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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > N52 engine build :)



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      01-12-2016, 11:18 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjahl View Post
Hass

two questions:

1. Why not start with a N52N block. It was my understanding the rods and crankshafts were upgraded from the first generation N52.

2. How do you do a compression check on a motor with VVL? Forcing the throttle open is not going to help.
1. Cost.. I got this engine cheap. Also later engines may have solid camshafts, and im not a fan of the plastic covers.

Are you sure the internals are different? I havent cross referenced the parts to see if they even changed. Newer doesnt always mean upgraded - sometimes it just means cheaper. Given the complete lack of general experience with N52 internals, I'm inclined to think that is mostly hearsay.

2. Actuallly it doesnt matter much. I should be able to lock open the valves, but typically open or closed after a few rotations compression will flatline. Remember I'm turning it by hand - I'm mostly looking for relative differences between cylinders which is more important than the actual pressure values. What I'm really looking for is the health of the engine - if a cylinder bore is significantly scored, that changes the calculus of how i continue this build.
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      01-13-2016, 12:18 AM   #46
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yep! I've had the idea for a long time, but I'm glad you guys came along and proved that it could work, lol. I like trying new things for sure, but at some point the wife is going to wonder why my E30 is sitting up on jackstands in the garage and doesn't run anymore.
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      01-13-2016, 12:53 AM   #47
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Oh, since you mentioned hacking up a single stage manifold, I have two kicking around, since I've done the 3IM on two separate cars now. If you find yourself needing another for whatever, shoot me a PM.

The engines definitely have a different feel. My '06 had the N52, and my '09 has the N52N, and honestly I liked the '06 a lot more. For one, I only ever had lifter tick on the '06 once, and it was freezing ass cold in VT when it happened. The '09 gets noisy any time you don't beat on it.
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      01-13-2016, 03:23 AM   #48
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Yeah i might need one for further prototypes. Maybe we can find a good use for the crummy single stage lol.

Theres boxes of parts waiting for me at home and the engine is on a stand... I hope to make some progress when i get back. :-)
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      01-13-2016, 11:50 AM   #49
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Very interesting
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      01-14-2016, 12:41 AM   #50
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Just verified - they did change the part # for the rods, but what changes were actually made are unknown. It could be a simpler/cheaper casting process; I really doubt they significantly re-engineered them. it's not like rod failures are common.

The cranks however, are all identical - from early through 2015 (who knew BMW produced the N52 for so long??). part #11210392993.

I have briefly considered the 89.6mm N54/N55/S55 crank, but it uses an 8 bolt flywheel and I'm putting this into an older chassis, so being able to use a 6 bolt flywheel would be a lot easier. Also the bump in displacement is tiny - 0.05cc's.

I will be looking into VAC's N54 coated rod bearings - N54/N55/S55 are the same as the N52, so I don't see why they wouldn't work. The question is, do I trust N52 rods at 8k rpm? It's not a DD, but throwing a rod would not be good..
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      01-14-2016, 12:48 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
Just verified - they did change the part # for the rods, but what changes were actually made are unknown. It could be a simpler/cheaper casting process; I really doubt they significantly re-engineered them. it's not like rod failures are common.

The cranks however, are all identical - from early through 2015 (who knew BMW produced the N52 for so long??). part #11210392993.

I have briefly considered the 89.6mm N54/N55/S55 crank, but it uses an 8 bolt flywheel and I'm putting this into an older chassis, so being able to use a 6 bolt flywheel would be a lot easier. Also the bump in displacement is tiny - 0.05cc's.

I will be looking into VAC's N54 coated rod bearings - N54/N55/S55 are the same as the N52, so I don't see why they wouldn't work. The question is, do I trust N52 rods at 8k rpm? It's not a DD, but throwing a rod would not be good..
So you're planning on keeping bearing clearances stock rather than opening them up for race bearings? Was thinking this would be a good idea as long as the oil was adjusted to accommodate it. Maybe a bad idea for a daily or nearly daily, I guess.
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      01-14-2016, 12:52 AM   #52
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they are already larger diameter than most small BMW 6s, so I don't see any point really. the VAC coated rod bearings are pretty inexpensive (just a little more than OEM), seems like a simple solution, along with some baffling.
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      01-14-2016, 12:56 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
they are already larger diameter than most small BMW 6s, so I don't see any point really. the VAC coated rod bearings are pretty inexpensive (just a little more than OEM), seems like a simple solution, along with some baffling.
Sounds like a plan.

Thanks for doing this!
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      01-14-2016, 08:01 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
Just verified - they did change the part # for the rods, but what changes were actually made are unknown. It could be a simpler/cheaper casting process; I really doubt they significantly re-engineered them. it's not like rod failures are common.

The cranks however, are all identical - from early through 2015 (who knew BMW produced the N52 for so long??). part #11210392993.

I have briefly considered the 89.6mm N54/N55/S55 crank, but it uses an 8 bolt flywheel and I'm putting this into an older chassis, so being able to use a 6 bolt flywheel would be a lot easier. Also the bump in displacement is tiny - 0.05cc's.

I will be looking into VAC's N54 coated rod bearings - N54/N55/S55 are the same as the N52, so I don't see why they wouldn't work. The question is, do I trust N52 rods at 8k rpm? It's not a DD, but throwing a rod would not be good..

Ya, I looked at RealOEM again and it shows different part numbers for the block, rods and pistons on the individual parts break down pages but when you look at the cross references pages, they don't always agree. Sorry, I should have rechecked my references before posting.
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      01-14-2016, 05:27 PM   #55
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nice
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      01-15-2016, 02:17 PM   #56
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Glad to see you picked up a motor. Been looking forward to this build. I heard those 6,000 RPM AWD launches with the M20 were legendary. Now i wanna see what the N52 can do.
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      01-15-2016, 04:58 PM   #57
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Picked up some cleaning supplies today, i wanna scrub it down before taking it apart. Of course its freezing out and i have a nasty cold..

I did get a full gasket and seal kit while i was away - i went OEM on the head gasket, and OE on the rest. Sometimes with BMW headgaskets you don't really know what you're getting otherwise. Sort of surprised the gasket is MLS.
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      01-16-2016, 03:17 PM   #58
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Hass,

We know you are not feeling well but have you checked the physical vanos adjustment limits on the cams yet?
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      01-16-2016, 03:43 PM   #59
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No, i have to pop the valve cover for that and i want to scrub the outside clean first. I made a weak attempt at it yesterday - scraped like 2lbs of crud off the timiing cover, lol, but wasn't feeling good enough to do much more.
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      01-16-2016, 05:54 PM   #60
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Hurry. Hurry!!
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      01-21-2016, 01:32 AM   #61
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i always wanted an separate n52 to experiment around on

but anyway here is what id do:

I would lock out the vanos at full tilt and use ITBs, itll be easier to control. e46 m3 ITBs will work with an adapter plate. i would add dry shot nitrous ports in the ITB adapter plate since youd need the adaptor/spacer there anyway. The heads are already pretty much ported and polished already. then do custom headers for fun (or buy headers), get rid of power steering pump and AC and youll pick up another 20hp. get rid of coil packs and ignition and run an MSD ignition
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      01-21-2016, 01:44 AM   #62
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actually now that i think about it, maybe id use individual motorcycle carbs and carburate the engine lol, since its going in an e30 you wont have emissions issues and it will be easy and make only a few HP less. take the build old school and it will be much easier and make good power if done right. plus it would be cool as hell and very unique, a carbed n52 making 3xx hp?! pretty cool in my book
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      01-21-2016, 02:10 AM   #63
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Yeah.. no. that would actually cost more than what I want to do, for a worse solution. There's nothing to "control" with the Valvetronic - the DME handles all of that automatically. E46 M3 ITBs work poorly with a cable throttle too, the linkage was designed to be driven by an electric motor. also in reality the E46 M3 throttles are probably too large for the N52. I'm looking at using 48mm trumpets which will support more than what my power goals are.

Removing the A/C & PS pump isn't going to add 20hp, but I'm not using the A/C so I will have a little less weight. Actually one thing I need to solve is what serpentine belt to use since it will need to be much shorter without the compressor.

thanks for the suggestions though.
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      01-21-2016, 08:33 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowbmw View Post
i always wanted an separate n52 to experiment around on

but anyway here is what id do:

I would lock out the vanos at full tilt and use ITBs, itll be easier to control. e46 m3 ITBs will work with an adapter plate. i would add dry shot nitrous ports in the ITB adapter plate since youd need the adaptor/spacer there anyway. The heads are already pretty much ported and polished already. then do custom headers for fun (or buy headers), get rid of power steering pump and AC and youll pick up another 20hp. get rid of coil packs and ignition and run an MSD ignition
If you wanted to use ITBs you'd want to lock Valvetronic open, not Vanos. It wouldn't be easier to control though, not sure why you'd think that. And a magnesium outer block doesn't strike me a good choice for NOS given it's barely strong enough for a small amount of FI boost.

The heads aren't polished, no idea where you got that from and custom headers means wasting money to reinvent the wheel. Good luck with the whole manual steering thing without the boost, use an electric pump for steering, it's what race cars use. MSD ignition? Why complicate things and make it nearly impossible to use the DME. Ever price a Motec solution? About at expensive as a new 320i, give or take.

It's actually a lot simpler than this to up the N52's game.
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      01-21-2016, 11:37 AM   #65
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yeah, I grew up with cars that were carbureted. no thanks. lol.

half the appeal of the N52 to me is the valvetronic system itself. it's just freaking cool. Plus not needing an actual throttle, I'm pretty sure my custom trumpet intake will cost a lot less than a used 3 stage conversion and new DISA valves.

still haven't been able to touch the engine, during the week is basically impossible.. Tomorrow I should be able to clean it some more though, and maybe pop that valve cover finally!
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      01-21-2016, 02:56 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
If you wanted to use ITBs you'd want to lock Valvetronic open, not Vanos. It wouldn't be easier to control though, not sure why you'd think that. And a magnesium outer block doesn't strike me a good choice for NOS given it's barely strong enough for a small amount of FI boost.

The heads aren't polished, no idea where you got that from and custom headers means wasting money to reinvent the wheel. Good luck with the whole manual steering thing without the boost, use an electric pump for steering, it's what race cars use. MSD ignition? Why complicate things and make it nearly impossible to use the DME. Ever price a Motec solution? About at expensive as a new 320i, give or take.

It's actually a lot simpler than this to up the N52's game.
-sorry i mean valvetronic.

-and i meant the head is already pretty damn good as is, its pretty close to optimized already...

-to me custom headers would be a fun project and since the space contraints on an e30 swap would be different, the n52 headers you can buy might not work without bashing tubes, and who wants to do that?...

-manual steering works fine on a light car... that used to be THE ONLY form of steering and people managed to live to tell the tale

-power steering and AC rob more power than people think, look up some tests done with them removed... 15-25 hp average

-people on here have safely run 75 wet shots of nitrous... it was able to handle it safely and numerous people did it

-the wiring and tuning is gonna be a bitch using the stock DME... not sure what his budget is but its going to definitely be a bitch
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