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Can sludge engine cause shut offs, pulley-type squeaking?
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11-23-2018, 02:42 PM | #1 |
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Can sludge engine cause shut offs, pulley-type squeaking?
Hello All,
I have a 2008 328xi, purchase new, one owner. I am really trying to hold on this car for a while, because it is paid off. Or at least, until I finish college next year. It is making this intermittent squeaking and randomly shuts off after the noise starts. But it cranks right back up and don't know when it will do it again. Pulling P0012 code, intake camshaft timing for bank 1 is retarded. I had these same symptoms in August, had the venos solenoid, tensioner/drive belt fixed, oil change and had no more problems until now. In August I took the car to my dad’s mechanic, who pulled codes for the venous solenoid. He changed the solenoid, but told me to take the shop I usually use to have an oil change. The car stopped shutting down, but the noise returned a day later. Took it to autozone and they pulled the P0012 code. My mechanic said the tensioner/drive belt needed to be replaced and that I needed a new valve cover gasket. I couldn’t afford the valve cover gasket, so I told him to do the tensioner and oil change. The car ran find after that. No noise, no shutting off until now, 3 months later. But, what I found strange was that the mechanic gave this disclaimer that the valve cover gasket also causes the car to shut off and tat squeaking type noise, so my symptoms may return if I don't get that fixed. This sounded odd then and even more so now. Just called my mechanic and asked why I was having the same problems if they fixed it? He said tensioner and camshaft were different issues and that they did not address the camshaft. When I asked way not, he said because I told him to do the tensioner. Of course I did, because he lead me to believe that was what was causing the symptom and P0012 code. Whatever the case, $1100 later, I should not be having the same problem. He then said that his file notes say that I had/have sludge is in the engine and that my symptoms are because the oil is clogging, or is affecting, the solenoids and causing camshaft issues. Mind you, he never told me this before. He said the sludge cannot be removed and that he would not advise me to put money into fixing the camshaft. Instead, he suggested that I come get another oil change and change my oil more regularly until I can get another car. After some online research, I have concluded that it was the solenoid repair by the first mechanic and the oil change by my mechanic, that resolved the symptoms in August and that it was never the tensioner. (Please correct me if I’m wrong) In that case, I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can answer. 1. Could the sludge and camshaft issue cause these symptoms (shut offs, noise)? 2. Can a tensioner issue mimic a camshaft issue? (Trying to figure out if this was an honest mistake or intentional to make me pay for a repair I did not need) 2. Would an engine flush help at this point? Will having more regular oil changes until I can get another car really help Thank you for any info provided. |
11-23-2018, 10:54 PM | #3 |
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Get an opinion from any Indy Shop that specializes in BMWs.
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11-24-2018, 07:23 AM | #4 |
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Honestly, you should probably sell the car. If you can’t do the diagnostic work yourself, throwing money at a car that is expensive to maintain and not worth much is a bad idea.
Especially given that it’s been poorly maintained. (You only get sludge if the car is poorly maintained.)
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11-25-2018, 09:28 AM | #5 |
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First thing you should do is get a bimmergeeks cable and laptop, or other code reader that will give you access to all of the diagnostic information your car can provide through the BMW specific codes and stored associated info. The obd2 codes only give about 1/10 of the info.
Then come back. Or, as previously mentioned, bring the car to a BMW specific Indy. |
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11-25-2018, 05:20 PM | #6 |
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if you're getting vanos errors there's only a few possibilities.
1. not enough oil pressure to the VANOS. THis is bad. It will eventually damage the cams/cam ledges. 2. the cam ledges are already wasted and bleeding oil pressure. This is real bad, and expensive. 3. the vanos solenoids are actually defective and need replaced. to address point 1, there are VANOS "filters" that may need cleaned on the passenger side of the block. Two of them. They remove with a torx bit. You also need to pull and clean the vanos solenoids themselves to make sure that the oil passages are clean. point 2 is not something that anyone that's not an advanced DIY should attempt. It requires you to pull the cams and work on the head directly. point 3 is what you'll find out after you pull the filters and solenoids and clean them. If after cleaning things still don't work properly either the solenoids are bad, or the cam ledges are worn. Try swapping the exahust solenoid for the intake, see if the code moves to the exhaust cam. If it does, bad solenoid. If it doesn't, something mechanical on the intake may be amiss. |
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11-26-2018, 01:50 AM | #7 |
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OP, I think your mechanic had been honest with you but there had been miscommunication/misunderstanding.
Your car has/had multiple issues looks like. The squeaking noise can be very well due to the crank case ventilation valve that is integrated onto your valve cover on your car. The easiest way to diagnose this, if you ever catch it making this sound when you are parked, open the hood and try to open up the engine oil fil cap while the engine is running. If it is very difficult to open it due to a lot of vacuum and noise goes away after you open the oil fill, the noise is caused by the crank case valve and being part of the valve cover requires valve cover replacement. From what you wrote it looks like you have been having oil leak from your valve cover too. You may also be having oil leak from your oil filter housing gasket. If oil had been getting onto your serpentine belt, it can cause it to slip off and then gets sucked into the engine behind the crank pulley and you will be looking at a expensive engine fix. The tensioner pulley also deflects by age that adds into the belt to slip off. Your mechanic may have seen this and replaced the tensioner. The tensioner pulley bearings may also have been noisy already. This is a good thing the mechanic did, especially if your belt was oily and/or the tensioner pulley had started to deflect. The code P0012 code, as already have been written by other replies, can be the vanos selonoids, worn out cam ledge and seals. But it can be oil pressure loss due to the oil filter insert missing or has broken off piece. Easy to check too, open the oil filter housing cap where the filter is, check for the insert. Also your Dad's mechanic may have just cleaned the vanos solenoid(s), not replaced them. It has been reported on this site that the cleaning of the selonoids are temporariy fix, problem comes back again. See this TIS for more info: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...32779-8218.pdf If I were you, initial thing I would do would be to clean the vanos solenoids, see if it will get rid of the code and shut off issue. If so, buy new solenoids and replace. As to sludge, your dad's mechanic may have seen dirty vanos solenoid and concluded oil sludge issue. To some level he maybe right, but not necessarily. This vanos solenoid issue is so common. At the same time make sure you use BMW LL-01 speced engine oil especially if you are following the computer given oil change intervals. You may have been already doing this, just wanted to mention in case. |
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11-26-2018, 07:59 AM | #8 |
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Hello Nsjames and Phasep,
Thank you both so much for your responses. You have provide me with some good insight and helped me to understand how these parts work together. AND brought back a little more trust in my mechanic. I am in no way skilled to do any of this type of work, so I will be taking it back to the shop with my fingers crossed that nothing too major or costly is wrong. I really appreciate your help! |
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11-26-2018, 08:04 AM | #9 |
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Oh, I did not notice the other responses until now, thanks everyone!
Bushwa, I didn’t know that anyone can buy a code reader, I would like to have one. Do you know where would buy one? Is the cable and laptop the same thing? |
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11-26-2018, 08:25 AM | #10 | |
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11-26-2018, 10:42 AM | #11 |
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First: Thank you for your service.
How many miles are on the car? I'm leaning towards the Vanos solenoids/filters as well, since that is a great place to start and seems odd that the problem would go away with an oil change. Although your car is right on the borderline for the updated cylinder head which takes care of the camshaft ledge issue, I'm thinking that if the problem was there it would continue regardless of the oil being changed or not. It's very possible the mechanic only cleaned these solenoids, which is a temporary fix. They need to be replaced with OEM sensors. Do you have any tools or access to them? The OEM BMW solenoids aren't the cheapest part in the world, but they are right on the front of the engine and each one is held in with one 10mm bolt. See the below video as a reference:
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11-27-2018, 09:22 AM | #12 |
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I'd like to chime in as well. If you changed the engine oil on a yearly basis, or by the CBS schedule (i.e. when the car notified you) and used quality oil that hopefully meets BMW LL-01 specifications, and used a proper-fitting oil filter, I highly doubt the engine has sludge in it. If you can post what maintenance has been performed and who did the maintenance it will better help us understand the possible condition of your car.
The discussion of camshaft ledges really would be a concern if the engine oil maintenance was severely under performed (long oil change intervals with an incorrect filter and incorrect oil). One other possible cause of the code can be the camshaft position sensors. They are near the VANOS solenoids. The P0012 code can be caused by a poorly operating VANOS solenoid or cam position sensor. The diagnosis is to swap the solenoids to see if the code follows the solenoid to its new position (on the other camshaft). If the code stays put then the next part that is suspect is the camshaft position sensor. The position sensors feedback camshaft timing information for the engine computer to control the fuel combustion process. A last resort is to evaluate the oil check valves that feed pressurized engine oil to the VANOS system. The check valves have small screens which can get clogged up, but it is rare, and again usually caused by substandard engine lubrication maintenance. Lastly, the P0012 code you've stated is an OBD2 trouble code for intake camshaft timing which means the mechanic didn't use a BMW scan tool to read the code, which means he's probably not a trained BMW mechanic. Someone suggested taking the car to a certified BMW mechanic, which is very good advice, and I strongly suggest you do that. Have the car scanned with a BMW scan tool, which will more precisely tell the technician what camshaft timing component is failing. I hope you get it straightened out. You have a great and reliable car that can last you a very long time. Mine has well over 300,000 miles on it and runs almost perfectly good as the day I bought it new over 12 years ago. Lastly, if your mechanic charged you $1,100 for an oil change, and serpentine belt and tensioner, he charged you way too much. And independent BMW mechanic should charge half that. Find a good independent BMW certified mechanic. Last edited by Efthreeoh; 11-27-2018 at 09:02 PM.. |
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11-27-2018, 03:06 PM | #13 | |
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hit bimmer geeks website. the easy button is to buy a slightly more expensive wireless adapter and pay bimmer geeks for the protools app on an android device. that gives you all the power of the bmw tools in your hand and very convenient. option one will cost you like $40. option two will cost you like $130. worth every penny if you intend on keeping the car. |
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