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      04-28-2024, 02:38 PM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
Max was 17 when he entered F1 and that was when Ric was at his peak in F1 and was quite good. Yet Max with almost no experience had the same number of wins and 1 less podium. Ham was what? 23? Huge difference in maturity. Let's also not forget that Ham lost to Ros who wasnt that good.
Let's compare that to Max at 23 years, where he, in an inferior car, not only beat Ham, but put up a better season than Ham ever had? His car is not at all dominant if you look at the stats - he is. Stats of 1-2 finsihes, gaps to the rest of the field all place the w05/06 ahead of both the RB18/19 and w11 is right there too.
The simple facts are that in modern F1 all the truly naturally talented drivers excelled the moment they first raced in F1...Senna, Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton.
Verstappen didn't...sure he has learnt to win races in a dominant car but he struggled alongside Ricciardo who is a capable driver (but nothing special) both of them in a Red Bull that was capable of winning races.

It was interesting when Horner threatened to have Alonso or Sainz in to replace Perez...that was an explicit threat to Verstappen that Horner could take away his privileged position as #1 driver with an average team mate....and reverse the roles with Verstappen as the #2 driver.
Around the same time... Verstappens car had a rare mechanical failure...maybe just a coincidence...but how quickly did Jos suddenly stop shooting his mouth off.
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      04-28-2024, 05:44 PM   #310
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      04-28-2024, 09:59 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete View Post
The simple facts are that in modern F1 all the truly naturally talented drivers excelled the moment they first raced in F1...Senna, Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton.
Verstappen didn't...sure he has learnt to win races in a dominant car but he struggled alongside Ricciardo who is a capable driver (but nothing special) both of them in a Red Bull that was capable of winning races.

It was interesting when Horner threatened to have Alonso or Sainz in to replace Perez...that was an explicit threat to Verstappen that Horner could take away his privileged position as #1 driver with an average team mate....and reverse the roles with Verstappen as the #2 driver.
Around the same time... Verstappens car had a rare mechanical failure...maybe just a coincidence...but how quickly did Jos suddenly stop shooting his mouth off.
Max has the most legendary karting career ever seen and every great out there said he was a century level talent. Again, Nikki Lauda said this while working for MB but never said anything even half that good about Ham? Why? It is wasn't for massive hp advantage MB enjore for 8 years Ham would only have 1 cheat WDC under his belt. Imagine if Ham didnt have a 'Max cant drive here because I'm afraid of losing to him' clause?
How in the world did Ham lose to a less than avg driver in Ros?

None of those other guys were even on the F1 radar at 17 like Max, and there's a lot of reasons why.

Sorry but there is a lot of delusion if you think Max isnt a much more special talent than anyone in F1. I can guarantee no one would have been able to learn as quickly or do what he has at this age in what equates to a solid car but no one that has any dominant trait other than the driver. You don't set records like he has without massive amounts of talent and a level of consistency F1 has never seen before from any of the greats before him in Clark, Prost, Fangio, Mansel, Senna, or Sch. He is the single best since Sch by a country mile.

Last edited by HeelToeShift; 04-28-2024 at 10:34 PM..
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      04-29-2024, 01:30 AM   #312
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Greene King IPA is an easy drinking ale, best drunk cool but not ice cold like lagers.
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      04-30-2024, 06:36 AM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
Max has the most legendary karting career ever seen and every great out there said he was a century level talent. Again, Nikki Lauda said this while working for MB but never said anything even half that good about Ham? Why? It is wasn't for massive hp advantage MB enjore for 8 years Ham would only have 1 cheat WDC under his belt. Imagine if Ham didnt have a 'Max cant drive here because I'm afraid of losing to him' clause?
How in the world did Ham lose to a less than avg driver in Ros?

None of those other guys were even on the F1 radar at 17 like Max, and there's a lot of reasons why.

Sorry but there is a lot of delusion if you think Max isnt a much more special talent than anyone in F1. I can guarantee no one would have been able to learn as quickly or do what he has at this age in what equates to a solid car but no one that has any dominant trait other than the driver. You don't set records like he has without massive amounts of talent and a level of consistency F1 has never seen before from any of the greats before him in Clark, Prost, Fangio, Mansel, Senna, or Sch. He is the single best since Sch by a country mile.
No one is denying that Hamilton won most of his championships because of a car performance advantage.

Did you watch the season where Rosberg won the championship? I'm guessing not, otherwise you wouldn't come out with such nonsense.

LOL you seriously believe the joke that Hamilton had a "no Verstappen" clause...brilliant.
When Verstappen was blabbing on about how he could win in the Mercedes Wolff offered him a test drive session to see how he would fare against Hamilton.
Verstappen of course bottled it, never replied and kept quiet after that.

If anyone has a clause like that in his contract it would be Verstappen...why else is Perez still there...its not because he is fast, he isn't...its because he is no threat to Verstappen taking wins.
If Verstappen was as good as you believe he would welcome any of the top drivers to join him at Red Bull to show he really is the best...but Verstappen at least understands that he would likely be shown up as decent but not special.

It is true, put Verstappen in a dominant car, set up to his preferences and with a second rate team mate he can indeed win races.
However up against Ricciardo he couldn't match him.

I don't think 3 years to get the hang of not over driving and crashing everywhere is someone who learns quickly...quite the opposite.

I do hope he ends up at Mercedes alongside Russell on equal terms then we will get a better idea of where Verstappen is in the hierarchy of drivers.
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      04-30-2024, 07:21 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete View Post
No one is denying that Hamilton won most of his championships because of a car performance advantage.

Did you watch the season where Rosberg won the championship? I'm guessing not, otherwise you wouldn't come out with such nonsense.

LOL you seriously believe the joke that Hamilton had a "no Verstappen" clause...brilliant.
When Verstappen was blabbing on about how he could win in the Mercedes Wolff offered him a test drive session to see how he would fare against Hamilton.
Verstappen of course bottled it, never replied and kept quiet after that.

If anyone has a clause like that in his contract it would be Verstappen...why else is Perez still there...its not because he is fast, he isn't...its because he is no threat to Verstappen taking wins.
If Verstappen was as good as you believe he would welcome any of the top drivers to join him at Red Bull to show he really is the best...but Verstappen at least understands that he would likely be shown up as decent but not special.

It is true, put Verstappen in a dominant car, set up to his preferences and with a second rate team mate he can indeed win races.
However up against Ricciardo he couldn't match him.

I don't think 3 years to get the hang of not over driving and crashing everywhere is someone who learns quickly...quite the opposite.

I do hope he ends up at Mercedes alongside Russell on equal terms then we will get a better idea of where Verstappen is in the hierarchy of drivers.
Max has no ego, especially not a fragile one like Ham. Why do you think Ham wanted to keep Bot? He knew Bot was a bottom of the grid driver who just listened to team orders. It's funny you keep mentioning crashes, when early in his career Ham crashed as much as Max, and Ham has been at the top of the contact/crash list in the last 4 years - crashing in situations only a rookie would, not to mention the dirty driving he's always been known for. Again, none of these guys had the skills at 17 to be in F1 and the maturity level at that age vs men who are in their early to mid 20s is massive. I remember being a college freshman, playing D1 lacrosse, and how much different the 5th years guys who were 22/23 years old seemed. Ham has never been a great wheel to wheel racer, whereas Max has had many battles, and clean ones in the past 4 years. Even Alo said Ham only knows how to drive when he is up front...so true!
Sorry, but Ham has proven without a material advantage his driving is average at best. His MB in 2022/3 was the second best car on the grid and he could barely do anything with it.
Max has also said he doesnt care who races next to him because they will end up behind him - at least go by facts since he's never said anything like that. The opposite it true though - people are afraid to go to RB.
Yes, I've seen 2016, and fact of the matter is, he lost to Ros who is not anyone I'd call above an average driver at best. Max would never lose to someone like that. Fact is, MB drivers were always so close because Ham just could never find that much daylight between him and average at best drivers. That and the fact that he's having a hard time beating mr crash/flop Rus tells you all you need to know.

Last edited by HeelToeShift; 04-30-2024 at 07:57 AM..
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      04-30-2024, 07:43 AM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete View Post
The simple facts are that in modern F1 all the truly naturally talented drivers excelled the moment they first raced in F1...Senna, Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton.
Verstappen didn't...sure he has learnt to win races in a dominant car but he struggled alongside Ricciardo who is a capable driver (but nothing special) both of them in a Red Bull that was capable of winning races.

It was interesting when Horner threatened to have Alonso or Sainz in to replace Perez...that was an explicit threat to Verstappen that Horner could take away his privileged position as #1 driver with an average team mate....and reverse the roles with Verstappen as the #2 driver.
Around the same time... Verstappens car had a rare mechanical failure...maybe just a coincidence...but how quickly did Jos suddenly stop shooting his mouth off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete View Post
No one is denying that Hamilton won most of his championships because of a car performance advantage.

Did you watch the season where Rosberg won the championship? I'm guessing not, otherwise you wouldn't come out with such nonsense.

LOL you seriously believe the joke that Hamilton had a "no Verstappen" clause...brilliant.
When Verstappen was blabbing on about how he could win in the Mercedes Wolff offered him a test drive session to see how he would fare against Hamilton.
Verstappen of course bottled it, never replied and kept quiet after that.

If anyone has a clause like that in his contract it would be Verstappen...why else is Perez still there...its not because he is fast, he isn't...its because he is no threat to Verstappen taking wins.
If Verstappen was as good as you believe he would welcome any of the top drivers to join him at Red Bull to show he really is the best...but Verstappen at least understands that he would likely be shown up as decent but not special.

It is true, put Verstappen in a dominant car, set up to his preferences and with a second rate team mate he can indeed win races.
However up against Ricciardo he couldn't match him.

I don't think 3 years to get the hang of not over driving and crashing everywhere is someone who learns quickly...quite the opposite.

I do hope he ends up at Mercedes alongside Russell on equal terms then we will get a better idea of where Verstappen is in the hierarchy of drivers.
Are you talking about Jos Verstappen ?

People evolve: during the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games Michael Phelps (15) came close to the podium only in the 200m butterfly (5th). He would dominate the next four Olympic Games, finishing as the most decorated athlete at every one. Phelps didn't win any of his 28 Olympic medals at the age of 18.

Anno 2024, Max Verstappen is an F1 war machine. And he will keep improving his grandmaster racing skills during the next seasons.
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      04-30-2024, 02:55 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
Yes, I've seen 2016, and fact of the matter is, he lost to Ros who is not anyone I'd call above an average driver at best.
The mechanical failure that Hamilton had while leading late in the 2016 season would have seen Hamilton take the championship. Anyone who knows anything about F1 knows that.

As I repeatedly state...Hamilton in his rookie season bested the x2 world champion Alonso.
Who else in the history of modern F1 has competed so strongly in their rookie year against a current F1 champion as their team mate.

How on earth do you manage to characterise Hamilton as average in the context of that performance.

On crashes...this from 2021:
The German Autobild stated:
The Dutchman has already crashed out 28 times in his career so far and that is more often than Hamilton in his entire Formula 1 career. The Briton crashed out 26 times.

Thats with more than twice the number of years in F1.
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      04-30-2024, 04:04 PM   #317
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Related to Alonso being blamed for causing a collision with Sainz at Turn 9 during the the Sprint event.

10 second time penalty added to Alonso's time + 3 penalty points (total of 6 for the 12 month period).

Aston Martin disputes the decision:

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      04-30-2024, 04:14 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete View Post
The mechanical failure that Hamilton had while leading late in the 2016 season would have seen Hamilton take the championship. Anyone who knows anything about F1 knows that.

As I repeatedly state...Hamilton in his rookie season bested the x2 world champion Alonso.
Who else in the history of modern F1 has competed so strongly in their rookie year against a current F1 champion as their team mate.

How on earth do you manage to characterise Hamilton as average in the context of that performance.

On crashes...this from 2021:
The German Autobild stated:
The Dutchman has already crashed out 28 times in his career so far and that is more often than Hamilton in his entire Formula 1 career. The Briton crashed out 26 times.

Thats with more than twice the number of years in F1.
Welcome to 2024.

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      04-30-2024, 05:29 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete View Post
The mechanical failure that Hamilton had while leading late in the 2016 season would have seen Hamilton take the championship. Anyone who knows anything about F1 knows that.

As I repeatedly state...Hamilton in his rookie season bested the x2 world champion Alonso.
Who else in the history of modern F1 has competed so strongly in their rookie year against a current F1 champion as their team mate.

How on earth do you manage to characterise Hamilton as average in the context of that performance.

On crashes...this from 2021:
The German Autobild stated:
The Dutchman has already crashed out 28 times in his career so far and that is more often than Hamilton in his entire Formula 1 career. The Briton crashed out 26 times.

Thats with more than twice the number of years in F1.
Well, when Ham was getting favored and the upgrades and Alo wasn’t it makes sense. Again, Max in the same car would have beaten either of them. And neither were good enough to enter at 17 so it’s not valid to try to compare when neither would ever have a shot at F1 so young. Max jumped in right away and everyone said he was supremely impressive. If you compare Max to either Alo or Ham at the same age which is more relevant he owns them.
DNFs can happen without a crash, but Ham has had his fair share and again, since 2021 he is at the top when it comes to contact with other drivers while Max is one of the least.
In modern F1, how any get a car capable of winning WDC cars right away let alone one they just won 2x in a row? Jacques nearly won his first year in F1 and we know he wasn’t a top 10 driver in history. His first season was more impressive. I also ask again, how many people go right into a WDC winning car? Basically none, and the fact that Ham only won due to a cheating scandal tells you all you need to know. Where did he go after that? He disappeared until he got an F1 car in a field of F4 cars. Helen Keller could have won in that MB for all those years.
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      04-30-2024, 06:14 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete View Post
As I repeatedly state...Hamilton in his rookie season bested the x2 world champion Alonso.
Who else in the history of modern F1 has competed so strongly in their rookie year against a current F1 champion as their team mate.
He didn't get the best of Kimi

Those gravel traps are a bitch aren't they?

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      04-30-2024, 07:15 PM   #321
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      05-01-2024, 02:11 AM   #322
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Absolutely on par with the Prost/Senna clash season of 1989 except for the more vociferous comments back then which would be penalised as unsporting now by FIA, in particular one from Senna calling Prost a coward.
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      05-02-2024, 03:19 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post

Anno 2024, Max Verstappen is an F1 war machine. And he will keep improving his grandmaster racing skills during the next seasons.
I'm not disputing that Verstappen is performing at a high level now he has a dominant car.
Its the absurd, yet comically entertaining attempts by some to frame Hamilton (and by extension Alonso) as an average middle of the pack racer...seemingly because by discrediting Hamilton they believe it enhances Verstappen.
True they are not F1 fans but simply fans of a particular driver because of his nationality.
But it is a shame that this type of fandom precludes the idea that there are several drivers currently in F1 who could perform at the same level given a dominant car.
If it makes any difference I don't even particularly like Hamilton I'm just impressed by his abilities.
In the same way that you didn't have to like Usain Bolt to be mesmerised by his running.

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