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      05-23-2020, 04:31 PM   #8713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post
Which narrative bro? Don’t get mad please.
The one I called out, bro. In red.
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      05-23-2020, 04:33 PM   #8714
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
The one I called out, bro.
Can you post it again?
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      05-23-2020, 04:35 PM   #8715
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Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post
Can you post it again?
You're hilarious. Thanks for confirming my thoughts about you...Keyboard Warrior level: God-like.
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      05-23-2020, 04:37 PM   #8716
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
You're hilarious. Thanks for confirming my thoughts about you...Keyboard Warrior level: God-like.
Lol
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      05-23-2020, 04:44 PM   #8717
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
You're hilarious. Thanks for confirming my thoughts about you...Keyboard Warrior level: God-like.
MKSixer, instead of trying to find caveats in the phrasing (which btw. is just standard cautiously-passive scientific language), you should look at the presented Tables and Figures and tell me what is not clear to you. Data are very clear. No statistically significant clinical benefit for CQ/HCQ regimens in treatment of COVID-19 patients. Thatís it. End of the story.
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      05-23-2020, 04:49 PM   #8718
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Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post
MKSixer, instead of trying to find caveats in the phrasing (which btw. is just standard cautiously-passive scientific language), you should look at the presented Tables and Figures and tell me what is not clear to you. Data are very clear. No statistically significant clinical benefit for CQ/HCQ regimens in treatment of COVID-19 patients. That’s it. End of the story.
I knew you wouldn't address it. You're pathetic with weak sauce. There are serious limitations in this paper and you aren't honest enough to admit it. And I know that there isn't a statistical difference IN THIS PAPER.
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      05-23-2020, 04:56 PM   #8719
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
I knew you wouldn't address it. You're pathetic with weak sauce. There are serious limitations in this paper and you aren't honest enough to admit it. And I know that there isn't a statistical difference IN THIS PAPER.
Lol again. Which serious limitations? List them here.
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      05-23-2020, 04:57 PM   #8720
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Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post
Lol again. Which serious limitations? List them here.
Go back and read. The limitations they stated and a few others. We're done.
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      05-23-2020, 05:15 PM   #8721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Go back and read. The limitations they stated and a few others. We're done.
Just read through it. There is a lot of angry, asinine stuff in red. Iíll address it later today. Sadly, you are just a partisan hack. If this study found HCQ efficacious, you would be the first guy to post it on every possible forum.
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      05-23-2020, 05:19 PM   #8722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Go back and read. The limitations they stated and a few others. We're done.
There's dozens of papers on various trials now, including a few that are double blind. They all basically say the same thing except the first one out of France that was performed by an attention-seeker, had a tiny sample size, and that didn't even track outcomes and/or purposely ignored patients that died!

The problem is not that you are nitpicking. It's that you selectively nitpick with bias and use it to craft a narrative (The Lancet is a bad source) because it doesn't align with your political views.

You've decided to grill two peer reviewed and published articles in reputable journals now, which is fine. On the other hand, you've made posts like these about what is obvious actual fake news / fraudulent science:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
He's a legend in the world of virology. His suspicion of COVID-19 and it's origins aren't being heard.

Let it unfold. I am VERY curious about how this will resolve itself.

Cheers-mk

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.
There are more than these - but in the interest of time, they will do.

It is just so very coincidental, I am sure, that you are scrutinizing a trial on HCQ and a paper on the origins of the virus which do not agree with the views of your political affiliation. Meanwhile, you give barely a cursory look or post in support of stuff like the obviously fake Luc M. claims or the obviously fatally flawed "study" performed by Erickson (who isn't even an MD).

When you are willing to apply the same standards to all evidence, please let me know and then I can take your posts seriously again.

We expect this sort of stuff from NormanConquest, but you know better.
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      05-23-2020, 05:23 PM   #8723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post
Just read through it. There is a lot of angry, asinine stuff in red. Iíll address it later today. Sadly, you are just a partisan hack. If this study found HCQ efficacious, you would be the first guy to post it on every possible forum.
Not angry, at all. Just how I was taught to read a paper critically by people smarter than you.

And no, I wouldn't. Do you see me posting information touting his other moves with respect to COVID-19? No you don't. And I've responded negatively to what I believe are his errors.

As a partisan hack, you are absolutely top of the heap. You believe ANYTHING that is anti-Trump. Which is OK. Just don't say you're objective. You really aren't.

Cheers-mk
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      05-23-2020, 05:25 PM   #8724
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Malaria Drug

By the way, thought I'd add something of interest to the conversation-remember when Trump said that many frontline workers were taking the drug as some sort of prophylactic against the virus, completely safe, blah, blah?

Well, I checked it out with an ICU Nurse last evening, asking her if her cohorts in the ICU were imbibing as Trump claimed and she told me last week they lost 13 patients to COVID-19 but she said "no way, we have found it kills". It is total BS, at least at Long Beach Memorial Hospital.
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      05-23-2020, 05:28 PM   #8725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Not angry, at all. Just how I was taught to read a paper critically by people smarter than you.

And no, I wouldn't. Do you see me posting information touting his other moves with respect to COVID-19? No you don't. And I've responded negatively to what I believe are his errors.

As a partisan hack, you are absolutely top of the heap. You believe ANYTHING that is anti-Trump. Which is OK. Just don't say you're objective. You really aren't.

Cheers-mk
Can you point out where he's been biased in his discussion of scientific evidence in this thread?

Everyone has some bias here, no one should say that you are the only one. I dare say there is no human that is completely unaffected by cognitive bias.
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      05-23-2020, 05:31 PM   #8726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quick6 View Post
Malaria Drug

By the way, thought I'd add something of interest to the conversation-remember when Trump said that many frontline workers were taking the drug as some sort of prophylactic against the virus, completely safe, blah, blah?

Well, I checked it out with an ICU Nurse last evening, asking her if her cohorts in the ICU were imbibing as Trump claimed and she told me last week they lost 13 patients to COVID-19 but she said "no way, we have found it kills". It is total BS, at least at Long Beach Memorial Hospital.
They may not be taking it based on their perceptions, but we need to be impartial and data-driven about this. We still do need to run the trials in progress to completion to see the data before we conclude it cannot work as a prophylactic. While I think the data overwhelmingly shows that it is a total failure as a treatment in moderate to severe disease, we don't have enough data to conclude it is a total failure as a prophylaxis.

I'm not gonna put my money on it working, but we do need to investigate it fully and to completion.

It is unfortunate that this drug was politicized for no real reason.
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      05-23-2020, 05:33 PM   #8727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
There's dozens of papers on various trials now, including a few that are double blind. They all basically say the same thing except the first one out of France that was performed by an attention-seeker, had a tiny sample size, and that didn't even track outcomes and/or purposely ignored patients that died!

The problem is not that you are nitpicking. It's that you selectively nitpick with bias and use it to craft a narrative (The Lancet is a bad source) because it doesn't align with your political views.

You've decided to grill two peer reviewed and published articles in reputable journals now, which is fine. On the other hand, you've made posts like these about what is obvious actual fake news / fraudulent science:






There are more than these - but in the interest of time, they will do.

It is just so very coincidental, I am sure, that you are scrutinizing a trial on HCQ and a paper on the origins of the virus which do not agree with the views of your political affiliation. Meanwhile, you give barely a cursory look or post in support of stuff like the obviously fake Luc M. claims or the obviously fatally flawed "study" performed by Erickson (who isn't even an MD).

When you are willing to apply the same standards to all evidence, please let me know and then I can take your posts seriously again.

We expect this sort of stuff from NormanConquest, but you know better.
I've actually agreed with a great number of things you've posted with regard to the entire COVID-19 situation. There are areas that we have disagreed on which I'm ok with as we are different people with different experiences. I, however have been pretty good about not being disrespectful, launching into ad hominem attacks, and general name calling. I wish I could say the same for everyone here. It clearly isn't the case.

Cheers-MK
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      05-23-2020, 05:37 PM   #8728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Can you point out where he's been biased in his discussion of scientific evidence in this thread?

Everyone has some bias here, no one should say that you are the only one. I dare say there is no human that is completely unaffected by cognitive bias.
Isn't not considering the entirety of the paper not biased in itself?

And thank you for the emboldened response. No matter who we are, we have inherent biases and it shows up in almost everything we do. While it is true that the scientific method can mitigate that as can pure math, the narratives...that information which is actually communicated, can be shaded to point in one direction or another.

I only ask that no matter where one stands, there is enough intellectual honesty to admit that.

This is why I admitted my bias against the Lancet. It was relevant. Is it too much to ask that there is a recognition that any paper may have inherent bias written into the narrative?
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      05-23-2020, 05:38 PM   #8729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
I've actually agreed with a great number of things you've posted with regard to the entire COVID-19 situation. There are areas that we have disagreed on which I'm ok with as we are different people with different experiences. I, however have been pretty good about not being disrespectful, launching into ad hominem attacks, and general name calling. I wish I could say the same for everyone here. It clearly isn't the case.

Cheers-MK
I appreciate that, and I do regret how personal our previous exchange got. It doesn't change my opinion on what I think is your blind spot here, though.
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      05-23-2020, 05:52 PM   #8730
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I appreciate that, and I do regret how personal our previous exchange got. It doesn't change my opinion on what I think is your blind spot here, though.
That is fine and honest. I appreciate it, as well. I believe that you have a blind spot and aren't skeptical enough. Which is my opinion and 100 percent ok, as is yours.

Cheers-mk
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      05-23-2020, 05:55 PM   #8731
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Our rights are inherent, protected by the constitution. I already had the right to protect myself and property and speak freely and so on prior to the formation of the USA. No ruling that takes away my preexisting rights means anything.
Precisely. Thus the origin, and legal significance, of the term "unconstitutional."
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      05-23-2020, 05:56 PM   #8732
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Those are wrongs, agreed. It restricts govt not adds to what I already have. Same goes for you.
That's not fully correct: the Constitution restricts the FEDERAL government, it does NOT restrict THE STATE GOVERNMENTS.

This is why those "wrongs" were constitutional: State laws, state sovereignty, federalism.

And those same state law "wrongs" are a SCOTUS ruling away from happening again. Rulings can be overturned. If Trump is re-elected he's going to get at least 1, maybe two appointments; do you think those appointments will be anti- or pro- Brown-v-Board of Ed? Which way do you think MAGA leans?

The friends and neighbors of our grandparents didn't have the same rights as our grandparents did. So, yeah, those "wrongs" as you call them are a SCOTUS appointment away from happening again just 65 years later.
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      05-23-2020, 06:00 PM   #8733
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Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
Precisely. Thus the origin, and legal significance, of the term "unconstitutional."
So you'd tell black people that when SCOTUS upheld segregation as Constitutional in Plessy v. Ferguson it didn't mean anything and it was actually still unconstitutional?

See, you people that have no idea how fragile your "rights" are, or what guarantees them, are doomed to lose them. Magical thinking.

Ever heard of J'accuse or the Dreyfus Affair? Yeah, well, 35 years later the Jewish Holocaust happened.
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      05-23-2020, 06:04 PM   #8734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Thanks for the kind words. I feel the same way.
As for the Lancet, I admit that I am somewhat colored in my view of the paper from that retraction as well as a few others.
Now as for the content at hand. [...]
I hope that this gives insight about my thinking process, the questions I ask and the way I address clinical trials to all who believe that I'm an anti-science luddite. [...]
Cheers-mk
Thanks for having taken the time to address this aspect and to make your point. Don't give away too many details that could identify you.

Reason, criticism and scepticism: for your reading pleasure, two small excerpts from "Critique of Pure Reason" ("Kritik der reinen Vernunft") penned by the German philosopher Immanuel Kant back in 1781 & 1787 (Age of Enlightenment), pointing out scepticism as a 'resting-place' for reason, but never its 'permanent dwelling-place'.

A couple of thoughts about reason and criticism:
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A couple of thoughts about criticism and scepticism:
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