:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bomax View Post
Thanks. And good idea mentioning the source... Most of my music is from Sirius, which I know is not a very good source. Anyone know how low they broadcast?

I mostly listen to electronic but not at very loud levels - what I'd like to call "reasonable" levels
I've heard Sirius/XM broadcasts as low as 96 kbps. I personally consider 128 to be too low and 256 to be acceptable.
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      05-29-2011, 04:29 PM   #10
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OP: sorry for hijacking your thread....

Okay so I'm thinking getting the Wicked CAS enclosure, a JLw3v3, and maybe a Kenwood XR-4S amp with 2 channels for the under-seat woofers and 2 bridged into the JL sub. Good yes/no? I picked that amp essentially at random and because it looked physically small/easy to mount. I'm aiming to put the amp/wiring in the trunk floor compartment for a stealth insall.

Is that amp too small? 300 RMS to the sub and 120 RMS to each under-seat woofer.

Also, do I need to run new wiring to the under-seat woofers? I'm hoping not...
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      06-01-2011, 08:06 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
There is no way in hell that the MS-8 can power midbasses.

I doubt the input of the JBL amp can take the voltage out on the sub channel of the L7 amp.

I'm not a Perfect fan.
This is good info. I will do an amp on the midbass, but I am stuck with the perfect sub for now. I already have it so I dont care to spend money on another sub.

What do you mean the JBL amp cant take the voltage out of the L7? Which amps can and what makes the difference?
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      06-01-2011, 10:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaero View Post
This is good info. I will do an amp on the midbass, but I am stuck with the perfect sub for now. I already have it so I dont care to spend money on another sub.

What do you mean the JBL amp cant take the voltage out of the L7? Which amps can and what makes the difference?
The Infinity is a good sub!

Don't worry about amp inputs, since they will be fed by MS-8 signal!
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      06-01-2011, 10:28 AM   #13
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Hey, I just said "not a fan".

I did not see the MS8 down there. I'm not clear on the need for the MS amps if you use an MS8. They are still unproven. I would use another amp myself (hey, they aren't shipping to me anyway so I don't have a choice).
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      06-07-2011, 03:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Hey, I just said "not a fan".

I did not see the MS8 down there. I'm not clear on the need for the MS amps if you use an MS8. They are still unproven. I would use another amp myself (hey, they aren't shipping to me anyway so I don't have a choice).
Eh.. I like matching products. MS amp for the sub and MS-8 for everything else, but it looks like I need a sub for the below seat speakers so that plan is probably out.
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      06-07-2011, 04:56 PM   #15
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I recommend a 600/6

Run two channels to the fronts

And 4 channels bridged into 2 for the underseats.

I am very happy with my SSMB8
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      06-08-2011, 02:52 AM   #16
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Did you have a look into getting 5.25 components where the OEM 4 inch are? I'm not sure if u can get them to fit though?
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      06-08-2011, 01:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
I recommend a 600/6

Run two channels to the fronts

And 4 channels bridged into 2 for the underseats.

I am very happy with my SSMB8
Would I still need the MS-8 for this setup ?
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      06-08-2011, 02:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaero View Post
Would I still need the MS-8 for this setup ?
Yes, if you want to power the center and rear speakers. and yes if you want it to sound superb. I would HIGHLY recommend to try the OEM woofers first, as they make GREAT midbass drivers in combination with a sub. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Let the MS-8 power all 4" and 1" speakers, add a tweeter to the center, and get a 4 channel amp with 100W x 2 underseat and 300W x 1 for the sub. Audiophile system for less than $1000.

Edit: If you want to maximize the potential of the Infinity sub, get a corner-loaded enclosure. VP Electricity makes tham and another forum member as well. Trust me, it'll sound amazing and through the location it will optimize the output and minimize rattles, plus you keep your trunk space. I tried a single Infinity Perfect 12" sub in a Crutchfield enclosure, and no matter where I put it in the trunk, the output was very low. Now with a 10" sub in the trunk corner, the output is easily double that of the single 12" and probably close to a couple of 10s.
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Last edited by kaigoss69; 06-08-2011 at 02:57 PM.
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      06-08-2011, 02:51 PM   #19
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The MS-8 fills a lot of blocks in the block diagram:

- amplified speaker-level converter

- channel summing (your L7 system has high-pass crossover filtered and low-pass filtered outputs, no ful-range output - the MS-8 sums it all back together to full-range)

- signal processing reversal - "normalization" - de-equalization

- auto equalization and time correction (using the headset)

- crossover filtering

- 8 definable preamp channels (front, rear, center, sub, etc.)

- 8 RCA outputs and 8 deck-power speaker-level outputs, mirroring each other

So in Logic 7 cars, you need most of those bullets. They can be provided by other products, or a combo of other products, but the big plus from the MS-8 is that the internal power is enough - given the efficient 2-ohm factory speakers in the Logic 7 system - to let you power some of them using the MS-8 internal power.

The channels that ALWAYS need external amplification are the underseat woofer channels. The next channels that benefit from it are the front door channels.

What taibanl is referring to is using the 600/6 on the Front High (door 4" components) and Front Low (8" woofer) RCA outputs of the MS-8, and then using the speaker level outputs of the MS-8 for Center and Rear Effects/"Side". That is a common setup with our customers. 150x2 for the woofers and 75x2 for the 4" and tweeter set.

And if you even think about cramming a 5.25 in a car where a good 4" sounds great, Santa will give you coal in your stocking for Christmas.
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      06-08-2011, 02:52 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Yes, if you want to power the center and rear speakers. and yes if you want it to sound superb. I would HIGHLY recommend to try the OEM woofers first, as they make GREAT midbass drivers in combination with a sub. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Let the MS-8 power all 4" and 1" speakers, add a tweeter to the center, and get a 4 channel amp with 100W x 2 underseat and 300W x 1 for the sub. Audiophile system for less than $1000.
Kai, I know you say that all the time, but that's not what you run anymore. You upgraded from that, true?
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      06-08-2011, 03:30 PM   #21
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Kai, I know you say that all the time, but that's not what you run anymore. You upgraded from that, true?
I installed the Morels hoping to get enough bass from under the seat so that I would not need a trunk sub. They got me about 90% of the way there. But with a trunk sub, and a crossover in the 80Hz region, the Morels have a much easier job, and I could probably put the OEMs back in there and not notice a difference whatsoever. So IMO using aftermarket underseats IN COMBINATION with a trunk sub, is a waste of money if you have the Logic 7 OEM system.

Oh, and the advice I give here is almost solely based on my experience. I have gone through almost every imaginable upgrade option on the L7 system, and I have done it all in baby steps, so I know what works and what does not.
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      06-08-2011, 03:41 PM   #22
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So you've run the stock woofers with your sub, then? I've lost track of all the changes you've made.

I guess my point is this. I tell people they can amplify the stock woofers for midbass. I also tell people that there are some aftermarket woofers that sounds better than stock, and that if you blow the stock woofer, you can't just buy the woofer driver from the dealer - they want to sell you a complete assembly with the enclosure, for a lot of money (as I'm sure you know).

A lot of our customers want to go back to stock later (which you can't do easily with a blown stock woofer). So we use aftermarket woofers because we want a higher Pe and a warranty.

I'm not trying to rip people off selling them aftermarket midbass or woofer drivers, by any means. The popularity of the Kickers seems to show that people want an upgrade for the midbass. Someday those will be gone (I wish I could have bought some of them on that closeout deal), and I wish I had lower-cost units to sell. I'd be happy to just amplify the underseats if I wasn't worried about them failing.

I've tried a lot of permutations in my own vehicle, too. Some I didn't write up or wouldn't fit.

But there is that fine line that delineates "this is what I've run" and "this is what I used to run and I didn't like it" and "I've tried it and hated it (like MS-8 powering the woofers : )" and "this makes sense to me on paper". That last one we all go to at times, but I know that I try to differentiate which of them I'm talking about...

Anyway, that's the only point I was making.

I was initially very skeptical of the Jehnerts, and I still don't recommend them for folks who are going to raise the bass all the way up, play rap, and not get a trunk sub. But I love the way they sound, and even with the exchange rate, they've been a popular choice with our customers.
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