New 335I and in the shop for a week already, advice needed

xtremecruiser · 09-11-2008, 05:52 PM

Ugh, I hate to post this, butt I need some advice and help.

Last week I test drove a 07 335I and LOVED it, did not like the color or price, butt the salesman had a 08 he wanted to show me.
The car was "out on loan" and was what they called their prime loaner, used by special customers and the sales guys.
Went back later and fell in love, took her for a spin, negotiated the price, signed all the papers and I was off.
In the disclosure papers they listed a few things like a few dings, rim scuff, etc, nothing major and I would bring it back for service the following week.
Well we had a hurricane scare in SC so it was the following Monday before they got the car and while I had it the list I gave there grew.

The part that scared me was that the steering wheel was getting more tilted to the left, hard to paddle shit with a tilted wheel

See list below

Today the service manager calls me and says that both right rims were bent and warped, so they ordered 2 new rims and tires... They were only going to replace the right sides tires

I asked her if there was any suspension issues, etc, she says they will align the car again and that it will be ready next week, tomorrow is a week that they have had it.
Stewed on it all day and also pissed off because I told her I am not happy with the 4 door 328 and wanted a coupe or a 5 series, she said they would call me back but never did

So WTF could have warped both rims on one side, curb crash, could not just be a pot hole like she suggested.
I want these things checked.
Front end, suspension, frame... what else ?
Can I make them check these things ?
Hell I almost want a new car now or my money back

Where is the due diligence on this vehicle by them ?

List given to the dealer

• Dents and dings
o Rear bumper
o Right panel by middle of right rear windows
o Chips on hood, front fender, drivers mirror
o Trunk has chips from where the top opens and closes

• Inside front lights do not come on

• Steering wheel is tilted to the left, it is not centered when
driving, alignment is off

• Breaks are soft, when you press down on the pedal it will compress
all the way to the floor.

• Under hard breaking the wheel pulls very hard to both sides at different times

• Sirus radio not activated

• Voice command system not working

• Hard to start
o Startup is taking longer and longer, about 4-5 seconds or so before
then engine starts. This happens at random times, definitely when the
engine is cold, but also after about an hour of drive time.

• Windows leak water in when sprayed with water hose ( big leak )

• Wind buffeting / pressure noise at over 30 mph and at 55 ( SI B54 04 08 )

• Passenger rear rim has curb scuff marks

• Tire wear is different on front tires, irregular tire wear due to alignment

• Tire seem out of balance on right side of car, loud noise, thumping

simp0man · 09-11-2008, 05:57 PM

Good luck. Should have bought it new.

xtremecruiser · 09-11-2008, 06:00 PM

According to them it was a new car, would be the same as a new one with the few K miles added to the original warranty.
BTW thanks for the help

Seminole · 09-11-2008, 06:27 PM

Let me show this to my law professor (He is Charlie Christs personal attorney, Charlie is the Governor of FL. He also is the lead attorney for FSU, FAMU, Florida Dept. of Revenue, Florida Dept. of Corrections, Florida Dept. of Financial Services, Florida Dept. of Environmental Protection... the list goes on, but you get the point) If there is anyone who would know if you had a legal recourse against them, it would be him.

I'm learning about the U.C.C. in class right now. We just learned about full disclosure. Some case where a woman bought a house for herself and her kids. Well a few years before a family with 4 kids was murdered in that house. The Realtor and the seller didn't disclose it. But under contract law you must disclose anything that could cause detriment to the other party. Obviously the kids would be freaked out living in a house that other kids were murdered in. It turns out that she bought the house for $75,000 but because of the murder it was only worth $65,000. She ended up getting the $10,000 back.

You said "In the disclosure papers they listed a few things like a few dings, rim scuff, etc". If there was nothing in there about bent rims, water leaks, etc. then you MAY have a case against them for failure to disclose all the problems. They can't use the "we didn't know" excuse either, because as a BMW dealership they are considered experts. But take what I say with a grain of salt till I let my professor look at this.

labrit · 09-11-2008, 06:28 PM

I don't see why you're complaining about these issues considering you knew it was a car that was loaned out to various reps and customers and they sold it as a used car, which i'm sure you must have test driven prior to your purchase.

Just because they tell you it's like new doesn't mean it really is...are you that naive? I wouldn't buy a demo. Ever.

I wish you the best of luck, be calm and collected because at the end of the day you are your own man and made this big boy decision by yourself. You can't blame them for every niggling issue with the vehicle and if i were you i'd be as nice as pie as certain items they really don't have to bother with - i'm surprised they replaced the rims for you.

Morpheus · 09-11-2008, 06:33 PM

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169370

xtremecruiser · 09-11-2008, 06:59 PM

Interesting replies here, they will make everything right, they have to, or I wont drive it off the lot.
I am a big boy, duh

Can anyone suggest what else I need them to check before this happens

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169370

xtremecruiser · 09-11-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by labrit

I don't see why you're complaining about these issues considering you knew it was a car that was loaned out to various reps and customers and they sold it as a used car, which i'm sure you must have test driven prior to your purchase.

Just because they tell you it's like new doesn't mean it really is...are you that naive? I wouldn't buy a demo. Ever.

I wish you the best of luck, be calm and collected because at the end of the day you are your own man and made this big boy decision by yourself. You can't blame them for every niggling issue with the vehicle and if i were you i'd be as nice as pie as certain items they really don't have to bother with - i'm surprised they replaced the rims for you.

Yes I can blame them, they sold me a car that was damaged and that they should have checked over before they sold it, or hell even let anyone drive it.

fasterthanyours · 09-11-2008, 07:02 PM

He has the tire care plan, whatever it's called, they have to replace the tires or rims.

What really bites me is they didn't say they were replacing the left side tire that also has the irregular wear patterns.

Plus how safe is it to drive around on tires that are brand new on the right side and have 5,000 miles on them on the left side. That's f'ed up!

labrit · 09-11-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xtremecruiser

Yes I can blame them, they sold me a car that was damaged and that they should have checked over before they sold it, or hell even let anyone drive it.

I'd be curious to see the documentation for this sale because depending on some of the conditions pertaining to the listed items you may be SOL as it was also your duty as a buyer to make sure that the car was to your liking prior to leaving the lot and signing those papers.

The first thing i always do when buying new cars is do a thorough check inside and out and if i happen to see even the slightest scratch as i wont sign papers until it's corrected or agreed in writing that it will be fixed.

As i said, good luck and remember to be calm - your current attitude will get you nowhere.

hotrod2448 · 09-11-2008, 07:13 PM

I can't believe you test drove a car with all that wrong and still bought it. I hate to say it (especially since it's been said already) but, that is pretty much why you don't buy a demo regardless of what the dealer tells you.

Personally I think you are pretty much stuck with that car since they disclosed that it was essentially a "used" vehicle.

You'll just have to get them to fix everything which sounds like an alignment to fix the misaligned steering wheel and tire wear, bleed brakes, trip to dent wizard, new window moldings, fuel pump and probably a progman update for the lights.

Good luck.

jmangel1 · 09-11-2008, 07:27 PM

I am sorry to see your experience hasnt been that good. I would have told you not to buy a used BMW especially, the way the sales personell tell you on the test drive, floor it and see how it handles. People beat the crap out of demos. I test drove a new car on the back lot, but chose to buy a different one altogether. I think you have 72 hours to return it. At least in New Jersey. If you took delivery with all of the scratches, dents, messed up rims and stuff, and nothing is noted. They will probably say it wasnt there when you took the car.

Be courteous, and polite and speak to the Service Director and/or Service Manager. Nicely tell them that you would like everything to be fixed as best as possible. Cause you really don't want to have to call BMW Customer Relations, cause you wouldn'd want to effect there reputation, which you heard from others is great.

BE POSITIVE - They will work with you. Don't threaten, don't be nasty.

Good Luck

dwd08 · 09-11-2008, 07:29 PM

Can't really answer most of your questions except the one regarding pot hole damage. I messed up two rims on my E55 from a pot hole. Bent both the passenger front and rear really good. Dealer did a full check and the suspension was fine and all the car needed was an alignment. They replaced both rims and 4 tires. To answer your question a good size pot hole and the right speed can warp/bend a couple of tires without messing up the suspension.

On a side note I traded in the E55 for a demo 335i not too long ago. I haven't had any problems with mine. However the GM was the only driver of it and he seemed to take good care of it. Had some minor scratches they were able to buff out and a dent in the bumper which I'm replacing with the M-Tech kit soon. They are taking 250 off the M-Tech package instead of fixing the rear bumper.

Good luck with the repairs.

nicknaz · 09-11-2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xtremecruiser

According to them it was a new car

That should have set off a bunch of alarm bells right there. Not sure how a car that is a primary loaner used by customers and reps for demo is considered a new car

pony_trekker · 09-11-2008, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seminole

But under contract law you must disclose anything that could cause detriment to the other party.

Only in law school.

BzsBimmer · 09-11-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seminole

Let me show this to my law professor (He is Charlie Christs personal attorney, Charlie is the Governor of FL. He also is the lead attorney for FSU, FAMU, Florida Dept. of Revenue, Florida Dept. of Corrections, Florida Dept. of Financial Services, Florida Dept. of Environmental Protection... the list goes on, but you get the point) If there is anyone who would know if you had a legal recourse against them, it would be him.

I'm learning about the U.C.C. in class right now. We just learned about full disclosure. Some case where a woman bought a house for herself and her kids. Well a few years before a family with 4 kids was murdered in that house. The Realtor and the seller didn't disclose it. But under contract law you must disclose anything that could cause detriment to the other party. Obviously the kids would be freaked out living in a house that other kids were murdered in. It turns out that she bought the house for $75,000 but because of the murder it was only worth $65,000. She ended up getting the $10,000 back.

You said "In the disclosure papers they listed a few things like a few dings, rim scuff, etc". If there was nothing in there about bent rims, water leaks, etc. then you MAY have a case against them for failure to disclose all the problems. They can't use the "we didn't know" excuse either, because as a BMW dealership they are considered experts. But take what I say with a grain of salt till I let my professor look at this.

I beleive that there is a 3 year limit to that disclosure law regarding death in the house.
Sorry OT. but I just read it in my sellers contract for a house I'm selling

Seminole · 09-11-2008, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BzsBimmer

I beleive that there is a 3 year limit to that disclosure law regarding death in the house.

The law varies by state. California has a 3 year disclosure period. But the main thing to look at is if the knowledge of death is a material fact. A material fact is anything that could sway someone's buying decision. Here is where it gets dicey. Say it is outside the 3 year period and you don't disclose it. You are assuming it is not a material fact to the potential buyer. If the buyer later found out about the death, and wouldn't have bought the house based off that, they could bring a suit against you. Even though the law says you have to only disclose it for 3 years, it is considered withholding a material fact under contract law. You would most likely win the suit though, because the buyer did not ask. In the case that I talked about before, one of the main reason the woman won was because the seller and the sellers agent went to neighbors and told them not to tell the prospective buyer about the murder. Obviously they were trying to hide a material fact that would have been instrumental in the buyers decision.

Here is a quote from an article written by a Realtor: (http://homebuying.about.com/od/homed...q2Disclose.htm)

Quote:

Material Facts are commonly referred to as anything that would affect the buyer's decision to purchase or the price and terms the buyer offers. In other words, if you have knowledge about a defect, it should be disclosed. In California, sellers are to notify buyers if a death has occurred on the property within the last 3 years. Some buyers are creeped out by knowledge that a seller died in the house.

A seller once asked me if she should tell the buyer that her husband died in their bedroom five years ago. Although the law doesn't require it, because the death occurred outside of the three-year window and because the buyer did not ask about it, I suggested she disclose this to the buyers, and she did. Moreover, if she had chosen to withhold this information from the buyer, I would have had to disclose it because now I had knowledge of a material fact.

So even if you hide it, if your Realtor has knowledge, they have to disclose it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pony_trekker

Only in law school.

Ha! Tell me about it. But I'm not in law school. I'm getting my Masters in Accounting and we have to take a law class. Law school is coming up after I get my Masters.

OP, I'll talk to my professor tomorrow for you.

xtremecruiser · 09-11-2008, 10:23 PM

Some hater posts insinuating I am stupid and cheep.

I would have guessed I would have gotten suggestions on having the dealer check the front end, the suspension, alignment, steering, etc
All of which I will have them check and get checked by my BMW tuner I have used for years

kevinbahnz · 09-11-2008, 10:57 PM

shouldnt have bought a car that was their "prime loaner". Werent you the one that put 87 octane in one of their loaners? Did you buy that laoner that was returned with 3 wheels? if the car is under CPo warranty then you should be OK.

JSpira · 09-12-2008, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmangel1

I think you have 72 hours to return it. At least in New Jersey.

Not anywhere actually. Not even in NJ.

labrit · 09-12-2008, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xtremecruiser

Some hater posts insinuating I am stupid and cheep.

Does anyone else find that statement rather amusing?

genesis · 09-12-2008, 01:16 AM

Most of the issues you described are all related to the damaged wheels and alignment...Just let them do what needs to be done and re-evaluate it at that time...No sense in stressing out over it...The cars under warranty, they''ll take care of it...

The Sirius radio needs to be activated by you...Call Sirius with the radio ESN and they will send a signal and activate it...

The voice command system...I'm guessing you mean the bluetooth system...Did you pair it with your phone?

Hard to start could be the fuel pump...

The dents, dings and chips should have all been addressed at time of purchase in writing...If it wasn't, try being extremely nice and maybe they will help remedy them...

The water leak is easy enough to show them...

It sounds like you got a car that was driven hard....Hopefully you got it at a really good price to make all this worthwhile...I just bought an 08 demo last month with 4k miles on it...It is in brand new condition...You literally could not tell anyone had used it and they took over $10k off the sticker...

09-11-2008, 05:52 PM	#1
xtremecruiser First Lieutenant 34 Rep 317 Posts Drives: 08 Waterfall Vert Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SC iTrader: (0)	New 335I and in the shop for a week already, advice needed Ugh, I hate to post this, butt I need some advice and help. Last week I test drove a 07 335I and LOVED it, did not like the color or price, butt the salesman had a 08 he wanted to show me. The car was "out on loan" and was what they called their prime loaner, used by special customers and the sales guys. Went back later and fell in love, took her for a spin, negotiated the price, signed all the papers and I was off. In the disclosure papers they listed a few things like a few dings, rim scuff, etc, nothing major and I would bring it back for service the following week. Well we had a hurricane scare in SC so it was the following Monday before they got the car and while I had it the list I gave there grew. The part that scared me was that the steering wheel was getting more tilted to the left, hard to paddle shit with a tilted wheel See list below Today the service manager calls me and says that both right rims were bent and warped, so they ordered 2 new rims and tires... They were only going to replace the right sides tires I asked her if there was any suspension issues, etc, she says they will align the car again and that it will be ready next week, tomorrow is a week that they have had it. Stewed on it all day and also pissed off because I told her I am not happy with the 4 door 328 and wanted a coupe or a 5 series, she said they would call me back but never did So WTF could have warped both rims on one side, curb crash, could not just be a pot hole like she suggested. I want these things checked. Front end, suspension, frame... what else ? Can I make them check these things ? Hell I almost want a new car now or my money back Where is the due diligence on this vehicle by them ? List given to the dealer • Dents and dings o Rear bumper o Right panel by middle of right rear windows o Chips on hood, front fender, drivers mirror o Trunk has chips from where the top opens and closes • Inside front lights do not come on • Steering wheel is tilted to the left, it is not centered when driving, alignment is off • Breaks are soft, when you press down on the pedal it will compress all the way to the floor. • Under hard breaking the wheel pulls very hard to both sides at different times • Sirus radio not activated • Voice command system not working • Hard to start o Startup is taking longer and longer, about 4-5 seconds or so before then engine starts. This happens at random times, definitely when the engine is cold, but also after about an hour of drive time. • Windows leak water in when sprayed with water hose ( big leak ) • Wind buffeting / pressure noise at over 30 mph and at 55 ( SI B54 04 08 ) • Passenger rear rim has curb scuff marks • Tire wear is different on front tires, irregular tire wear due to alignment • Tire seem out of balance on right side of car, loud noise, thumping Last edited by xtremecruiser; 09-11-2008 at 05:59 PM.. Reason: Thread Subscription added
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09-11-2008, 05:57 PM	#2
simp0man Not looking 2 SPEED, just looking GOOD 45 Rep 2,516 Posts Drives: 07 328i Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Stockton, Ca iTrader: (1) Garage List 2007 328i [0.00]	Good luck. Should have bought it new. __________________
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09-11-2008, 06:00 PM	#3
xtremecruiser First Lieutenant 34 Rep 317 Posts Drives: 08 Waterfall Vert Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SC iTrader: (0)	According to them it was a new car, would be the same as a new one with the few K miles added to the original warranty. BTW thanks for the help
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09-11-2008, 06:27 PM	#4
Seminole Colonel 448 Rep 2,032 Posts Drives: Red Flyer Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: 38.8977° N, 77.0366° W iTrader: (2) Garage List 2008 E90 328i [7.00]	Let me show this to my law professor (He is Charlie Christs personal attorney, Charlie is the Governor of FL. He also is the lead attorney for FSU, FAMU, Florida Dept. of Revenue, Florida Dept. of Corrections, Florida Dept. of Financial Services, Florida Dept. of Environmental Protection... the list goes on, but you get the point) If there is anyone who would know if you had a legal recourse against them, it would be him. I'm learning about the U.C.C. in class right now. We just learned about full disclosure. Some case where a woman bought a house for herself and her kids. Well a few years before a family with 4 kids was murdered in that house. The Realtor and the seller didn't disclose it. But under contract law you must disclose anything that could cause detriment to the other party. Obviously the kids would be freaked out living in a house that other kids were murdered in. It turns out that she bought the house for $75,000 but because of the murder it was only worth $65,000. She ended up getting the $10,000 back. You said "In the disclosure papers they listed a few things like a few dings, rim scuff, etc". If there was nothing in there about bent rims, water leaks, etc. then you MAY have a case against them for failure to disclose all the problems. They can't use the "we didn't know" excuse either, because as a BMW dealership they are considered experts. But take what I say with a grain of salt till I let my professor look at this. __________________
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09-11-2008, 06:28 PM	#5
labrit Private 2 Rep 62 Posts Drives: 997 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: LA iTrader: (0)	I don't see why you're complaining about these issues considering you knew it was a car that was loaned out to various reps and customers and they sold it as a used car, which i'm sure you must have test driven prior to your purchase. Just because they tell you it's like new doesn't mean it really is...are you that naive? I wouldn't buy a demo. Ever. I wish you the best of luck, be calm and collected because at the end of the day you are your own man and made this big boy decision by yourself. You can't blame them for every niggling issue with the vehicle and if i were you i'd be as nice as pie as certain items they really don't have to bother with - i'm surprised they replaced the rims for you.
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09-11-2008, 06:33 PM	#6
Morpheus Captain 25 Rep 941 Posts Drives: 335i Titanium Silver Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Cockaigne iTrader: (1)	wasn't this car was it? http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169370
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09-11-2008, 06:59 PM	#7
xtremecruiser First Lieutenant 34 Rep 317 Posts Drives: 08 Waterfall Vert Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SC iTrader: (0)	Interesting replies here, they will make everything right, they have to, or I wont drive it off the lot. I am a big boy, duh Can anyone suggest what else I need them to check before this happens http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169370
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09-11-2008, 07:02 PM	#9
fasterthanyours New Member 5 Rep 7 Posts Drives: Chevy Colorado Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Charleston, SC iTrader: (0)	He has the tire care plan, whatever it's called, they have to replace the tires or rims. What really bites me is they didn't say they were replacing the left side tire that also has the irregular wear patterns. Plus how safe is it to drive around on tires that are brand new on the right side and have 5,000 miles on them on the left side. That's f'ed up!
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09-11-2008, 07:13 PM	#11
hotrod2448 grand poobah 254 Rep 2,253 Posts Drives: F80 M3, F10 535i Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Charlotte, NC iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 335d [0.00]	I can't believe you test drove a car with all that wrong and still bought it. I hate to say it (especially since it's been said already) but, that is pretty much why you don't buy a demo regardless of what the dealer tells you. Personally I think you are pretty much stuck with that car since they disclosed that it was essentially a "used" vehicle. You'll just have to get them to fix everything which sounds like an alignment to fix the misaligned steering wheel and tire wear, bleed brakes, trip to dent wizard, new window moldings, fuel pump and probably a progman update for the lights. Good luck.
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09-11-2008, 07:27 PM	#12
jmangel1 Private 1 Rep 76 Posts Drives: 2008 BMW 335i Coupe Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Cherry Hill, NJ iTrader: (0)	I am sorry to see your experience hasnt been that good. I would have told you not to buy a used BMW especially, the way the sales personell tell you on the test drive, floor it and see how it handles. People beat the crap out of demos. I test drove a new car on the back lot, but chose to buy a different one altogether. I think you have 72 hours to return it. At least in New Jersey. If you took delivery with all of the scratches, dents, messed up rims and stuff, and nothing is noted. They will probably say it wasnt there when you took the car. Be courteous, and polite and speak to the Service Director and/or Service Manager. Nicely tell them that you would like everything to be fixed as best as possible. Cause you really don't want to have to call BMW Customer Relations, cause you wouldn'd want to effect there reputation, which you heard from others is great. BE POSITIVE - They will work with you. Don't threaten, don't be nasty. Good Luck
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09-11-2008, 07:29 PM	#13
dwd08 Enlisted Member 7 Rep 30 Posts Drives: 2020 X3M Competition Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: IL iTrader: (1)	Can't really answer most of your questions except the one regarding pot hole damage. I messed up two rims on my E55 from a pot hole. Bent both the passenger front and rear really good. Dealer did a full check and the suspension was fine and all the car needed was an alignment. They replaced both rims and 4 tires. To answer your question a good size pot hole and the right speed can warp/bend a couple of tires without messing up the suspension. On a side note I traded in the E55 for a demo 335i not too long ago. I haven't had any problems with mine. However the GM was the only driver of it and he seemed to take good care of it. Had some minor scratches they were able to buff out and a dent in the bumper which I'm replacing with the M-Tech kit soon. They are taking 250 off the M-Tech package instead of fixing the rear bumper. Good luck with the repairs.
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09-11-2008, 10:23 PM	#18
xtremecruiser First Lieutenant 34 Rep 317 Posts Drives: 08 Waterfall Vert Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SC iTrader: (0)	Some hater posts insinuating I am stupid and cheep. I would have guessed I would have gotten suggestions on having the dealer check the front end, the suspension, alignment, steering, etc All of which I will have them check and get checked by my BMW tuner I have used for years
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09-11-2008, 10:57 PM	#19
kevinbahnz Captain 157 Rep 709 Posts Drives: 2008 335xi sedan Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Ma-NC iTrader: (1)	shouldnt have bought a car that was their "prime loaner". Werent you the one that put 87 octane in one of their loaners? Did you buy that laoner that was returned with 3 wheels? if the car is under CPo warranty then you should be OK. __________________
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09-12-2008, 01:16 AM	#22
genesis Private 0 Rep 54 Posts Drives: 2011 Z4 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: South Florida iTrader: (0)	Most of the issues you described are all related to the damaged wheels and alignment...Just let them do what needs to be done and re-evaluate it at that time...No sense in stressing out over it...The cars under warranty, they''ll take care of it... The Sirius radio needs to be activated by you...Call Sirius with the radio ESN and they will send a signal and activate it... The voice command system...I'm guessing you mean the bluetooth system...Did you pair it with your phone? Hard to start could be the fuel pump... The dents, dings and chips should have all been addressed at time of purchase in writing...If it wasn't, try being extremely nice and maybe they will help remedy them... The water leak is easy enough to show them... It sounds like you got a car that was driven hard....Hopefully you got it at a really good price to make all this worthwhile...I just bought an 08 demo last month with 4k miles on it...It is in brand new condition...You literally could not tell anyone had used it and they took over $10k off the sticker...
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