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      08-25-2016, 04:41 PM   #23
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You clearly didn't click this link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...LQG8vUnm_oMdMA

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Originally Posted by feuer View Post
Engine oil or AT oil? Engine oil never. AT oil always.
Engine oil. Early 335i's DID NOT have an oil cooler. They used a heat exchanger, attached to the oil filter housing, to cool the oil. Many other cars still have this...

OIL heat exchanger: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=11_3753

Automatics are even worse off because they also use an ATF to water heat exchanger to cool the automatic transmission fluid.

ATF heat exchanger: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=17_0319

This is why the PPK upgrades the radiator and the fan because when the kit was developed BMW was still using the coolant to cool the oil. Some peoples early 335i's were actually retrofitted by BMW with either an oil cooler or the PPK2 kit (for free) because their coolant temps kept overheating.

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Originally Posted by feuer View Post
What difference would make additional coolant radiator in traffic?
Increased power from PPK equals higher oil temps. Therefore, higher oil temps also meant higher coolant temps (I am talking about when BMW used the OIL to WATER heat exchanger). As Pete explained, you then need a larger/more efficient radiator to dispel that heat.

At speed, air is being forced through the front of the car. However, at idle, or in traffic, the car is relying on the FAN to PULL air through the radiator to dispel heat. At speed the upgraded PPK2 fan does nothing (at the track). But at idle, or <20mph, the fan is doing the cooling and when combined with the added auxiliary radiator capacity of the PPK2 coolant temps were able to be kept in check. Basically, PPK2 isn't really relevant anymore now that we have dedicated oil coolers and no oil to water heat exchanger.

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Originally Posted by feuer View Post
The two cooling functions are not separated on all n54/55 as on some coolant is still the solely cooling remedy. Engine oil was never tied with heat exchanger.
Not true. Again, read the 100 page PDF I posted on the engines design. BMW literally uses oil as a cooling agent, as well as a lubricating agent, for the bottom end of the engine. Oil is cooled by a dedicated oil cooler and water is cooled by the radiator. They cool two different parts of the engine and oil seems to be the real item that needs the most attention.

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Originally Posted by feuer View Post
Originally BMW had neither oil cooler nor additional coolant radiator. 1st the added on oil radiator 2nd when that was not enough they added additional coolant radiator and stronger fan for the existing radiator and not one more oil cooler. Do you doubt the engineers? I don't.
You have that backwards. BMW tried the aux radiator and the bigger fan with the PPK2 BEFORE they wised up and started shipping cars with the dedicated oil cooler. I am not doubting the engineers. I am literally providing you the info that they provided to use via the 100 page pdf I already linked.

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Originally Posted by feuer View Post
Only on AT as the coolant system is overwhelmed by cooling the engine oil and AT oil. People found rescue in upgraded oil coolers only because for a longest time upgraded coolant radiator for AT n54 did not exsisted, only for the MT n54. Now there are better coolant radiators for AT n54 and you know what? People that have upgraded those and left everything else as is do not experience issues. Why? Because no matter who you look at it coolant will remain the primarily cooling provider and everything else will be just a support.
If you understand the engine PDF, and what I am saying above, the coolant is NOT cooling the oil at all really. The cars with the Oil to water heat exchangers are the exception to that.

Pretty much everyone I've seen that has upgraded the radiator only have since also added an oil cooler. Their oil temps didn't actually go down at all upon follow up testing. People whose cars are still using the oil to water cooler might see different results.

Last edited by bNks334; 08-25-2016 at 05:12 PM..
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      08-25-2016, 05:08 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by justpete View Post
Couldn't be my car, it's never left North Texas.
I see. It was Mike. I believe.

I originally said there was no need to run the heater since coolant temps aren't an issue on our cars. It is obviously more complicated than that depending on what is under your hood.

I stand by my comments that BMW literally designed the engine with the oil and coolant jackets fairly well separated. However, IF someone is driving a car with the oil to water heat exchanger, then I agree that they will probably find more instant relief from temperature issues by upgrading the radiator first. This is only because oil is being cooled by the coolant and oil is where all the heat is coming from.

People who don't have the heat exchanger, and have a dedicated oil cooler, probably don't have coolant issues (except maybe AT). An argument should be made for At cars to run a dedicated trans cooler. The coolant runs the ATF fluid TOO HOTT on track. This in turn would help alleviate some burden on the radiator as well. People with the dedicated oil cooler, really just need to increase the capacity to keep oil temps down. That in turn should drop coolant temps a few degrees as a side effect.

Last edited by bNks334; 08-25-2016 at 05:15 PM..
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      08-25-2016, 05:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
I see. It was Mike. I believe.

I originally said there was no need to run the heater since coolant temps aren't an issue on our cars. It is obviously more complicated than that depending on what is under your hood.

I stand by my comments that BMW literally designed the engine with the oil and coolant jackets fairly well separated. However, IF someone is driving a car with the oil to water heat exchanger, then I agree that they will probably find more instant relief from temperature issues by upgrading the radiator first. This is only because oil is being cooled by the coolant and oil is where all the heat is coming from.

People who don't have the heat exchanger, and have a dedicated oil cooler, probably don't have coolant issues (except maybe AT). An argument should be made for At cars to run a dedicated trans cooler. The coolant runs the ATF fluid TOO HOTT on track. This in turn would help alleviate some burden on the radiator as well. People with the dedicated oil cooler, really just need to increase the capacity to keep oil temps down. That in turn should drop coolant temps a few degrees as a side effect.
Probably Mike's, yes.

I've read that pdf several times over the years, very helpful. While the coolant and oil are more isolated than usual they do couple, if weakly, as I mentioned. It would be impossible for them not to given the thermally conductive mass of the engine, in general.

Regardless, I have to agree that a separate AT cooler would be a good thing for those who track them.

And the oil cooler in my car is sized per Setrab although I'm sure it's just a generalization. Don't really care because adding the cooler was so damn cheap, even with BMRS fittings/lines and an Accusump -- cheap insurance. I expect to exceed their higher limit eventually but I doubt the cooler will need to be upsized. Datalogging will tell for sure though.
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      08-25-2016, 05:27 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
People who don't have the heat exchanger, and have a dedicated oil coolel
Did I read the article? No. I didn't had to as after 4 years working on 335i I'm yet to see one with the said coolant to oil heat exchanger. On x3 and x5 with same engine yes but not the 335i. The early 335i didn't have nothing but a simple OFH, yes coolant goes thru there but that is not a heat exchanger. Then they added Oil thermostat housing to the OFH and oil radiator to the right wheel well, and lastly additional coolant radiator in the left wheel well on PPK 135i and 335is
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      08-27-2016, 10:18 AM   #27
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So, I was in the field for work all week and decided to take a detour through the Catskills to get home. Let me start by saying that at 79f running the heater wasn't too bad. As I drove downstate NY the temps rose to close to 95* and it was brutal. I was generally in 3rd or 4th at around 4-6k rpms the entire ride.

In this first pic the heater is OFF. At 215f coolant temps oil was stable at 248f and I was beating on the car. On track I'd expect to see coolant go up a bit more and oil hit as high as 280-290f since it's a steady 20-30minutes of abuse instead of short bursts of up and then down hill coasting.



You can see the delta in temperatures between now and a few minutes ago when the heater had been on full blast. In order to achieve those lows I had to cruise at 60mph @2krpms. At cruising speed, and in town, the heater was doing a fantastic job of keeping all temps low. Coolant had been on target at 185f and oil was as low as 235f.

Here is a pic of what thing looked like with the heater on and driving HARD:



As soon as I started back up the hills, at 80+ in 3rd, oil went back up to about 246f while coolant temps stayed low at 185f. Albeit the rise in oil temps did take longer. The heater blowing definitely helped keep coolant temps down, but the increase in cooling ability was only delaying the inevitable rise in oil temps.

How could coolant temps stay at 185f while oil rose from 235f back up to 246f? that is only 2f less than when coolant temps were at 215f and oil was at 248... This goes back to my point that there is a breaking point (q-dot) to how fast the cooling system can remove heat from the engine.

So basically a 30f reduction in coolant temps were helping me see 2-3f lower oil temps (in abusive conditions). At <20 mph, and at highway speeds, running the heater did indeed help keep ALL temps lower. After doing all sorts of variations of testing over those 4 hours I can see how people might jump to the conclusion a radiator helped lower their oil temps but as soon as they got on track their oil still overheated.

I had better pics of how coolant stayed low with the heater on and oil went back up (in some cases back up to 249f as coolant was below 190f), but my phones microsd card is going bad and they are currupt.

After all this, do I agree there is room to upgrade the radiator? YES. Do I think a radiator is going to solve oil problems on track? NOPE. Hence, why people are obsessed with upgrading their oil coolers!

Here is what the route looked like for reference:


Last edited by bNks334; 08-27-2016 at 11:56 AM..
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      08-27-2016, 11:12 AM   #28
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Wow, this is one of the BEST threads I've read in a while.
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      08-29-2016, 10:13 AM   #29
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here is a data point from being on track at Mid-Ohio. It was in the 80s. First time tracking with an OBDII tool, so I don't have any others to compare to. This is with about 1/3 coolant, 2/3 water, and a bottle of WW.

edit- this was also with the heater on about 78, center vents closed, side vents vented out the window.

View post on imgur.com
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      08-30-2016, 03:20 AM   #30
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it's one of those things...

I recently purchased this OBDII HUD display toy that can display coolant temp, batt voltage, rpm and mph. My intention was to read the rpm, cus my car is so quiet that I hear every other cars but mine. I was having hard time knowing what rpm I'm in so instead of looking down I bought this to see the rpm in HUD. Good idea, not so good execution.

In testing this HUD, when I monitor water temp, during normal drive the water temp goes up to around 220f and than goes down to maybe 190f and than goes back up to 220f and back down again. It seems my thermostat opens around 220f and closes around 190f(approximately, it's a $28.00 toy).
But when I drive with my heater on, the water temp took much longer to reach 220f. It eventually reached 220f and went through the whole up and down cycle but the cycle took much longer.

in track situation during hot summer days, if using heater does not bother you at all, I don't think it's a bad idea to save your thermostat and electric water pump from doing some additional work.
it's one of those things that it can't hurt but it can only help.

http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Kirk...qxxk1.jpg.html

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      08-30-2016, 12:38 PM   #31
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You guys are seriously over thinking this. Both oil and coolant can be used to shed thermal energy from the block. The obsession with big oil cooler because up until recently it was much easier to hook up some large oil coolers instead of a custom radiator.

That said, coolant is a more efficient medium for heat transfer (lower viscosity, faster heat transfer) than engine oil. One should consider upgrading the radiator first before touching the oil coolant. Plus, a more efficient coolant system will lower the load in the fragile water pump that we on this engine.

Turning on the heater will help, but only marginally. The air flow from the air con fan is no match for the air flow that the front radiator sees. Plus your heater core is tiny comparing to the radiator, which is already undersized for a modded N54.
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      08-30-2016, 08:24 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
You guys are seriously over thinking this. Both oil and coolant can be used to shed thermal energy from the block. The obsession with big oil cooler because up until recently it was much easier to hook up some large oil coolers instead of a custom radiator.

That said, coolant is a more efficient medium for heat transfer (lower viscosity, faster heat transfer) than engine oil. One should consider upgrading the radiator first before touching the oil coolant. Plus, a more efficient coolant system will lower the load in the fragile water pump that we on this engine.

Turning on the heater will help, but only marginally. The air flow from the air con fan is no match for the air flow that the front radiator sees. Plus your heater core is tiny comparing to the radiator, which is already undersized for a modded N54.
Yep, and that's why I got C&R to make me a custom drop-in radiator. But iirc water pump failures have been mostly electronic rather than mechanical so I'm not entirely sure allowing the pump to run at a lower rate will extend its life a whole lot.
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      08-31-2016, 12:21 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
Yep, and that's why I got C&R to make me a custom drop-in radiator. But iirc water pump failures have been mostly electronic rather than mechanical so I'm not entirely sure allowing the pump to run at a lower rate will extend its life a whole lot.
Mine failed at high load/temp with the rotor inside the pump making funny noises as it spin while I was on track a few months ago. Sounds mechanical to me...

Curious as to why you went with custom radiator since there are drop-in options already on the market? Did you go with a significantly larger core? Nvm, you have N52. How hot does that engine get on track?
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      08-31-2016, 08:04 AM   #34
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This is thread is way too overly complex. These n52/n54/n55 engines run hot

If you track hard you will push engine oil temps close to 300f and the computer will reduce power. That includes the n52. To eliminate this, add an engine oil cooler or increase the size of your current cooler and add a remote thermostat that opens at a lower temp than stock

If you track an automatic, add a larger trans oil cooler in addition to an engine oil cooler.

That's really it in a nutshell. If you do these things and still see nigh engine coolant temps, look at upgrading your radiator, but I would do that one last.

Last edited by Neversatisfied1; 08-31-2016 at 08:50 AM..
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      08-31-2016, 09:19 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
Mine failed at high load/temp with the rotor inside the pump making funny noises as it spin while I was on track a few months ago. Sounds mechanical to me...

Curious as to why you went with custom radiator since there are drop-in options already on the market? Did you go with a significantly larger core? Nvm, you have N52. How hot does that engine get on track?
Sounds mechanical to me, too. Wasn't too impressed with existing offerings so I had the shop ship a new radiator to C&R to copy. They used the same core they use on their NASCAR Sprint Cup car radiators so it's nicely overkill. All this was done to be prepared for higher power from a race built engine, not concerned about current 270-280bhp operating temps on the track. Same with the oil cooler, just looking ahead.
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      09-01-2016, 04:48 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny View Post
I recently purchased this OBDII HUD display toy that can display coolant temp, batt voltage, rpm and mph. My intention was to read the rpm, cus my car is so quiet that I hear every other cars but mine. I was having hard time knowing what rpm I'm in so instead of looking down I bought this to see the rpm in HUD. Good idea, not so good execution.

In testing this HUD, when I monitor water temp, during normal drive the water temp goes up to around 220f and than goes down to maybe 190f and than goes back up to 220f and back down again. It seems my thermostat opens around 220f and closes around 190f(approximately, it's a $28.00 toy).
But when I drive with my heater on, the water temp took much longer to reach 220f. It eventually reached 220f and went through the whole up and down cycle but the cycle took much longer.

in track situation during hot summer days, if using heater does not bother you at all, I don't think it's a bad idea to save your thermostat and electric water pump from doing some additional work.
it's one of those things that it can't hurt but it can only help.

http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Kirk...qxxk1.jpg.html
The car targets various coolant temps depending on driving conditions. The fluctuations you saw were meaningless. The temp swings you are talking about sound like the differences seen in temperature due to normal driving conditions.

Everything I posted above was in reference to temperatures while operating the car at a constant high load with the car running in open map mode.
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      09-01-2016, 04:56 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
You guys are seriously over thinking this. Both oil and coolant can be used to shed thermal energy from the block. The obsession with big oil cooler because up until recently it was much easier to hook up some large oil coolers instead of a custom radiator.

That said, coolant is a more efficient medium for heat transfer (lower viscosity, faster heat transfer) than engine oil. One should consider upgrading the radiator first before touching the oil coolant. Plus, a more efficient coolant system will lower the load in the fragile water pump that we on this engine.

Turning on the heater will help, but only marginally. The air flow from the air con fan is no match for the air flow that the front radiator sees. Plus your heater core is tiny comparing to the radiator, which is already undersized for a modded N54.
Not sure why you would still recommend that upgrade path after reading the thread. People go into limp first because of oil temps. You can maintain a "normal" coolant operating temp all day on track yet engine oil temps will continue to climb and climb so long as you continue to maintain high revs.

By running the heater I was literally able to shed 30f from coolant temps yet oil temps really didn't drop one damn bit (unless I was just causing around). To add to that every single person who upgraded their radiator still ended up needing a bigger oil cooler to run on track without hitting oil limp. Based on that 30f drop I do agree that there is room to upgrade the stock rad. That in turn will keep injectors cooler and help produce more power (leading to even worse off oil tems only mitigated by the increased cooling capacity )

Last edited by bNks334; 09-01-2016 at 05:30 PM..
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      09-01-2016, 06:16 PM   #38
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Seriously? This discussion went on for 2 pages?

Used to be, turning on the heater on track is the LAST resort on an engine with serious cooling issues. Those that track, before the mighty E9X platform, KNEW that by having to turn on the heater to siphon off heat from WATER it belies a much larger problem and it is but a bandaid on a GSW. And not a GSW from a tiny little .22, but a GSW from a .44 magnum. Turning on the heater on track is what you do to LIMP back to the pit so you can shut down the car without the engine block going full Chernobyl.

For YOU people to sit here and discuss the "finer" merits of turning on the heater while on track? You are ALL missing the point. There are bigger issues with some of these BMW not being track worthy right out of the box. Turning on the heater to track your car?

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      09-01-2016, 06:36 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
You guys are seriously over thinking this. Both oil and coolant can be used to shed thermal energy from the block. The obsession with big oil cooler because up until recently it was much easier to hook up some large oil coolers instead of a custom radiator.

That said, coolant is a more efficient medium for heat transfer (lower viscosity, faster heat transfer) than engine oil. One should consider upgrading the radiator first before touching the oil coolant. Plus, a more efficient coolant system will lower the load in the fragile water pump that we on this engine.

Turning on the heater will help, but only marginally. The air flow from the air con fan is no match for the air flow that the front radiator sees. Plus your heater core is tiny comparing to the radiator, which is already undersized for a modded N54.
Not sure why you would still recommend that upgrade path after reading the thread. People go into limp first because of oil temps. You can maintain a "normal" coolant operating temp all day on track yet engine oil temps will continue to climb and climb so long as you continue to maintain high revs.

By running the heater I was literally able to shed 30f from coolant temps yet oil temps really didn't drop one damn bit (unless I was just causing around). To add to that every single person who upgraded their radiator still ended up needing a bigger oil cooler to run on track without hitting oil limp. Based on that 30f drop I do agree that there is room to upgrade the stock rad. That in turn will keep injectors cooler and help produce more power (leading to even worse off oil tems only mitigated by the increased cooling capacity )
People trigger limp mode because of coolant temp. Not oil, which doesn't trigger anything until you hit 300F. Read up on the literature on N54.

End of the discussion...
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      09-01-2016, 08:11 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
People trigger limp mode because of coolant temp. Not oil, which doesn't trigger anything until you hit 300F. Read up on the literature on N54.

End of the discussion...
Never seen anyone hit coolant limp before their car began to reduce torque due to oil temps. Personally, my coolant temp never went above 110c on track even when oil touched 290f...

Also, I specifically mentioned n55 in my comments. If you read the pdf I posted the n55 has some serious modifications done to oil flow.

Not sure about n54 though... maybe coolant is more of an issue with that engine.

My entire argument was to stop the spread of misinformation from the people saying there is no reason to upgrade the oil cooler. They suggested you really need to upgrade your radiator. I then countered by proving that at WOT under full load engine coolant is not the primary cooling agent for keeping engine oil temps in check. I proved a massive reduction in coolant temps didnt really have any bearing on oil temps. N55 engine design supports the conclusion I came to that bmw is using engine oil as a cooling agent and the oil cooler is indeed the first bottleneck allowing oil temps to continue to creep up.

No one, not even a venor, has provided any contradicting data that actually supports a radiator upgrade can effectively manage oil temps on track.

I think the differeration in opinion actual stems ffrom all of us driving different cars. Like I said, the answer to the question is more complicated than yes or no. It all depends on what's under the hood and what your data logs show... n55 or n54? Auto or manual? External oil cooler or no?

Last edited by bNks334; 09-01-2016 at 08:29 PM..
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      09-01-2016, 11:44 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
I proved a massive reduction in coolant temps didnt really have any bearing on oil temps. N55 engine design supports the conclusion I came to that bmw is using engine oil as a cooling agent and the oil cooler is indeed the first bottleneck allowing oil temps to continue to creep up.No one, not even a venor, has provided any contradicting data that actually supports a radiator upgrade can effectively manage oil temps on track.
wow you really love your n55! Anyhow, still failed to provide explanation why bmw engineers optioned for additional coolant not oil radiator in the ppk and faster fan which includes your praised n55 as well which has this supposedly amazing features allowing supperior oil flow and oil cooling compared to n54 or n52. Perhaps because you are correct? Oil cooling was exellent thus no need for addtional oil cooler. Yes? If this is true then you conradict yourself advocaing that biger, better oil cooler is indeed needed for the n55. Is oxymoron no? I have already given you the chronology of "fixes" bmw offered. No oil cooler > oil cooler > oil cooler + additinal coolant radiator. Never engine to coolant heat exchanger on these chassis, e8x and e9x. I'm not saying that bmw in particular knew what they are doing but can tell you that pretty much all vendors sure did not. They wanted to sell and for a while they could only sell you oil radiator. Additionally, untill recently many linked reduced power at track solely due to high coolant-oil temperatures, most threads created had no data support, and how we know it could be also due to calculated high temperature in brake system with option be coded out. Coolant will always be primarily sourse of engine cooling even on engines that are stationary, like generators, and probably we won't ever see one without it. Oil cooler on the other hand, well you know...

Last edited by feuer; 09-01-2016 at 11:56 PM..
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      09-02-2016, 04:22 AM   #42
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I just don't see how this is a coolant issue and not an oil temp issue.
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      09-02-2016, 07:51 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom
I just don't see how this is a coolant issue and not an oil temp issue.
It is easier to shed heat with water based coolant than oil... Basic physics...

End of the discussion. Lol
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      09-02-2016, 08:58 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
It is easier to shed heat with water based coolant than oil... Basic physics...

End of the discussion. Lol
You're right that coolant sheds heat better than oil. There is no argument there. However, you can't just apply that old notion to every platform blindly. Every shred of evidence suggests otherwise for the N55. Post some data and I'll believe it when I see it.
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