[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

When did the window punch occur?

I think around the 40 second mark when the BMW changed lanes and the squid continued to pass on the right.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Rain49king

I don't wanna come across as justifying the bike rider's behavior, they are obviously driving like idiot's. Regarding the gun though I am pretty sure this would be considered a crime even under the circumstances. Florida as most know has a stand your ground law but it is not as cut and dry as you might think. Once the driver of the BMW removed himself from his car he was engaging in conflict. Now if he remained in his car and was punched he or the passenger could have pulled out the gun or even fired upon the person. The gun laws are not to protect you from starting a fight then using your gun if you start to get your ass beat. I am resident of Florida and a legally armed citizen this subject is covered extensively in any gun permit class. I personally believe the guy in the BMW only confronted a bunch of guys on motorcycles because he felt secure in the fact he had a gun in his car. Like others have stated he should have called the police and let them deal with this situation, a simple tag number and phone call.

Totally agree. As for being a crime it's borderline and subjective. The law says you can draw if you feel you or another's is in danger of being killed. The woman may have felt that with 3 guys in gear beating her man to the ground. Like I said, it's close. The two times I drew, one a 6'3" 22 yr old opened my door saying he was going to beat my ass, and the other when I followed 2 guys who had just broken my windshield with a baseball at 85 mph to get their plate, I followed them till they stopped to get their plate and they got out of the car with a bat and crowbar and started walking to my car on either side. They were both over 6'4" and 250 lbs. Both cases I didn't exit the car and it diffused the situation . Hope I don't have to again but these would have been very different outcomes if I still lived in NJ.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Are you kidding? Cops can't catch bikes. Many law enforcement agencies have rules against even pursuing a rider on a sportbike. Why? Three reasons: it endangers the public, the success rate is virtually zilch, and the biggest one: it endangers the rider. And you did notice the blurred parts of the video? That wasn't the thing going out of focus; that was done to hide license plate numbers. Please.



Look at my initial post, where I say that armored riding gloves have been ruled as deadly weapons in several states. His life was in danger, and she likely feared for her own. She did the right thing.

Normally I would agree with you on the bike thing but this is a special circumstance. They were on the road going to the keys. There's typically a cop every few miles, no inlets or outlets for up to 30 miles. Easy to stop them without problems. As to what you said about the rulings u saw it. I just don't agree with it. Bike gloves aren't weighted. They just have a hard shell. It might cut you more when you get hit but the force of the impact won't be more as its still diffuse and so the actual damage caused besides a superficial cut wouldn't be more than a normal punch. Brass knuckles or a roll of quarters in your palm on the other hand are a different story. I wouldn't classify them deadly weapons. On the other hand, NJ for a decade called paint all guns illegal handguns so laws don't always make sense. But like I said, the woman didn't look like a good judge or experienced in determining what is life threatening and the law states if you feel your or another's life is threatened you can draw so even though to me it was borderline, considering her probable judgment ability and the circumstances it was barely legal in my opinion.

[Pparana]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Totally agree. As for being a crime it's borderline and subjective. The law says you can draw if you feel you or another's is in danger of being killed. The woman may have felt that with 3 guys in gear beating her man to the ground. Like I said, it's close. The two times I drew, one a 6'3" 22 yr old opened my door saying he was going to beat my ass, and the other when I followed 2 guys who had just broken my windshield with a baseball at 85 mph to get their plate, I followed them till they stopped to get their plate and they got out of the car with a bat and crowbar and started walking to my car on either side. They were both over 6'4" and 250 lbs. Both cases I didn't exit the car and it diffused the situation . Hope I don't have to again but these would have been very different outcomes if I still lived in NJ.

Glad I do not live in Orlando. Crowbars and baseball bats, attempted carjackings? Wtf are you into up there? Sounds like bad episodes of renegade.

[Fundguy1]

This isn't a stand your ground case. That would be if the bikers were chasing him and he said I'm not running. And this isn't a castle doctrine case, which is you attacked in your car, office or home. He chased them, and he got out of the car. And since they weren't raping him, the only other legal justification is she felt in her opinion his life was in danger. She was obviously frantic and terrified and her fear of him being killed to me looked genuine.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Pparana

Glad I do not live in Orlando. Crowbars and baseball bats, attempted carjackings? Wtf are you into up there? Sounds like bad episodes of renegade.

That was in Miami with the bats. The other was local. Kid passed me doing 60 in a 30 in a blind single lane each way area outside my neighborhood where my kid plays in a beat up modified civic. I was going 40 so i was like really? He was going the way I was so I followed him a few blocks at normal speed as there was traffic in front of us and he stomp braked me twice. Again I said really? He pulled into a neighborhood which was next to the supermarket I was going to. So I followed him in with the intention of taking his plate pic and reporting him. As I stopped he got out and started cursing me and acting tough. I told him I was going to tell his mom what he was doing and that's when he opened the door. Pretty cut and dry.

[Rain49king]

Originally Posted by m3legacy

SYG IS pretty cut and dried. If YOU feel your life is in danger you can fire. Simple as that.

But I don't think SYG would apply here. He'd already been attacked. One of "them" threw the first punch. Now it would appear it's simply self-defense.

Now if that (self-defense) would apply to the wife as well,,,,,,,, I'm not sure but I expect it would have.

Perhaps you could post a link to the pertinent facts vis-a-vis your gun permit class ?

I copy and pasted this statue, it is available online. Here is a couple reasons the driver or passenger had no right to pull the gun. 1) It's pretty clear these motorcycles where speeding therefore it took effort for this driver to keep himself in this situation, in other words he was pursing them looking for confrontation. 2) He exited his vehicle, that at the very least elevated the situation. 3) He stood in front of the guys motorcycle preventing him from removing himself from the situation. 4) The BMW driver never once tried to retreat. To me it looks like the driver did everything your no suppose to do if you are carrying a firearm. I am not saying Florida would have convicted the people in the car had anything happen, I am just saying this is clearly not the behavior the law is for. Now I am no fan of the motorcycle riders for driving like idiots, I also think they are cowards the way they jumped that guy.
776.041 Use or threatened use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use or threatened use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force or threat of force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use or threatened use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use or threatened use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use or threatened use of force.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102; s. 7, ch. 2014-195.

[Fundguy1]

Yes. Clearly not stand your ground. That law just gets a lot of national press because it has a catchy phrase attached to it like gun show loophole which is also a farse. So people jump to that then say ether it wasn't so what the person with the gun did was illegal or they don't understand the law and say see stand your ground law is wrong to allow this. It didn't even apply with trevon, or was questionable as Zimmerman was following him. That was more a self defense threat of being killed circumstance and ruling but the press made a big deal about it.

[Fundguy1]

There's millions of carry permits in Florida and 10s of millions nationally yet as a group carry permit holders do less gun crime than cops or any other group and at the same time stop approximately 10 million crimes a year by drawing. Every cop I speak to wishes more people eligible to carry would. And even in this circumstance the woman didn't need a carry permit to have that gun in Florida. You're allowed to have a loaded handgun in your glove box in a snap holster safety on as long as you're 21 and can legally possess it. Oh and for the curious it looked like a Ruger LCP .380 7 round automatic. Not that I know anything about this stuff. Lol

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

This isn't a stand your ground case. That would be if the bikers were chasing him and he said I'm not running. And this isn't a castle doctrine case, which is you attacked in your car, office or home. He chased them, and he got out of the car. And since they weren't raping him, the only other legal justification is she felt in her opinion his life was in danger. She was obviously frantic and terrified and her fear of him being killed to me looked genuine.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty well versed in the law as it regards motorcycle operation, even taken as far as cases such as this -- hence the riding-glove-as-deadly-weapon knowledge. (and the thing is, it really doesn't matter what you think, Fundguy1 ; the law has thought that in several cases.)

I disagree; to me, there is evidence that when he was boxed in -- an action by the bikers that effectively prevented him from running even if he wanted to, even after he sorta-kinda chased these guys -- this became a stand-your-ground case because he could not move his vehicle without potentially causing deadly harm to others. That's why he had to exit his car -- because if he hadn't, the bikers would have likely attacked him or his property. When he was punched -- hard enough to be staggered and knocked to the ground outside the lane, where a passing car could have run over him -- the woman exited her car and drew.

Then the bikers IMMEDIATELY backed off, and the video of that scene stopped. Again: keep in mind that this video is from the point of view of the bikers. That the video stopped then, to me, is indirect proof of editing that damns the riders. The only way we, or a court of law, would know the entire etory for sure is if the entire footage of that helmet cam were seen.

But as I said before -- this entire incident was caused by illegal behavior by the bikers. Not just speeding and recklessness: property damage, endangerment, assault. If a cop -- let's say, for grins, an undercover one in a car at that intersection -- was present at the fight scene, guess who would have been hauled to jail -- and guess who would have likely also drawn on the bikers?

[Fundguy1]

Maybe I'm a little more conservative about drawing etc but that's not a bad thing. In any event I'm sure though to me it's close it wasn't a crime.

[davesz4mc]

Really nobody knows all of what happened so it does not matter...

Personally to me it appeared the BMW started the video off lane blocking both lanes and the bikes just wanted past that BS hence the car tap of WTF. Then I imagine they may of stayed going a tad faster to stay ahead of the nut in the BMW. I personally feel if you start chasing someone and you are not a police officer then you do not get the protection of "stand your ground" no matter what happens.