[ChawenHalo]

Originally Posted by bfleming

I'll put my hat in the ring here... I had a 156 JTD with 200bhp, and used Red Dot Racing grooved discs & OEM pads. A fantastic set up. I'm not sure of Red Dot are still trading, and I'm not sure who made their discs, but that was probably the best set-up I've had.
I used to do track days in my E46 330i, great fun as it was a debadged touring in fine fettle, so used to upset a lot of people - despite being a big heavy lump of a car! When it came to brakes, my set up was EBC discs, yellowstuff pads, goodridge hoses, ATE superblue fluid. The disc judder when hot was horrendous, to the point where they had to go after one track day. I have never touched EBC stuff since, nor will I ever again. I replaced those discs with Brembo's, and they were great.
I'm going to have to do the brakes on my current E90 in the next few months, and whilst I've used Pagid gear for my road cars for the last few years, I'm not sure if they're up to track use.
Recommendations for a road car with some occasional track use?

Pagid have only recently started to recently make a road pad - I mean a track/ road pad thats acceptable for road use called (Pagid S)They're various track options are pretty much the best quality/ price ratios. And yes I am a bit of a brand whore on that one. But also have so serious experience with their endurance pads (which are the same they use in endurance racing). Also use to see some serious track nuts ditching their GT3's ceramic disks for steel ones and all 4 guys were running various Pagid.

[ChawenHalo]

Originally Posted by AD18

Thanks, this is very useful actually. Seems to be that yellowstuff isn't all that good! It seems to tie in with my experience that after 3 laps the judder was so bad it was obvious that something wasn't right. I have the potential to go again this weekend so may give it one last shot and if its still bad then time to ditch them and switch to something else. I'm amazed that the standard pads had no issues now apart from not withstanding the heat.
I think a dedicated track car still may be the way forward though.

Well basically the harder the pad the more they'l resist track use but the compromise is that they'll chew through your disks (I'm exaggerating of course) and are very noisy and operate less well in road use. OEM pads are good but will overheat and turn into chocolate (this is how I fried my first pair on my 2nd track day despite being fully ventillated M3 CSL spec - though thats more to do with me beinga shit driver than the car's fault ) The most important thing though is that once your disks are cooked you'll need to change them, and if you change your disks you must also change your pads. That bit is important.

[ChawenHalo]

Originally Posted by stevesingo

On my E30 M3, which see a little track use, but mainly used on the road, I'm using CL Brakes (Carbon Lorraine) RC5+ pads.

http://www.clbraking.co.uk/compounds

Pros:

Quiet-no squealing
Clean- Compared to Ferodos I used before, the CL RC5+ produce less than half the dust.
Good bite from cold
No fade on track
Firm pedal.

Cons
Expensive (ish) For an E90 £120+VAT Fr and £123+VAT Rear
Noisy- they tend to rattle in my caliper (AP Racing) a little, but I don't have anti rattle springs, so this shouldn't be a problem on a road car.

Had the same prob on he RS29s I was running. Its really embarrassing on cobbled streets its like 4 frying pans clanging around the car

[stevesingo]

Originally Posted by AD18

On the subject of pad deposits, how exactly does a cool down lap stop pad deposits on the discs? Surely during your hot laps, this is when pad material will be deposited. You do a cool down lap, enter the pits and don't apply the handbrake, this to me is most critical step for avoiding pad deposits.
Unless I'm misunderstanding I'm not seeing what this cool down lap really does.

There is pad material deposited over the full friction area of the disc at almost all times.

At lower temperatures braking force is achieved by pad to iron disc friction as we would all understand friction.

As the brake temperature rises above a threshold which is determined by the compound, pad material adheres to the disc. Now when we brake the friction is not pad to iron disc, but hot sticky pad material of the pad to hot sticky pad material which is adhered to the disc.

The issue arises when we get uneven pad material deposit. This occurs when the disc and pad are still above the transfer threshold and the pad is static against the disc, i.e hot brakes, no cool down park up. where the pad is static against the disc we get a heavier deposit.

Now when we drive the car, it is un-noticeable at low speeds (low brake temps) but, as brake temps rise the heavy deposit on the disc heats up and starts grabbing every time that part of the disc passes through the pads.

As the deposit exerts more friction that the rest of the disc, it generates more heat and gets heavier.

A light skim is the only way to remove it.

Some pads are more prone to deposits than other, EBC seemingly being one of them.

[sirleeofroy]

Originally Posted by stevesingo

There is pad material deposited over the full friction area of the disc at almost all times.

At lower temperatures braking force is achieved by pad to iron disc friction as we would all understand friction.

As the brake temperature rises above a threshold which is determined by the compound, pad material adheres to the disc. Now when we brake the friction is not pad to iron disc, but hot sticky pad material of the pad to hot sticky pad material which is adhered to the disc.

The issue arises when we get uneven pad material deposit. This occurs when the disc and pad are still above the transfer threshold and the pad is static against the disc, i.e hot brakes, no cool down park up. where the pad is static against the disc we get a heavier deposit.

Now when we drive the car, it is un-noticeable at low speeds (low brake temps) but, as brake temps rise the heavy deposit on the disc heats up and starts grabbing every time that part of the disc passes through the pads.

As the deposit exerts more friction that the rest of the disc, it generates more heat and gets heavier.

A light skim is the only way to remove it.

Some pads are more prone to deposits than other, EBC seemingly being one of them.

I too had wondered about pad deposits, nice explanation!

[AD18]

Originally Posted by stevesingo

There is pad material deposited over the full friction area of the disc at almost all times.

At lower temperatures braking force is achieved by pad to iron disc friction as we would all understand friction.

As the brake temperature rises above a threshold which is determined by the compound, pad material adheres to the disc. Now when we brake the friction is not pad to iron disc, but hot sticky pad material of the pad to hot sticky pad material which is adhered to the disc.

The issue arises when we get uneven pad material deposit. This occurs when the disc and pad are still above the transfer threshold and the pad is static against the disc, i.e hot brakes, no cool down park up. where the pad is static against the disc we get a heavier deposit.

Now when we drive the car, it is un-noticeable at low speeds (low brake temps) but, as brake temps rise the heavy deposit on the disc heats up and starts grabbing every time that part of the disc passes through the pads.

As the deposit exerts more friction that the rest of the disc, it generates more heat and gets heavier.

A light skim is the only way to remove it.

Some pads are more prone to deposits than other, EBC seemingly being one of them.

Ahh this is a great explanation and makes it much more clear what happened now.

Is there anything you can do disc wise to reduce pad deposit or is it only the characteristic of the pad to deposit on the disc face? Would an upgraded disc (dimpled or slotted) help reduce this or is changing the pad the better route to go down. It's just OEM style discs I have currently.

[stevesingo]

I can't see how a change of surface patterns on the disc would change how pad transfer occurs. If the pad at 500+degC is pressed against an iron disc at the same temperature, in the same place, there will be transfer.

Don't think this is exclusive to track use. In fact, it is more difficult to manage on the road. On track, you can take your time and do two cool down laps if you want. On the road, traffic and road layout dictate when you have to stop. When having a spirited drive on the road, always be thinking ahead as to where you will need to come to a halt. Approaching traffic lights or a junction, brake early and slowly creep up to the stationary traffic and try not to allow the car to stop.

[AD18]

Originally Posted by stevesingo

I can't see how a change of surface patterns on the disc would change how pad transfer occurs. If the pad at 500+degC is pressed against an iron disc at the same temperature, in the same place, there will be transfer.

Don't think this is exclusive to track use. In fact, it is more difficult to manage on the road. On track, you can take your time and do two cool down laps if you want. On the road, traffic and road layout dictate when you have to stop. When having a spirited drive on the road, always be thinking ahead as to where you will need to come to a halt. Approaching traffic lights or a junction, brake early and slowly creep up to the stationary traffic and try not to allow the car to stop.

I'll look for different pads as a first point of call then I think. Thanks for the info.

[stevesingo]

If the discs now have deposits, you will need to skim them at least to remove the deposits.

[AD18]

Originally Posted by stevesingo

If the discs now have deposits, you will need to skim them at least to remove the deposits.

Yes I believe they do have deposits. Last time I did a weeks worth of driving and the bite of the pads came back. That doesn't seem to be working this time round as I still have a spongy and 'slippery' feeling set of brakes. There must be a lot more deposits now.

[AD18]

Brake disc skimming:

Quote 1: £60 a corner
Quote 2: £237 for all



Seems a bit much to me?! New discs were £60/£50 front/rear. Yes, labour of installing the discs is what makes fitting new ones more expensive (£400 total from the last receipt) but wasn't expecting £60 odd a corner for skimming...?
Hmmm

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by AD18

Brake disc skimming:

Quote 1: £60 a corner
Quote 2: £237 for all



Seems a bit much to me?! New discs were £60/£50 front/rear. Yes, labour of installing the discs is what makes fitting new ones more expensive (£400 total from the last receipt) but wasn't expecting £60 odd a corner for skimming...?
Hmmm

Install them yourself! It takes about 10 min per corner to swap a rotor.
Lift car
Remove wheel
Torque bit for the rotor hat screw
Remove the two rear caliper bolts, slide away caliper (and support them)
Remove rotor
Install rotor
Install rotor hat screw
Install caliper (2 bolts again)
Install wheel,
Lower car
torque wheel bolts to 110nm

Test brakes
Drive away

[ChawenHalo]

Originally Posted by david in germany

Install them yourself! It takes about 10 min per corner to swap a rotor.
Lift car
Remove wheel
Torque bit for the rotor hat screw
Remove the two rear caliper bolts, slide away caliper (and support them)
Remove rotor
Install rotor
Install rotor hat screw
Install caliper (2 bolts again)
Install wheel,
Lower car
torque wheel bolts to 110nm

Test brakes
Drive away

might as well change the pads too as they won't be strait and will damage your new disk.

[AD18]

Originally Posted by ChawenHalo

might as well change the pads too as they won't be strait and will damage your new disk.

Yes I plan to. I was recommended Pagid RSL19's but once I saw they would be about £600 for all corners I've decided otherwise, as good as I'm sure they are haha
I'm reading they may not have been great for road use with all the squeal anyway so looking at all other options.

[david in germany]

I would really reccomended oem pads if you can. Nice hard stops (multiple) yesterday on the autobahn (from over 150mph) and not a bit of pad build up at all, no shakes, and no pulsating. People always look for ways to save money but end up changing the parts out twice as often.

[AD18]

Originally Posted by david in germany

I would really reccomended oem pads if you can. Nice hard stops (multiple) yesterday on the autobahn (from over 150mph) and not a bit of pad build up at all, no shakes, and no pulsating. People always look for ways to save money but end up changing the parts out twice as often.

This is a difficult decision based on what you say. Its great that standard pads can take the abuse you mention and they must get some serious heat in them for those sorts of stops.
I'm just hesistant to have them on a trackday. If they really do work that well then fine I'll revert back and get what was originally on the car. My experience in trying different pads is very limited but the many threads I've read have all talked about buying the likes of EBC, Ferodo, Pagid, PFC, Stoptech etc. so this leaves me rather confused!
Granted, one thing I can say based on this thread is that yellowstuff really didn't work for me and in reality the standard pads on the first track day held up way better. That is where my experience ends with pads.

[Andy198712]

Originally Posted by david in germany

I would really reccomended oem pads if you can. Nice hard stops (multiple) yesterday on the autobahn (from over 150mph) and not a bit of pad build up at all, no shakes, and no pulsating. People always look for ways to save money but end up changing the parts out twice as often.

but i can't imagine they'd work well on the track....
Autobahn is what they are more then like designed around?!
there a good quality pad though and i'll probably buy them when it comes to renewal for mine

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by Andy198712

but i can't imagine they'd work well on the track....
Autobahn is what they are more then like designed around?!
there a good quality pad though and i'll probably buy them when it comes to renewal for mine

When was the last time you had to slow from over 150mph+ on the track? I would easily compare my old commute to a track day. 50 miles one way and 98% autobahn.

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by AD18

This is a difficult decision based on what you say. Its great that standard pads can take the abuse you mention and they must get some serious heat in them for those sorts of stops.
I'm just hesistant to have them on a trackday. If they really do work that well then fine I'll revert back and get what was originally on the car. My experience in trying different pads is very limited but the many threads I've read have all talked about buying the likes of EBC, Ferodo, Pagid, PFC, Stoptech etc. so this leaves me rather confused!
Granted, one thing I can say based on this thread is that yellowstuff really didn't work for me and in reality the standard pads on the first track day held up way better. That is where my experience ends with pads.

I will try to remember my laser thermometer the next time I get a chance to run a bit harder. After a good hard stop I will try to pull over somwhere and get a tempature reading.
I too listened to the hoopla of the aftermarket pads and rotors, this is why I have a set of Padgett rotors and ceramics pads sitting in my garage with about 3k miles on them... Pulsating pedal syndrome. The rotors will make a good set for my wife's 328i when her rotors need to be swapped. I will use OEM pads with them though.

[Chappers 71]

Changing pads is pretty easy, first time I did mine I watched a YouTube video a few times, bought the right tools first & it took me about hour & half a corner to do pads & discs. Pad change takes me about 40 mins to do the fronts. It does make it easier having my garage to work in. If you learn to change your own pads you could take a different compound pad that you'd already bedded in to your track day & swap them over at the track to get some back to back runs.
When I took my e36 track daying I was using oem pads with drilled discs & they worked very well. Only thing I didn't like about drilled discs was the holes kinda fill up with pad dust.
I also track dated my e34 M5 a couple of times & that was on oem pads & discs with no issues.
Maybe go a bit easier in the braking zones

[AD18]

Originally Posted by david in germany

I will try to remember my laser thermometer the next time I get a chance to run a bit harder. After a good hard stop I will try to pull over somwhere and get a tempature reading.
I too listened to the hoopla of the aftermarket pads and rotors, this is why I have a set of Padgett rotors and ceramics pads sitting in my garage with about 3k miles on them... Pulsating pedal syndrome. The rotors will make a good set for my wife's 328i when her rotors need to be swapped. I will use OEM pads with them though.

Originally Posted by Chappers 71

Changing pads is pretty easy, first time I did mine I watched a YouTube video a few times, bought the right tools first & it took me about hour & half a corner to do pads & discs. Pad change takes me about 40 mins to do the fronts. It does make it easier having my garage to work in. If you learn to change your own pads you could take a different compound pad that you'd already bedded in to your track day & swap them over at the track to get some back to back runs.
When I took my e36 track daying I was using oem pads with drilled discs & they worked very well. Only thing I didn't like about drilled discs was the holes kinda fill up with pad dust.
I also track dated my e34 M5 a couple of times & that was on oem pads & discs with no issues.
Maybe go a bit easier in the braking zones

Hi David,

Sure, it'll be interesting to know, as long as you can find a safe place.

I have to say its a bit of a revelation hearing that standard pads can stand up to the abuse, similar to hearing your findings, Chappers. All the other threads talking about pad glaze, fade, etc. had me with the belief of ditching the pads as they'd stand no chance! There must be an application where they'd work better though or I'd think they wouldn't exist...
Maybe standard blank discs, OEM pads and some high boiling point fluid (as I'm sure this is a definite weak point) will be alright. Have you upgraded brake fluid in your car David for those sorts of high speed stops?

Cheers

[mjn77]

Standard OEM Discs and pads stopped me on the Autobahn from triple digits and have survived 200 miles / day round the mountain passes. That is a lot of 40/50mph > 15-20mph braking sessions.