[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by TemjinX2

i already said toyota had a influence on minor tweaks...maybe slightly more then BMW normally would've done on coming out with a newer variant of a exisiting engine between the standard variant and higher out put variants.

BMW isn't going to make any major design changes since its going to cost too much money.

BMW just designed the b58 to be able to use a the b57 same aluminum box so they can save money...so they can just make one block instead of making two different ones, the rest is just marketing spin.

BMW already made closed deck blocks for their M cars for years, its just the first time you seen in a mass produced petrol engine. Main reason was to save cost and the side effect is a stronger lower block but then it goes back into the debate of open deck versus close deck setups.

I'm not sure what we are arguing about. My original post was in response to someone other than you. I suggested the power reliability capability of the B58 was due to it being a diesel engine block. Based on the compression ratios, a closed deck block design is common practice with diesel engines, unique for NA gasoline engines, and sensible for forced induction gasoline engines. The B57 and B58 share the same engine block, which was my point.

You keep saying Toyota made "minor tweaks" to the engine (design). Specifically, what are you talking about? What are the tweaks?

[mecheng77]

Name one technology the Japanese introduced on cars. I can only think of a few: 4WS on the Prelude and 240SX, it often failed. The only other technology I can think of is VTEC, which Honda did a great job on but they did not invent the technology it was Alfa Romeo but they did a good job to commercialize, and perfect it it. Toyota rarely innovates; when they need someone to build a high performance or sophisticated engine they usually turn to Yamaha. The list of German and US innovations is pages long.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by mecheng77

Name one technology the Japanese introduced on cars. I can only think of a few: 4WS on the Prelude and 240SX, it often failed. The only other technology I can think of is VTEC, which Honda did a great job on but they did not invent the technology it was Alfa Romeo but they did a good job to commercialize, and perfect it it. Toyota rarely innovates; when they need someone to build a high performance or sophisticated engine they usually turn to Yamaha. The list of German and US innovations is pages long.

Toyota is often credited for the invention of the parallel hybrid introduced as the Prius. However, TRW actually invented the parallel hybrid drivetrain in the early 1970's and patented it. TRW tried to sell the technology to the Big 3 American auto companies at that time, but none decided it was a marketable concept.

[mecheng77]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Toyota is often credited for the invention of the parallel hybrid introduced as the Prius. However, TRW actually invented the parallel hybrid drivetrain in the early 1970's and patented it. TRW tried to sell the technology to the Big 3 American auto companies at that time, but none decided it was a marketable concept.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Toyota is often credited for the invention of the parallel hybrid introduced as the Prius. However, TRW actually invented the parallel hybrid drivetrain in the early 1970's and patented it. TRW tried to sell the technology to the Big 3 American auto companies at that time, but none decided it was a marketable concept.

Porsche built the first hybrid but Toyota did a good job commercializing it and making it affordable and reliable

[John 070]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

Apparently, you're really bad at reading. Quoting the very PDFs you linked:







My favorite thing, however (other than the fact that you are so very wrong), is the graphic of Legos used to depict how modular these engines are.

I remember piecing out the exhaust for a N54, and retail it came to $6,300. The N55 cut that in half. The B58 was in the $1,000's. For pete's sake at least on the F30 340i, it had a muffler turned sideways like a Pontiac G6. That's cost cutting. Yet the price went way up. that's margin for BMW.

[Gamb1t]

Originally Posted by TemjinX2

The b58 was designed to be a replacement for the N55. the supra/z4 was up in the air in terms of development...it only happened since toyota provided the economys of scale to make financial sense to make it.

The b58 engine was BMW's off the shelf solution since they already used it in the 340i/440i's.

The courtship started as early as 2012. B58 may be designed but BMW has to ship all components to Toyota for quality testing down to rivets and bolts. There was an interesting interview article of the two diverse company culture that needed to be overcome first. Do you seriously think Toyota would compromise on it's foundational priority for quality? And on a flagship legendary sports car based on the 2jz? The B58 better have a similar propensity for power mods and reliability that supra owners & followers expect.

[tlow98]

Originally Posted by Gamb1t

The courtship started as early as 2012. B58 may be designed but BMW has to ship all components to Toyota for quality testing down to rivets and bolts. There was an interesting interview article of the two diverse company culture that needed to be overcome first. Do you seriously think Toyota would compromise on it's foundational priority for quality? And on a flagship legendary sports car based on the 2jz? The B58 better have a similar propensity for power mods and reliability that supra owners & followers expect.

I think many companies would do whatever they want if the margins are good enough. If Toyota were truly concerned they'd design and build their own car. This is a niche car that will sell at in minuscule amounts compared to the rest of Toyota's line. If this were a product or drivetrain that Toyota intended to spread throughout a larger portion of its lineup I'd buy the "toyota quality" tag line. nah - it will be fast, tuneable and put out big numbers reliably. The DSC and electronic sensors... They will be measured in BMW years (short ones, ahha).

Nuts and bolts? They're all mostly the same, and the great majority of the BMW componentry comes from better suppliers and is made of better materials - Toyota doesn't zinc coat every Corolla or Camry coming off the line.

Buy whichever one you like the looks of best - My vote goes to Toyota there!

[Gamb1t]

Originally Posted by tlow98

I think many companies would do whatever they want if the margins are good enough. If Toyota were truly concerned they'd design and build their own car. This is a niche car that will sell at in minuscule amounts compared to the rest of Toyota's line. If this were a product or drivetrain that Toyota intended to spread throughout a larger portion of its lineup I'd buy the "toyota quality" tag line. nah - it will be fast, tuneable and put out big numbers reliably. The DSC and electronic sensors... They will be measured in BMW years (short ones, ahha).

Nuts and bolts? They're all mostly the same, and the great majority of the BMW componentry comes from better suppliers and is made of better materials - Toyota doesn't zinc coat every Corolla or Camry coming off the line.

Buy whichever one you like the looks of best - My vote goes to Toyota there!

Was reading somewhere that b58 may find a home in some Lexus engine bay. Those comments that the g20 looks like Lexus? Makes one wonder huh!

[Schmitz]

Microsoft invented the tablet first but apple got all the credit. It really says something about being ahead of your time...

The Germans were using synthetic fuel and oil during ww2 (1939-1945 - don't know why I feel the need to put the dates but I figure it'll be news to some) because they had no access to fossil fuels.

Submarines probably used the first hybrid drive. Diesel and electric motors. Diesel charged the batteries and then the batteries ran the electrics so they could run underwater. This was at least as early as 1914.

My point is that nothing we're doing nowadays is really unique or new.

[M40i4me]

Other than the valve cover and gasket and oil filter housing gasket at 172,000 miles my E90 is by far the most reliable car I have ever owned. I have the original water pump, all the original coils, and it still looks, rides, and runs like new. In fact we are trading in my wife’s 2014 CX5 with 85,000 miles because it’s in worse shape! Its seats are creaking and worn out, rattles galore, failed door looks and window switches, interior plastics literally falling off! Hood bounces and mirrors shake even after the TSB fix. A real tin can. I know the redesign is much better, but the seats are still very uncomfortable and the entrainment system is still crap.

[whiskybrian]

I know this is an old post, but here in Europe BMWs (and Mercedes) are the most popular cars for fleets of all kinds, both corporate and government, due to their reliability and dependability.

My e92 has now 310k km, it never broke down. It had sensors replaced as three did go bad. Total cost of repairs is like 200 euro. One major thing we’re something was replaced is the clutch and dual mass but that was maintenance not repairs, depending on the driver only, I won’t count brakes, oil etc. All parts are original, suspension, everything in the engine too, besides the belts in the front which were like a hundred.
Including oil and brakes and preventative maintenance at the total of over 300k km is about 2k euro.
Same with a 2016 5 series and an X5. 5 series only had the timing chain replaced at 440k km, no other repairs.
All cars had about 300 HP
It’s not getting worse.

[autoAER]

all of my N52 cars have been substantially more reliable than my M54 cars. I love the E46 more than any other BMW chassis, but they were absolutely plagued with issues. Build quality dramatically improved in the E9x models.

[Hoody007]

Originally Posted by autoAER

all of my N52 cars have been substantially more reliable than my M54 cars. I love the E46 more than any other BMW chassis, but they were absolutely plagued with issues. Build quality dramatically improved in the E9x models.

My N54 has been infinitely more reliable than my old E46 (’04 330Ci).

The E90 is built much better - the headliner is not sagging, the cooling system is (almost) all original, save for the upper radiator hose (swelled from a leaking OFHG). Original water pump @140K miles.

I’ve never been left stranded due to a mechanical issue (tires nonwithstanding, but that can happen to any car). Only unscheduled maintenance have been 2 fuel injectors @ 140K and a failed alternator @ 100K (pretty sure it was killed by a leaking OFHG).

Suspension is all brand new, though the only parts which actually failed were the control arms, which cracked with age. Ended up replacing shocks and a wheel bearing when I nailed a pothole - but again, not really the car’s fault.

[e90yyc]

I love my car because it’s taught me so much.. When I bought it, all I had ever done was oil changes and brakes. Now just a few years later I’ve done a manual swap on jackstands, replaced control arms, struts, steering rack (xDrive…), etc.

As much as I enjoyed the relative peace of mind that came with driving a new car with a warranty, it felt like I had very little connection to the car. Maybe that’s not true for people who can afford to mod their brand-new cars, but for me it certainly was.

It’s not that I don’t value reliability—it’s just that were it not for the need to fix the things that have broken, I never would have learned what I know today. It’s frustrating at times, but I’ve never been left stranded.

[bim_artemis]

Originally Posted by e90yyc

I love my car because it’s taught me so much.. When I bought it, all I had ever done was oil changes and brakes. Now just a few years later I’ve done a manual swap on jackstands, replaced control arms, struts, steering rack (xDrive…), etc.

As much as I enjoyed the relative peace of mind that came with driving a new car with a warranty, it felt like I had very little connection to the car. Maybe that’s not true for people who can afford to mod their brand-new cars, but for me it certainly was.

It’s not that I don’t value reliability—it’s just that were it not for the need to fix the things that have broken, I never would have learned what I know today. It’s frustrating at times, but I’ve never been left stranded.

At what mileage did you change the steering rack ? I had a e90 Xdrive also and int started making noises at 250k kilometres.

[e90yyc]

Originally Posted by bim_artemis

At what mileage did you change the steering rack ? I had a e90 Xdrive also and int started making noises at 250k kilometres.

Replaced it around 320k kms, but I don’t think it was actually bad…

Originally I had a noisy PS pump. I replaced it with a used unit and it got much better, but I was still hearing a groaning noise that responded to steering input and that completely went away when I took off the accessory belt. I went ahead and swapped in a brand new pump. Still the same… I figured it HAD to be related to the rack. I had already replaced the alternator and pulleys, and had fitted a shorter belt that allowed me to take the AC compressor out of the system. So that left the crank pulley, the new AC pulley, new idler, and the new PS pump.

Well, turns out even after replacing the rack the noise is still there. I don’t think there was ever anything wrong with my rack to begin with. No leaking, but I thought surely the noise was coming from it.

[autoAER]

Originally Posted by Hoody007

My N54 has been infinitely more reliable than my old E46 (’04 330Ci).

The E90 is built much better - the headliner is not sagging, the cooling system is (almost) all original, save for the upper radiator hose (swelled from a leaking OFHG). Original water pump @140K miles.

I’ve never been left stranded due to a mechanical issue (tires nonwithstanding, but that can happen to any car). Only unscheduled maintenance have been 2 fuel injectors @ 140K and a failed alternator @ 100K (pretty sure it was killed by a leaking OFHG).

Suspension is all brand new, though the only parts which actually failed were the control arms, which cracked with age. Ended up replacing shocks and a wheel bearing when I nailed a pothole - but again, not really the car’s fault.

Exactly! My 1st E46 was a 325xi- torn CV boots, saggy headliner, failed seat motors, 2 expansion tanks, CCV, easily ripped seats, failed sunroof motor, failed hazard button, etc. The only E46 I've ever had without issues like this was the most base model 325i manual- no power seats, no fan clutch, nothing really to fail besides the random E46 quality issues- and it still had issues such as expansion tank failure, ICV problems, and a failed intake runner. I love the E46 chassis, its my favorite of all BMW's in both design and driving characteristics, but there were glaring quality issues. NONE of my E9x cars have had quality issues like that outside of age related issues. I have never even been stranded outside of an alternator failure on my E92 commuter (188k miles on original alternator!) and a starter failure on the same car at 190k miles.