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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Tracking, Autocrossing, Dragstrip, Driving Techniques > Track Review: Procede V1.47, Stoptech BBK, others... (long)



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      12-06-2007, 04:56 AM   #23
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      12-06-2007, 06:52 AM   #24
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Interesting discussion, but now I'm obsessed about getting back on track again!

Dogfish Head - Raison D'Etre (my prefered beer of the moment)
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      12-06-2007, 07:31 AM   #25
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Interesting discussion, but now I'm obsessed about getting back on track again!

Dogfish Head - Raison D'Etre (my prefered beer of the moment)
I prefer beer over no beer

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      12-06-2007, 07:37 AM   #26
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I've got Redhook Winterhook and Sierra Nevada Celebration in the kegerator currently. Always willing to share.
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      12-06-2007, 06:12 PM   #27
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Hegemony, great report and thanks for taking the time. left has it right, Sierra is good livin'.
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      12-07-2007, 12:05 PM   #28
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Hegemony - are you sure you were running 1:44 at RA? Not saying you are wrong...Reason I ask is because the M3 in T2 (on Hoosier R6 and top notch Koni 2812 ($5k suspension) is running a 1:42...and these drivers are SCCA National Level Drivers.
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      12-07-2007, 12:56 PM   #29
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Hegemony - are you sure you were running 1:44 at RA? Not saying you are wrong...Reason I ask is because the M3 in T2 (on Hoosier R6 and top notch Koni 2812 ($5k suspension) is running a 1:42...and these drivers are SCCA National Level Drivers.
I was not running 1:44.x. The NASA TT record for TTB is 1:44.x. I think I can get to that level with a few more days at RA and maybe a set of Hoosiers.

My best times, as loosely timed by others, have been in the 1:48-1:49 range and all of those have been when I have a passenger. I've also had at least one person who ran a 1:50.00 say he can't keep up with me.

I don't put much stock in any of those and won't consider myself as having an official best time until I run with a trackmate on what I consider to be a clean lap. I do have a trackmate timed 1:52.x from Sunday under my belt on cold tires (needed more pressure in the early session) and definitely not at my best. I would say that I was running faster later in the Sunday with passengers, but I had had to give the trackmate back so those laps weren't timed.

I'm going to have to move up in groups in order to get my better times. From mid-day Sunday, once I got my bearings, no one was passing me in B group. I would generally get 1 clean lap per session and then it was traffic city, and there were only 19 people signed up for B group that day. It's kinda going to suck at NASA HPDE's and the other events for a while because they're all going to look at my seat time and categorize me in lower groups where I'm going to be stuck in traffic. I don't even bother with BMWCCA events. I know a guy who showed up there with his NASA race license and they made him run in Novice because he had never been out with BMWCCA before.

I still have stuff to learn. I definitely need to run an event in the wet so I can get my reaction times down for corrections. I'd say that's my weakest point right now.
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      12-07-2007, 01:15 PM   #30
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My mistake...I didn't ready correctly. In any case, a 1:48 is a good time at RA. I bet the extra power can really help along the back and front sections. I've raced down there a few dozen times and ran a few track days down there so I have some time on the track. Also, the fastest ITS BMW's run a 1:42 (these car have less weight, more rigid, awesome suspension, a few engine mods, and very good driver).
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      12-07-2007, 01:40 PM   #31
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Good to know. Right now I think what's keeping me from getting lower times is me and not the car. That may turn out to be an incorrect assumption on my part, but I figure if a guy in a stock GT3 can get ~1:36's on hoosiers, then I can get within 10 seconds of that with all of my mods. He is a pro driver in Europe, so it may be harder than I'm making it out to be. But I'm going to try.
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      12-07-2007, 03:26 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Hegemony View Post
I'm going to have to move up in groups in order to get my better times. From mid-day Sunday, once I got my bearings, no one was passing me in B group.
IMO A group isn't much faster than B group. The only difference is A group people (usually) pay better attention to their mirrors and give quicker point-bys.

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I know a guy who showed up there with his NASA race license and they made him run in Novice because he had never been out with BMWCCA before.
I call BS, there's more to that story than that guy is letting on. If he filled out his form correctly and a CCA chapter wasn't familiar with him, they would check his references/track history to confirm. No way would they knowingly put him in Novice group.
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      12-07-2007, 03:41 PM   #33
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I just know what I was told, and I've heard similar stories about Peachtree chapter from other people. I indirectly know the VP of the chapter, so I should probably just ask him about it. I just haven't bothered.

Pic's CD came in. Fiancee emailed me this one. I'll post more later. This is coming out of 5. Apparently I didn't use the whole track on that lap.
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      12-07-2007, 03:42 PM   #34
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Yeah man, I'd reconsider the BMWCCA. Based on my experiences with BMWCCA, NASA and Porsche Club, the BMW club has the best instruction, by far.

NASA, in particular, is a joke in terms of instruction.

The A/B group BMW club drivers are damn good. I can't always say the same for the NASA 3/4 drivers.
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      12-07-2007, 03:51 PM   #35
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Hey...my friend is the chief instructor for NASA Group 3 or 4 in your area....I am gonna tell on you. :P

I only taught once for BMW at Sears Point...back in 2001...but I plan to try to teach for them again...if they will take my sorry ass.
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      12-07-2007, 03:59 PM   #36
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If you think NASA 3/4 drivers are bad, run in the 1/2 groups once

I'd prefer to ride with an instructor and/or watch them before I let them instruct me at this point. Again, I'm not claiming to know everything, but I learned more last weekend solo than I did at my first instructed event and I think it stuck better because I had to figure it out for myself. Honestly, I'd really like to go to an event, run solo til I felt confident, get someone I trusted and knew to be a good driver to ride and give me a few pointers, then kick them out of the car and work on that part by myself. After a while, I think having someone in the passenger seat going, "brake here, turn in, roll on, etc." can become a crutch.
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      12-07-2007, 05:35 PM   #37
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I was teaching for NASA for about 4-5 events..but then I gave back the secret decoder ring and called it a day.
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      12-07-2007, 06:06 PM   #38
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I was teaching for NASA for about 4-5 events..but then I gave back the secret decoder ring and called it a day.
Did they get upset because you were making the other "instructors" look bad?

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Hey...my friend is the chief instructor for NASA Group 3 or 4 in your area....I am gonna tell on you. :P
Doh! Well they don't have instruction in Group4 anyways. It's a weekend open track day, for all intensive purposes. The bad part is that people get very very minimal instruction in Group1 and that's all folks. You have people in Group 3-4 because they have fast cars, but aren't necessarily good drivers. So of course they pull on everyone in the straights but baby-step around the corners.

With BMW, you ALWAYS have an instructor in the car - even if you have years of autocross experience, etc. As you go to the more advanced groups, they reduce the talking and give you fine-tuned pointers (eg - "try going a tadbit later on the next lap, the way your car spins like poo, it might help.")
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      12-09-2007, 01:46 PM   #39
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Thought I'd chime in here because I'm the one who gave Jeremy the braking advice.

#1 I told him to be smooth on to the brakes and work up to 10/10th's, not slam on the brakes, it is not fruitful from many standpoints, and I have done it before which is why I could tell him with certainty the smooth braking technique is better.

a) most brake pads dont like sudden braking, in fact pagid pads state directly that such braking should be avoided.

b) if your brakes are more powerful than your tires, which is almost always, you will overpower the traction ability of the tires and cause ABS to kick in, and counting on ABS is not the quickest way to stop, in non abs race cars, they have to use this method because if they dont, they will lock up.

c) If you go as deep as possible before braking all you do is stand the car on it's nose and the ability of the car to be controllable at turn in decreases, and if you are off by even a little you can overshoot the turn. My advice for anyone short of semi-pro is to be smooth on the brakes and learn to always have control of the vehicle, not to push too hard.



#2 Jeremy's car is perfectly capable of taking the TTB road atlanta lap record of 1:44. My advice to him is to take his time learning the cars limits before pushing for lap records, he's still a noob, and I'm not all that experienced myself, but I know with more practice he could get that record because after riding with him I'm positive I could get in his car and best that time on a good tire.
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      12-09-2007, 07:12 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavychevy View Post
Thought I'd chime in here because I'm the one who gave Jeremy the braking advice.

#1 I told him to be smooth on to the brakes and work up to 10/10th's, not slam on the brakes, it is not fruitful from many standpoints, and I have done it before which is why I could tell him with certainty the smooth braking technique is better.

a) most brake pads dont like sudden braking, in fact pagid pads state directly that such braking should be avoided.

b) if your brakes are more powerful than your tires, which is almost always, you will overpower the traction ability of the tires and cause ABS to kick in, and counting on ABS is not the quickest way to stop, in non abs race cars, they have to use this method because if they dont, they will lock up.

c) If you go as deep as possible before braking all you do is stand the car on it's nose and the ability of the car to be controllable at turn in decreases, and if you are off by even a little you can overshoot the turn. My advice for anyone short of semi-pro is to be smooth on the brakes and learn to always have control of the vehicle, not to push too hard.



#2 Jeremy's car is perfectly capable of taking the TTB road atlanta lap record of 1:44. My advice to him is to take his time learning the cars limits before pushing for lap records, he's still a noob, and I'm not all that experienced myself, but I know with more practice he could get that record because after riding with him I'm positive I could get in his car and best that time on a good tire.

thanks for piping in Chevy...I am an instructor too... :-)
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      12-09-2007, 08:06 PM   #41
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thanks for piping in Chevy...I am an instructor too... :-)
I'm actually not an instuctor (yet), a friend of mine told me that he was told this by an instructor. It made great sense to me so I tried it in a session of my own and it worked wonders and I can actually go in deeper now and use gradual stopping rather than standing on the brakes and struggling to get the car gathered before turn-in. This does not mean light on the brakes, it's just a modulation of applying the pressure, kind of like slamming the gas out of corners, and feathering the throttle.
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      12-09-2007, 08:30 PM   #42
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Heavy, is there a car forum that you don't have an ID on?

The advice worked. I was much faster the last two sessions after you rode with me. It really just boiled down to being smoother on and smoother off the brakes. The starting point was only slightly early, and I really just needed some educated input. This was my first event on the new brakes, and they had only been on the car for about 12 days before I showed up at the track that day.

It looks like I'm going to have to go to the BMWCCA events if I want to get the seat time at RA that I want in 08, so we'll see where they place me.
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      12-09-2007, 09:34 PM   #43
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Heavy, is there a car forum that you don't have an ID on?

The advice worked. I was much faster the last two sessions after you rode with me. It really just boiled down to being smoother on and smoother off the brakes. The starting point was only slightly early, and I really just needed some educated input. This was my first event on the new brakes, and they had only been on the car for about 12 days before I showed up at the track that day.

It looks like I'm going to have to go to the BMWCCA events if I want to get the seat time at RA that I want in 08, so we'll see where they place me.
There arent many, I love so many types of cars, I'm all over the place.

I think it also helped with you riding with me, my car wasnt stressed at all while running what are some pretty fast times for street cars, and with a passenger to boot. I was actually surprised to see that time as I turned it down a notch even to keep from overworking the brakes with the extra weight like I always do when I have a passenger.

Instruction is one thing, but demonstration may be even better IMO, because it's partial muscle memory.
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      12-11-2007, 07:55 PM   #44
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Looks like I'll be at the PCA event in January and NASA in March.

Just finished changing out the harness on my Procede V2, so I'll have it going forward.
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