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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis > Camber or toe?



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      05-28-2022, 10:31 PM   #23
335i54n
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I see a lot of inner wear (front inner shoulder pretty rounded), it just seems that you guys are more gentle and do less hard driving than i.
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      05-28-2022, 10:40 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by 335i54n View Post
I see a lot of inner wear (front inner shoulder pretty rounded), it just seems that you guys are more gentle and do less hard driving than i.
Agreed - donít do too much aggressive cornering esp. not on street only
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      05-29-2022, 02:09 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335i54n View Post
you need more psi (48/32 is my start, check tire load specs 1st) and a front swaybar upgrade (if u dont already), even that on stock width fronts i was getting little too much rollover wear. the 255 in my pic got noticeable better wear with more contact patch and really help front sway work better.
Is that 48psi f, 32psi r? That sounds really soft in the rear...

I'm not seeing any rollover wear, I think. Front sway is stock, but I have BMWP front springs (~190lb/in), and an e93 m3 rear sway.
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      05-29-2022, 02:12 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
Hereís my tires compared. Tires on top are PS4S with 7,000 miles on them and 4 track days. Never rotated them either. I run 35 psi on the street on all 4 tires and drop them 5 psi for track.

The top left is front and the top right is the rear, below each tire is a brand new just mounted on the same spec rim as whatís above it. Inner treads are all to the right side in their pictures.



So thatís 7000 miles on front -3.5 camber and 1/16 toe in on the top left and 7000 miles on rear -2.5 camber 1/8Ē toe in on the top right.

Tires are all 255/35r18 and the front rims are 18x9 and the rear rims are 18x10. Since it was mentioned Iíll say Iím on Yellow Performance Springs and E92M3 front and rear swaybars.
Not bad I think! Track time would surely be helping even out the wear, yeah.
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      05-29-2022, 02:15 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoooter_j View Post
Nice even wear - track is definitely helping keep the outer shoulders in check to be in line with the inners.

Hereís my even crappier pics - will try and get a daytime pic with wheels turned instead soon. Running 40psi all around and am on B12 Prokit, stock sways. 245/35/19.

Not sure why the second pic is rotated upside down, but first pic is driverís front, second pic is passenger front. Third pic is the day I got them and drove home from the tire shop. Approx 6k miles on these since IIRC.
Wear looks really similar to mine, though I can't remember the total mileage on my tyres now.
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      05-29-2022, 02:17 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by 335i54n View Post
I see a lot of inner wear (front inner shoulder pretty rounded), it just seems that you guys are more gentle and do less hard driving than i.
Definitely don't get to corner hard very much, and don't have the funds to be doing track days
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      05-29-2022, 06:46 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
Definitely don't get to corner hard very much, and don't have the funds to be doing track days
Looks like we might need to corner a bit more

For what its worth, just re-read feuerís post and his comment on offset - my winter tires have less pronounced inner wear. I run 225/40/18 all around with 34 offset in front. Summer rims are 32 offset in front. Seems like skinnier and slightly more ET helps, but not ideal for a summer setup.
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      05-29-2022, 09:17 AM   #30
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Turn ur wheel to full lock to look at the inside, u can see how round the very inside is while the rest of the tire looks new. Yeah 32 start, i go up or down depending on how it wears but my lead foot, if i run too much then the middle gets detroyed. All i want is the best wear possible for how i drive, handling is what it is.

Last edited by 335i54n; 05-29-2022 at 09:30 AM..
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      05-29-2022, 12:40 PM   #31
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Hmmm, would like to hear the theory/thought process behind why additional toe past zero would provide less tire wear. Also, why do you guys run more negative than stock camber if you don't corner hard regularly or track the car?
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      05-29-2022, 01:23 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw335ie90 View Post
Hmmm, would like to hear the theory/thought process behind why additional toe past zero would provide less tire wear. Also, why do you guys run more negative than stock camber if you don't corner hard regularly or track the car?
Everything has a limit of course, but since more toe past zero would tend to wear the outside of the tyre, it stands to reason that if inner edge wear is excessive it will be reduced in favour of wearing the outer edge. Happens because the tyre skews under lateral load, and lifts whichever edge up away from the road (reduces the pressure on that side).

I don't corner hard very often, but the feeling when I do is worth it. The car feels so much better poised and grip better balanced. My setup is hardly extreme (-1.8deg), compared with the stock rear camber. This is why I'm willing to compromise the toe setting in order to achieve reasonable tyre wear.
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      05-29-2022, 01:27 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335i54n View Post
Turn ur wheel to full lock to look at the inside, u can see how round the very inside is while the rest of the tire looks new. Yeah 32 start, i go up or down depending on how it wears but my lead foot, if i run too much then the middle gets detroyed. All i want is the best wear possible for how i drive, handling is what it is.
How would a stiffer sway reduce that though? That wear has predominantly happened during motorway miles, not cornering.

Fair point on pressures for wear...I'm not willing to compromise my setup *that* much. Maxing out the tyre pressures according to the sticker is my sort of limit. For comfort as well as handling.
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      05-29-2022, 03:02 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
I don't corner hard very often, but the feeling when I do is worth it. The car feels so much better poised and grip better balanced.
This as well - moving to a 245/265 setup like OEM M3 tire sizes makes it feel more neutral to boot!
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      05-29-2022, 04:51 PM   #35
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I really don't feel the need for more tyre - I feel there's plenty grip with what I've got. If anything I think I could fairly easily go down to a 225 on the rear to match the front. Might start to want an LSD more for that though. As it is the speed limit is most often the limiting factor in corner speed, and I don't tend to give it much welly exiting slow corners
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      05-31-2022, 05:25 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feuer View Post
On street I run front -2.5 camber 0.0 toe rear -2.0 camber 0.5 toe out and only get rear inner wear. Tires are 235/40-18 and 255/35-18. For track I push front camber to -4.0 donít readjust toe a all. Read untouched. 255/35-18 with 275/35-18 Tire wear in rear is better with the wider tires. Wear and how far feel varies on tire size and wheel offset too, to some extent.
Feuer,
I like that you aren't getting inner wear on the fronts.
Curious: Why are you running toe OUT on the rear?
And is your 0.5 toe-out measured in mm or degrees?

FWIW, I just had an alignment today
F -3.0 camber, zero toe
R -2.0 camber, 0.16 degrees toe-in, total toe 0.32 degrees
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      05-31-2022, 10:28 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 72GMC View Post
Feuer,
I like that you aren't getting inner wear on the fronts.
Curious: Why are you running toe OUT on the rear?
And is your 0.5 toe-out measured in mm or degrees?

FWIW, I just had an alignment today
F -3.0 camber, zero toe
R -2.0 camber, 0.16 degrees toe-in, total toe 0.32 degrees
Sorry. Toe in rear and degrees.
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      05-31-2022, 10:34 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
I really don't feel the need for more tyre - I feel there's plenty grip with what I've got. If anything I think I could fairly easily go down to a 225 on the rear to match the front. Might start to want an LSD more for that though. As it is the speed limit is most often the limiting factor in corner speed, and I don't tend to give it much welly exiting slow corners
Tire size although a factor doesn’t directly translate into more or less traction. Tire tread wear index (rubber compound) does. 225 inch with 120 tw will offer better traction and fast wear relative to 325 inch 560 tw that is pretty much plastic, won’t offer much traction and will wear long.
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      06-01-2022, 01:23 AM   #39
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Funny though, my 320tw PS4 have more grip wet and dry than some 240tw tyres I used to have. Dunlops I think they were. Tyre companies are allowed to understate tw rating, but they are not allowed to overstate it.

Would you say there is a difference in feel/feedback from narrower Vs wider tyres?

Also, I love the notion of 325" tyres
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      06-01-2022, 04:55 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feuer View Post
Sorry. Toe in rear and degrees.
Thanks for clarifying. I don't think anyone recommends toe out in the rear, or even zero toe.
There's still room to reduce your rear toe, which should ease up on the inside edges of the rear tires. (Unless you've tried that and found the car was too loose)
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      06-01-2022, 05:00 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 72GMC View Post
Thanks for clarifying. I don't think anyone recommends toe out in the rear, or even zero toe.
There's still room to reduce your rear toe, which should ease up on the inside edges of the rear tires. (Unless you've tried that and found the car was too loose)
When you say reduce, do you mean more toe in? Or out? Because more toe in would help even out the tyre wear, *and* stabilise the handling.
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      06-01-2022, 09:56 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
When you say reduce, do you mean more toe in? Or out? Because more toe in would help even out the tyre wear, *and* stabilise the handling.
No it will not help with tire wear. Anything away from 0.0 whether is toe in or toe out will result in increase tire wear. Regardless whether is front or rear.
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      06-02-2022, 01:11 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feuer View Post
No it will not help with tire wear. Anything away from 0.0 whether is toe in or toe out will result in increase tire wear. Regardless whether is front or rear.
That's not what I said
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      06-02-2022, 06:22 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
That's not what I said
Yes, with different words. You said more toe in will even out wear. As if they donít have enough toe in. I contrary you and said no it wonít. Only adjustment towards 0.0 toe will help with even out wear.
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