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      08-06-2023, 06:08 PM   #3455
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Must add I've done 300k miles overall in various bmw all serviced and maintained well.
Only unscheduled expense was £180 on an airbag. That's it.
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      08-06-2023, 09:10 PM   #3456
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Must add I've done 300k miles overall in various bmw all serviced and maintained well.
Only unscheduled expense was £180 on an airbag. That's it.
I've had nothing but luck with four BMWs. The only concern though in keeping a newer car long term would be all of the entropy built into any modern car and the electronics. Seems like something will break even if well engineered. Just so much stuff to go wrong in the more recent vehicles.
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      08-06-2023, 09:28 PM   #3457
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I find it interesting that reliability is brought up with a brand that at one time really conformed to the ad slogan of "The Ultimate Driving Machine."

I bought my BMW not for brand prestige to be a poser for the everyday folk. I bought my BMW because of the basic tenants of it being performance oriented. With that said, it's expected a brand that has this as its basic tenant would be always pushing the technological envelope. With that comes a degree of assumed service. It's all the posers that want to get into a specific brand that waters down things because they bring along the mentality of expecting Toyota reliability. Many of them scraped up enough cash to just get the vehicle but don't have anything left to deal with maintenance or repairs. This has diluted the brand.

The whole argument of BMW not being durable/reliable can be put to rest with the B58 and Toyota entering into the partnership with BMW on the Supra. I highly doubt Toyota would do such a thing if they didn't think the engineering and the durability/reliability wasn't there.
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      08-07-2023, 01:11 AM   #3458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Yeah... I know, TL;DR. But you asked for a "debate".
Actually, this stemmed from me calling into question your claim about BMWís reputation for reliability or durability. My anecdotes for sure donít prove anything, I completely agree since they were part of a different discussion. We had a brief discussion about actual reliability/durability and then you made a claim about their reputation, which is the topic of debate at this point. You still have not addressed the argument, but fair enough this went off the rails a bit. Iíll give you a chance to provide proof that BMWs have a reputation for durability (if thatís what you want to call it).

If you want to get back to the discussion about ACTUAL reliability or durability, thatís fine as well once we have concluded this branch of the debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Murf and several others understood the point I made and augmented my point.
If you think this brings validity to your statements, this is an appeal to authority fallacy

Last edited by fcman; 08-07-2023 at 02:13 AM..
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      08-07-2023, 03:58 AM   #3459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
I've had nothing but luck with four BMWs. The only concern though in keeping a newer car long term would be all of the entropy built into any modern car and the electronics. Seems like something will break even if well engineered. Just so much stuff to go wrong in the more recent vehicles.
Very true things like seat electrics can get issues and when they do out of warranty it's a 4 figure job. Whereas manual adjust seats would just keep working fine.
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      08-07-2023, 07:37 AM   #3460
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When I woke up to the rear ECU and every electronic bit behind the seats not working, only a year into a new car, I knew long term I had to get rid of the BMW. It was also affected by the timing belt guide-should have been a recall.
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      08-07-2023, 07:54 AM   #3461
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Interesting to see if there will be any general pivots in the auto market-

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/07/econo...try/index.html

There seems to be mixed messaging everywhere on what's good vs bad... on the one hand, we have record profits from BMW and on the other hand, we have a slowing industry... either there is mass misguided propaganda everywhere or outlying factors such as a shift to EVs isn't working out to well.
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      08-07-2023, 08:12 AM   #3462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
This is easy. First, stop blending the words reliability and durability because they have different definitions. You are again trying to agrue a point that I did not make. My initial post about comparing my E90 to the dead-battery Tesla was about durability. You brought the subject up regarding reliability because you think you can win the discussion by moving it to reliability. Yet, I put that discussion to rest regardless.

Regarding durability, I pointed to the magazine Roundel, which is published by the BMW car club of America BMWCCA. While I do not have the capability to cite every article that supports the subject of durability that the magazine has published in the past 50 years it has been in circulation, you can search for yourself thousands of references to the magazine regarding durability.

Secondly I'll point to BMWs own support of their automobiles. Having owned other brands as well as BMWs, BMW by far supports its customer-owned fleet better than most any other manufacturer. I kept the E30 for 18 years as a daily driver from 1988 to 2006. BMW kept nearly every original equipment part for it in stock for the entirety of my ownership. Today, 17 years later, most of the E30 parts are still available from BMW. In 2017 we took our then 20 year old Z3 on a 2-week road trip from the east coast to the Rocky Mountains. In prep for the trip I went through the car to check on parts that could have failed. Mostly rubber and plastics I was able to buy from BMW obscure cooling system parts like the elbow that comes off the rear of the M44 cylinderhead. Also the in-dash clock module had long lost its readout. I decided to replace it for the trip, 20 years later BMW still had the clock module in stock. The Z3 is by far not one of BMWs highest volume models, yet to this day, 26 years later I can still get most of the OE parts from BMW; I just bought OE brake hoses for it 6 months ago. A year ago I bought a new OE left headlight for the Z3.

And, I'll point to my Z4. Now 15 years old and just a total 11,700-unit production run (worldwide), I can still get nearly every part for it other than the trunk mat and mud guards.

The point is BMW supports its cars at ages past production that most all other manufacturers don't. OE parts availability from the manufacturer alone point to BMW's reputation of durability. The company wouldn't provide such support if it was not profitable to do so.
These examples may show that bmw is committed to the long term for its vehicles, but they do not say anything about BMW’s reputation for building long lasting cars. And keep in mind, you are now discussing the AGE of cars, not the mileage or the overall durability. And the availability of parts has no direct correlation to durability either.

Last edited by fcman; 08-07-2023 at 09:13 AM..
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      08-07-2023, 09:41 AM   #3463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I've always been discussing age and mileage since the get go. My first post was referenced my 17 year old, 421K mile E90. Last post I discussed the Z3 that has 197,000 miles, and my Z4 at 15 years and 119,000 miles. I'm the embodiment of aged, high-mileage BMWs. There are posts you can find where members of this forum have stated my documenting the life of my E90 is a significant reason why they bought their E90 and either maintain it, or correct prior poor maintenance behavior by previous owners.

Your unfortunate position is you really don't have enough background on the brand and don't really know BMW history very well to discuss this. I've been involved with BMWs since the late 1970s and direct ownership since 1988, I'm well versed in the subject matter, but I'm not going to regurgitate BMW's history because it's already well documented elsewhere and I don't have the time.

Like I said earlier, BMW supports its cars decades longer than other manufacturers do their cars with parts availability. This is a significant marker regarding longevity of BMWs because no corporation operates its various divisions at a financial loss unless it is trying to gain market share in a new operating space. Building durable automobiles that age well and reach high mileages is exactly why BMW provides OE parts for 20+ years after the model has ended production. My Z3 is a perfect example.

You can also jump over to E90 post to the "What did you do to your car today?" Thread, which is now up to 1,040 pages. The members on that thread enthusiastically discuss repairing their E9X cars, the newest which can be at minimum 10 years old come October. Most cars discussed are well over 15 years old and well past 100,000 miles.
Again, nothing here is proving that BMW has a reputation for building long lasting cars.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/...ish/reputation
Quote:
reputation

the opinion that people in general have about someone or something, or how much respect or admiration someone or something receives, based on past behavior or character

Please provide proof that people in general view BMWs as long lasting


Quote:
There are posts you can find where members of this forum have stated my documenting the life of my E90 is a significant reason why they bought their E90 and either maintain it, or correct prior poor maintenance behavior by previous owners.
If anything I would say that this is arguing against your point, and that people generally do not think of BMWs as being durable. But their opinion changes once they begin to research and understand the nuances

Last edited by fcman; 08-07-2023 at 10:05 AM..
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      08-07-2023, 10:22 AM   #3464
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      08-07-2023, 10:47 AM   #3465
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The Life of an EV Battery From Cradle to Grave ó and Why Recycling Is Still So Hard

After a battery serves out its useful lifeóthe length of which depends heavily on the number of charge cycles it's experienced, environmental conditions, and its daily useóit then needs to go through a disposal process.

This brings us to one of the most common points made by EV skeptics: pollution. Itís no secret that batteries are an absolute environmental disaster to produceóa vehicle with a range of 250 miles is estimated to produce 68 percent higher manufacturing emissions when compared to building a gasoline-powered vehicle. While this doesnít account for tailpipe emissions produced during a combustion vehicle's service life, it certainly speaks volumes about the manufacturing impact of a BEV.

And what happens after a pack reaches the end of its usable life? Do all those cells just end up in a landfill somewhere? Not exactly, though not far off either. The industry is still trying to figure out the best way to reclaim old batteries to reduce environmental impact and avoid simply running out of lithium altogether, but the process is far from ideal.

Regardless, after an electric car battery is disassembled, its internal components can be shredded and sorted, resulting in the rather sinister sounding clump of materials known as "black mass." Within the black mass is a wealth of valuable materials already mined from the earth: carbon, graphite, cobalt, nickel, manganese, and lithium to name just a few.

Pyro reclaiming uses extreme levels of heat (around 1,500 degrees Celsius) to reclaim materials through smelting. It does a great job at recovering cobalt, copper, and nickel. It also burns off graphite and any solvents, but that contributes to the process' rather high emissions output. It also doesn't do a great job at recovering lithium, as much of it is turned into slag (a waste byproduct) during the process, which isn't really financially viable to be turned back into usable material.

But battery longevity could also lead to a new view of car buying for the next driving generation. Tesla's Straubel, who started a battery recycling venture called Redwood Materials, believes that it's less likely that EV owners will replace aging batteries versus replacing a complete vehicle.

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/the-li...-still-so-hard

The bad news for EV's is as evident as the nose on your face yet it keeps getting ignored. The Sheep don't know, the wolves don't want to know.
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      08-07-2023, 11:01 AM   #3466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcman View Post
Again, nothing here is proving that BMW has a reputation for building long lasting cars.

Please provide proof that people in general view BMWs as long lasting
moving the goal posts again? Logical Fallacies to defeat logical fallacies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
High mileage BMWs are common place. They literally have that reputation.
"Joe Biden has done great things for inflation, people say Joe Biden has a reputation as a brilliant economist".

How does one prove any of that ^ ?

How does anyone disprove it?

Anecdotes? biased surveys? measure every man, woman, and child?

Lower your standards. This isn't a debate that requires scientific standards of absolute proof, it's a discussion.

Last edited by chad86tsi; 08-07-2023 at 11:06 AM..
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      08-07-2023, 11:08 AM   #3467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
either there is mass misguided propaganda everywhere or outlying factors such as a shift to EVs isn't working out to well.
Never underestimate the power of government largesse or as I like to call income redistribution. In this case from the middle class to the wealthy.
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      08-07-2023, 11:09 AM   #3468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
moving the goal posts again? Logical Fallacies to defeat logical fallacies?



"Joe Biden has done great things for inflation, people say Joe Biden has a reputation as a brilliant economist".

How does one prove any of that ^ ?

How does anyone disprove it?

Anecdotes? biased surveys? measure every man, woman, and child?

Lower your standards. This isn't a debate that requires scientific standards of absolute proof, it's a discussion.
Not a logical fallacy to ask for proof of a claim, nor is it moving the goalposts. Consumer surveys would be a great start and at least open the debate and provide a basis for his claim.
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      08-07-2023, 11:13 AM   #3469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So, what people? Should I just walk the streets of the top 35 cities in the US and just ask random people if they think BMWs build long lasting durable vehicles? Or should I get PII and ask just BMW owners throughout the USA? Should I pay tens of thousands of dollars to get vehicle registration data (which really doesn't record milage use data) and perform some data analytics? Perhaps VIN data; I'll go to all 50 states and ask for BMW VIN information and that will tell us at least the age of BMWs by VIN for each state. I'll spend the next year of my life collecting data just to prove my point, again, which I've already proven seveal different ways so far. Lol.

I'll offer that BMW has done the data analytics and basis its OE parts business forecast. Low and behold, it still routinely offers parts for models 25, 30, and 40 years old.
You made the claim, how you decide to provide supporting evidence or proof is up to you. Consumer surveys would be a great start though imo, though sampling BMW owners only would be a flawed methodology
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      08-07-2023, 11:37 AM   #3470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcman View Post
Not a logical fallacy to ask for proof of a claim, nor is it moving the goalposts. Consumer surveys would be a great start and at least open the debate and provide a basis for his claim.
Burden of proof logical fallacy:



The concept of "burden of proof" is a 2 way street.



changing the terms or reach of a claim to debunk it is not debunking the original claim.

Doing both at the same time is, well, kinda sad

It may advance a discussion to bring up these terms, but it's not "winning", and no one owes you a response on your terms.

We aren't a defending a PHD thesis here, no one owes you the replies you want.
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      08-07-2023, 11:45 AM   #3471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
Burden of proof logical fallacy:



The concept of "burden of proof" is a 2 way street.



changing the terms or reach of a claim to debunk it is not debunking the original claim.

Doing both at the same time is, well, kinda sad

It may advance a discussion to bring up these terms, but it's not "winning", and no one owes you a response on your terms.

We aren't a defending a PHD thesis here, no one owes you the replies you want.
"Burden of Proof" is not a logical fallacy, "Shifting the burden of proof" is. He made a claim, I asked for proof, if he asked me for proof that disproved his claim, that could potentially be Shifting the Burden. He has not asked for me to do that though so no shifting burden fallacy has been made by either of us

Again, I never moved the goalposts, he made a claim, I asked for proof of the exact claim he made. He has not provided any basis for his claim.

Last edited by fcman; 08-07-2023 at 12:03 PM..
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      08-07-2023, 12:01 PM   #3472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcman View Post
"Burden of Proof" is not a logical fallacy, "Shifting the burden of proof" is. He made a claim, I asked for proof.
Logic tells us such a claim can never be proven.

If I write "Trump was a great president, it's well known", and you demand I prove it, can I? If I can't, does that mean you win and the claim is thus false? Whatever methods you could use to "Prove" such a claim can also be used to "diss-prove" it.

Whatever methods you could use to "Diss-Prove" such a claim can also be used to "Prove" it.

This is why it's considered Logical fallacy ...

Quote:
Again, I never moved the goalposts, he made a claim, I asked for proof of the exact claim he made. He has not provided any basis for his claim.
You didn't ask him to defend his comment, you asked him to defend your summary of it, and added more descriptive terms to your standard to be met. You literally moved the goal post.
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      08-07-2023, 12:10 PM   #3473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
Logic tells us such a claim can never be proven.

If I write "Trump was a great president, it's well known", and you demand I prove it, can I? If I can't, does that mean you win and the claim is thus false? Whatever methods you could use to "Prove" such a claim can also be used to "diss-prove" it.

Whatever methods you could use to "Diss-Prove" such a claim can also be used to "Prove" it.

This is why it's considered Logical fallacy ...
No logical fallacy has been committed

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor

"what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

"the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it."


Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
You didn't ask him to defend his comment, you asked him to defend your summary of it, and added more descriptive terms to your standard to be met. You literally moved the goal post.
Nope, I have only asked him to defend his statement that BMW's have a reputation for longevity (he may call it whatever he wishes, I will not hold him to my definitions or descriptions of reliability vs durability). No evidence has been posted about BMW's reputation so I cannot have moved the goalposts

Last edited by fcman; 08-07-2023 at 12:17 PM..
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      08-07-2023, 12:11 PM   #3474
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GODAMMNIT you all and you fallacies. THIS IS AMERICA.
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      08-07-2023, 12:28 PM   #3475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcman View Post
No logical fallacy has been committed

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor

"what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

He has offered evidence, you want proof. That's moving the goal post. "Proof" is absent from Hitchens edict.


we can never be certain of anything, and so we must assign value to any claim based on the available evidence, and to dismiss something on the basis that it hasn't been proven beyond all doubt is also fallacious reasoning.



Quote:
Nope, I have only asked him to defend his statement that BMW's have a reputation for longevity (he may call it whatever he wishes, I will not hold him to my definitions or descriptions of reliability vs durability). No evidence has been posted about BMW's reputation so I cannot have moved the goalposts
No, now you are moving the goal posts back Now he can offer whatever evidence he wishes, and there is little you can do about it.
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      08-07-2023, 12:34 PM   #3476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
No, now you are moving the goal posts back Now he can offer whatever evidence he wishes, and there is little you can do about it.
You 2 girls should go see Barbie together and work this shit out. No one gives a fuck about your little cat fight. DM each other for god sake.
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