[_Patch_]

Don's been great. I got the Helix and Jehnerts in the mail from him now (living in New Orleans ). And he set me strait that the helix does take high level inputs. Just don't know why Technic said I sould still recode (I really don't want to do that). The final piece of the puzzle is the wiring. I'd like to have it as PnP as possible, but know I'll have to run new wires to the doors (for the tweeters) and to the floor woofers. I'll keep the stock wires for the doors. That'll be active all the way and the way I believe Don has a tuning file for.
For the wiring, I figure that Technic's harness still would be best as I still need to tap into the HU and stock wires. I also need two sets of speaker connections (for the new wires to the door and floor). Is Technic's the way to go or is it trivial to get a set from an OEM source (Don mentioned they OEMs might be backordered).

Originally Posted by Wongway

? Thought Don was helping you out?

If so, you really don't need much from Technic, because if you've entrusted Don with your car, they don't need the wiring harness, as they're able to do that themselves. Also wouldn't need to wait for Technic to mail it to you. (Not to bash on Technic or anything, honestly... Just, Technic's harness is great for the DIY'er, but Don at Unexpected Creations is far from joe_avg DIY'er)

Regardless, the Match PP82DSP accepts the standard speaker level inputs just fine, since that's what I am using as well.

Not sure how to put your mind at ease, but honestly, you're overworking yourself if Don and Eric are working on your car. It's far from their first rodeo

[Wongway]

Ohhh, I got you mixed up with the other gentleman looking to get work at Don's shop.

Technic's cables will make it easier.

The hard way is tracking down the exact part#'s (I don't recall which is which at this point) that allow you to plug into the existing wiring, with the wire leads and harness, measuring the appropriate cable lengths, etc.

But if you're working with the base audio setup to begin with, you'll probably be in the same boat as myself, where I only used about half of Technic's stereo 2/4 wiring because I had to run all new wires from the Helix for the tweeters as well. (Since the base audio had no tweeters)

[Dannyboy]

Originally Posted by Wongway

Ohhh, I got you mixed up with the other gentleman looking to get work at Don's shop.

Technic's cables will make it easier.

The hard way is tracking down the exact part#'s (I don't recall which is which at this point) that allow you to plug into the existing wiring, with the wire leads and harness, measuring the appropriate cable lengths, etc.

But if you're working with the base audio setup to begin with, you'll probably be in the same boat as myself, where I only used about half of Technic's stereo 2/4 wiring because I had to run all new wires from the Helix for the tweeters as well. (Since the base audio had no tweeters)

Hey, I'm no gentleman!!
Sorry not much more to add to the conversation!

[kaigoss69]

I'm sure Don can provide you with a plug n' play setup.

[_Patch_]

Well Technic has set me strait (isn't learning fun?)
He said "the Stereo system of yours has full range front outputs and high passed rear outputs. Those are the inputs to the PP82DSP. If you do not have any problem with already high passed rear outputs as inputs to the PP82DSP then it will be fine. What I am saying is that there is no summing in the PP82DSP to make rear inputs full range."

So, in my application where i'd like to run it fully active (channels: tweeter, door, floor woofer, rears). Is it better to splice the 2 full range so the DSP gets all 4 inputs as full range or should I just straight plug in the high passed rear outputs in? Reading the Helix manual, it just has a "system connector" that has the inputs, not really mentioning what happens if you input a high passed signal.

[Wongway]

Originally Posted by _Patch_

Well Technic has set me strait (isn't learning fun?)
He said "the Stereo system of yours has full range front outputs and high passed rear outputs. Those are the inputs to the PP82DSP. If you do not have any problem with already high passed rear outputs as inputs to the PP82DSP then it will be fine. What I am saying is that there is no summing in the PP82DSP to make rear inputs full range."...

What Technic isn't telling you is that you don't need to use the rear outputs from the headunit.

All you need is the full range signal from under the seats which is all you're looking to get from his Stereo 2/4 harness.

All it is, is simply the stock BMW harness clips to plug into the full range signal from under the front seats and run that back to the Helix.

Don't bother wasting time/energy/$$ to replace the rear deck speakers. Just leave them playing the already connected high passed signal. You'll never miss it. Spend the extra $$ you would for rear speakers somewhere else. It honestly doesn't give you very much gain for the amount of money spent.

[Technic]

When you input a non-full range signal into the PP82DSP then you will have a non-full range output. There is no summing of any kind for the front or rear outputs (output channels A-D) of the PP82DSP.

If you keep the rear high pass inputs of the PP82DSP for the rear speakers then you will be fine as long as you correct the over-boosted highs signal with the parametric EQ. Or simply split the front outputs of your OEM HU into all 4 PP82DSP inputs and do not use the rear outputs if your car is not equipped with PDC.

What I am saying is that output channels E-H (summing of the front and/or rear inputs) of the PP82DSP cannot use the OEM HU rear output channels as inputs as they are not full range.

Take a look at the PP82DSP tuning manual and you will understand.

Originally Posted by _Patch_

Well Technic has set me strait (isn't learning fun?)
He said "the Stereo system of yours has full range front outputs and high passed rear outputs. Those are the inputs to the PP82DSP. If you do not have any problem with already high passed rear outputs as inputs to the PP82DSP then it will be fine. What I am saying is that there is no summing in the PP82DSP to make rear inputs full range."

So, in my application where i'd like to run it fully active (channels: tweeter, door, floor woofer, rears). Is it better to splice the 2 full range so the DSP gets all 4 inputs as full range or should I just straight plug in the high passed rear outputs in? Reading the Helix manual, it just has a "system connector" that has the inputs, not really mentioning what happens if you input a high passed signal.

[_Patch_]

Ok, wiring time. This is currently blowing my cranium. I have a technic harness and a harness that plugs into the helix pp82dsp. I guess my bigest problem is not knowing the "system connector" pin out for the helix.
Problem 1) there are two sets of 8 colored speaker wires into the helix "system connector" (4 pairs for LF, RF, LR, RR for input) and (4 pairs for LF, RF, LR, RR for output) I don't know which is the input and which is the output set. How do I tell?
Problem 2) in addition to those wires is a yellow and black wire (I assume power and ground). Do I connect the blue amp remote signal from technic's harness to the yellow inputs to the helix? What do I connect the black wire to (technic's harness has no ground from the HU and the helix has a separate dedicated 8awg + and - terminal direct to the car batt)?

My overall plan is to take the base stereo front channel signal, split it and put that signal into the helix inputs. This will put LF from HU into the LF and LR of the helix and RF from HU into the RF and RR of the helix (maintaining stock rear channels run by the HU. Ie no change to rear, stock speakers). Next, from the helix I'll add a wire to the door for tweeters on channel A/B. Use stock cables to the door mids on channel C/D. And add wire to run floor woofers on E/F. G/H will be unused (later sub (half debating using it for stock rears)).

[6spdcoupe]

You have an email Brian.

[_Patch_]

Thanks, Don.

The car is cabled up and ready to test. Hope it works as I basically made my own harness. Does anyone have a setup file for the Helix pp82dsp for a base stereo system? I'd like to check it out and see what it looks like. (I'm running jehnert flatline).

[_Patch_]

It sounds EPIC! Thanks for all the help. Especially Don (6spdcoupe)--you're the man! ctuna, wongway and Technic, you guys also very much rock.

[6spdcoupe]

Originally Posted by _Patch_

It sounds EPIC! Thanks for all the help. Especially Don (6spdcoupe)--you're the man! ctuna, wongway and Technic, you guys also very much rock.

Now This is the type of post I love to see !

[ctuna]

So I wonder if you could expound on the final setup.
Are you playing with the settings and is it totally as awesome
as you expected.

[Wongway]

As you play with it, you'll hopefully realize why a few of us have come to realize adding rear speakers and/or powering them is about useless as a red light in Grand Theft Auto.

[_Patch_]

ctuna, I am still messing with the settings and it is totally as awesome as I expected. I am about to go down to my car and time align it during this method:http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...your-ears.html

Like everyone else, the first time I fired her up, my first impression was ecstatic that my wiring was correct, then despair as the system didn't sound very good. It was only after doing some very basic time alignment and cross-overs did I realize what this thing can do! I sat in the garage just listening and tinkering for over an hour. The one thing I was not expecting was the tone. It's hard to explain, but it sounds like sound coming from an anechoic chamber. Not muffled or tinny, but the opposite--as if you hear every detail (slide of the string of a guitar chord shift, breathing, the little details, etc)--and then almost more impressive is you don't hear it when it stops. It might sound odd, but I have a pretty good hifi in my apartment, but it's a converted warehouse and the brick and high ceilings makes the ringing terrible (I've gotten used to it). In the car, sounds come when they are supposed to and stop when they are supposed to... like the deaf hearing again! lol.

As for my setup overall, I installed a Jehnert flatline system and a Helix pp82dsp (from don). I bought a used Technic harness (sorry technic), but I ended up not using it (for sale BTW). After I studied the harness that came with the helix, I figured it'd be easier to adapt that harness to connect at the woofers and not take out the HU. (I realize technic sells one that does this, but I had my wire cutters itching! also the helix harness has some very well labeled wires). Here is a picture of the harness I made out of the one supplied by the pp82dsp. I hacked the large connectors off the end and used the original wires from the pp82dsp harness to run to the associated speakers. for completeness, this thread was a godsend to see the car side cabling colors: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138949

I didn't take too many pictures as I haven't done anything really that wasn't already well documented. And as it was my first true "gutting" of an old (crappy) system, I wouldn't call it particularly pretty.

Today I hope to get the time alignment done and then get a good eq/freq response curve. My goal is to get it all done today and then drive on it a week to see the next round of tinkering.

Again, thanks for this thread as I would not have been able to do it alone.

[ctuna]

I have often thought my VP system sounds better than the
home system and I have some large klipsch speakers at home. Its like
I can hear Bass distinctly for the first time. And like you said you can
hear everything accurately. So now the quality for your source music
files becomes more important. You can really hear the difference in what
they did in the studios or what they could do between the various
decades.
Didn't Unexpected Creations provide you with some starter adjustments?
Also good job.

[Wongway]

Originally Posted by ctuna

Didn't Unexpected Creations provide you with some starter adjustments?
Also good job.

I know in my case, Unexpected Creations gave me some initial numbers to start with, but to be frank, after I started tweaking things around, they changed quite a bit.

Speaker construction, seating position, install, etc. can all change things a bit, so it's likely even with the starter adjustments, there'll be a lot of tweaking to go from there.

[_Patch_]

Thanks, Unexpected Creations did provide me with some starters... and yes, I did change them a bit. It was great to have an Eq to start with though. I have just (attempted) to time align the speakers via my ears and pink/white noise. Def made a good bit of difference, but I think I can tweak more.
After lunch I'll pull out the REW and flatten the Eq. I think that'll be a good initial hack and call this project officially IOC.

[ctuna]

It looks like time delay based on physical distance would be included
as a starting point.

[6spdcoupe]

Originally Posted by ctuna

It looks like time delay based on physical distance would be included
as a starting point.

Physical distance in what way ? He could be 6'9 or 5'2, does a pimp lean or sits upward, wants center of dash or right in front of him (driver center), etc.

Aside from all of that, speakers need time to break in, when they do there will be needed adjustments accordingly. I don't think you mean to imply that should be preloaded too, do you ?

[ctuna]

I'm not trying to start an argument.
But it looks like things would be pretty much the same
given the same equipment in the same type car.
The things that would vary most would be the personal
preferences and how good your ears are or how worn out
they are. Could 6 inches make that much difference ?

[_Patch_]

Man, my ears are tired. I definitely hit the point of diminishing returns. I have a load that will last a while until my ears heal and the speakers break in. I was attempting to delay the speakers with the post above... it is not easy. I think I bullseyed the tweeters as anything high freq has incredible sound stage. Like it's in my nugget, but I can point to it at the same time. The mid/low is near impossible to hear the interference pattern. Might just go by distance and call it done.

Eqing on the other hand, did not go as well. The flatter I got the response, the worse it seemed to sound. There is plenty of room for improvement, but it's still eons better than what it was. It's all part of the fun.

If you care, here's what I came up with:

Stock eq

Patch eq