[Limegrntaln]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

And THIS is why electric cars have momentum.

It's called "math"

Shawn

Of course. Im spending the car payment in what fuel costs. I cant control fuel prices, but I can control how much it costs me to fully charge a car. Either free Supercharging, or Free at my house.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

And THIS is why electric cars have momentum.

It's called "math"

Shawn

Math for someone with a detached home and solar panels, living in Sunny California. Yep totally applicable to every situations possible. Not like there are people in Condos, old areas of old cities, renters, cold weather places etc

Yep “math”…

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Limegrntaln

I'll have something electric in the next 6-12 months. I never add up cost of fuel, but, I feel like I fueled up a little more than I normally do, and I actually added up fuel cost for the month of April. $744.08. It just doesn't make sense for me to keep putting premium, which is shit 91 octane, in California, and paying $5.29 a gallon, just to commute to work, and take a few trips to Reno.

My solar panels would probably make up for most of what home charging costs me. I don't pay electricity bills. I generally have a bill credit, even in the summer, and I only have 12 panels on 2,700 sqft, 5 bed. I have a 250kw Supercharger 4 miles from my house. 3 years of free supercharging would pay for more than half of the car, in 4-5 years. Not to mention $7,500 federal and $2,000 California tax credit.

How many homes on the planet have solar panels? How many people can afford them even with government grants? How many people can afford an EV as their only car? How many people can afford a new car as their only car. How much will it cost to double capacity and the grid to accommodate wholesale adaptation of EV's, and how much will electircy cost when that happens?

[Limegrntaln]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

How many homes on the planet have solar panels? How many people can afford them even with government grants? How many people can afford an EV as their only car? How many people can afford a new car as their only car. How much will it cost to double capacity and the grid to accommodate wholesale adaptation of EV's, and how much will electircy cost when that happens?

You’re pissing into the wind. It’s been mandatory, in California, for every new house “built” since 2018 to have solar panels installed at time of closing.

I paid $17,741 for my 12 panels, which covers the complete cost of my electric for my house, and pays for most of my gas bill. At the time, there was a 30% tax credit now, it’s down to 26%. Which means when I got the tax credit back, (if you’re receiving a refund, which I always have a refund) that made my panel balance $12,369. Which I just ended up writing a check to pay the balance.

But, say you can’t do that? The government subsidized a 1.9% payment plan for 15 years. At $17,741 my monthly payment was $87 a month. At $12,369, if I hadn’t just paid the panels off, the bill would have been in the $60 range. $60 a month for a fixed rate electric bill for 15 years? Where are you going to beat that?

How many people can afford an EV only car? Well, a model 3 long range is $47,240, today. $7,500 federal tax credit, and $2,000 California. That makes the car $38,000ish. 15,000 miles a year for a standard car at $250 a month for fuel.

A Model 3 long range lease for 15k miles a year, is $573 a month. Minus $250 a month for fuel, and you’re at $323.

As of 2023, according to BankRate the “average” car payment is $716 or $41,445.

And how much is electricity going to cost? If you own a house, with a decent solar panel array, it’s paying for itself. Home electricity and battery charging. In California, with the amount of houses with Solar, it’s not doing anything except helping relieve the grid. Electricity can’t be any cheaper than free.

My power company also gives you up to $400 for a home charger install and $2,000 if your circuit breaker panel can’t handle the power and you need to add a sub panel or upgrade your existing electrical panel.

My house is only a few years old and was built with a dummy panel on the side wall for charger install. That’s also been a given for newer home builds, here.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Limegrntaln

You’re pissing into the wind. It’s been mandatory, in California, for every new house “built” since 2018 to have solar panels installed at time of closing.

I paid $17,741 for my 12 panels, which covers the complete cost of my electric for my house, and pays for most of my gas bill. At the time, there was a 30% tax credit now, it’s down to 26%. Which means when I got the tax credit back, (if you’re receiving a refund, which I always have a refund) that made my panel balance $12,369. Which I just ended up writing a check to pay the balance.

But, say you can’t do that? The government subsidized a 1.9% payment plan for 15 years. At $17,741 my monthly payment was $87 a month. At $12,369, if I hadn’t just paid the panels off, the bill would have been in the $60 range. $60 a month for a fixed rate electric bill for 15 years? Where are you going to beat that?

How many people can afford an EV only car? Well, a model 3 long range is $47,240, today. $7,500 federal tax credit, and $2,000 California. That makes the car $38,000ish. 15,000 miles a year for a standard car at $250 a month for fuel.

A Model 3 long range lease for 15k miles a year, is $573 a month. Minus $250 a month for fuel, and you’re at $323.

As of 2023, according to BankRate the “average” car payment is $716 or $41,445.

And how much is electricity going to cost? If you own a house, with a decent solar panel array, it’s paying for itself. Home electricity and battery charging. In California, with the amount of houses with Solar, it’s not doing anything except helping relieve the grid. Electricity can’t be any cheaper than free.

My power company also gives you up to $400 for a home charger install and $2,000 if your circuit breaker panel can’t handle the power and you need to add a sub panel or upgrade your existing electrical panel.

My house is only a few years old and was built with a dummy panel on the side wall for charger install. That’s also been a given for newer home builds, here.

Good for California and good for you....but in case you weren't aware, Cali isn't the centre of the universe. How many homes in California were built before the mandated solar panels, and how often will California ask people to not charge their EV's to avoid rolling brown/black outs? The vast majority of people aren't as fortunate as you are with your solar panels paid for by the rest of the tax paying public. The reality is we are a very very long way from having sufficient capacity and grid to have everyone driving an EV. We are a very very long way from being able to environmentally friendly mine all the components to build EV's for everyone, or to put solar panels on everyones roof. We are a pretty environmentally progressive country and the government subsidies for solar are quite small, we live in a northern climate like a good chunk of the continental US and solar panels aren't likely to provide enough energy in the short daylight winter months to power everyones homes.....even if they could afford it.

[Limegrntaln]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

Good for California and good for you....but in case you weren't aware, Cali isn't the centre of the universe. How many homes in California were built before the mandated solar panels, and how often will California ask people to not charge their EV's to avoid rolling brown/black outs? The vast majority of people aren't as fortunate as you are with your solar panels paid for by the rest of the tax paying public. The reality is we are a very very long way from having sufficient capacity and grid to have everyone driving an EV. We are a very very long way from being able to environmentally friendly mine all the components to build EV's for everyone, or to put solar panels on everyones roof. We are a pretty environmentally progressive country and the government subsidies for solar are quite small, we live in a northern climate like a good chunk of the continental US and solar panels aren't likely to provide enough energy in the short daylight winter months to power everyones homes.....even if they could afford it.

True, and I wasn't even paying attention to you living in Canada. Everything is expensive in Canada. And the on road costs don't help. We are definitely extremely far from being able to do everything you said. Elon also said in the last earnings meeting that Tesla uses almost no Cobalt, so the mining that a lot of people are talking about, out there, most of it isn't mined for Tesla.

I wouldn't even be getting one to save the planet. I just don't like paying California prices for fuel. Dipshit isn't fixing the roads, he's giving money away to some programs people cant sustain. While the roads turn into trash.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Limegrntaln

True, and I wasn't even paying attention to you living in Canada. Everything is expensive in Canada. And the on road costs don't help. We are definitely extremely far from being able to do everything you said. Elon also said in the last earnings meeting that Tesla uses almost no Cobalt, so the mining that a lot of people are talking about, out there, most of it isn't mined for Tesla.

I wouldn't even be getting one to save the planet. I just don't like paying California prices for fuel. Dipshit isn't fixing the roads, he's giving money away to some programs people cant sustain. While the roads turn into trash.

And when everyone is driving EV, where is the fuel excise tax going to come from the pay for road maintenance? Guess...

[Limegrntaln]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

And when everyone is driving EV, where is the fuel excise tax going to come from the pay for road maintenance? Guess...

I already know where it's going to come from. Dip is already talking about charging people by the mile for road tax.

https://reformcalifornia.org/campaig...he-mileage-tax

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by kyriian

Math for someone with a detached home and solar panels, living in Sunny California. Yep totally applicable to every situations possible. Not like there are people in Condos, old areas of old cities, renters, cold weather places etc

Yep “math”…

Jump to conclusions much?

Every car isn't for every person, and for certain electrics aren't for everybody. But there's a lot of people for whom "the math" makes the car make sense.

When a five year evaluation shows a Tesla Model 3 performance to be cheaper in those five years than a Toyota Camry? Yes. Math. And that was home charging with paying for every kilowatt. Would that apply to people in condos? If they had a charger, or an outlet, then possibly. Renters with nothing but a 110 outlet? Can be done, and done okay. Cold weather? There's a significant impact. Enough to make the car unusable? North of Ohio, sometimes...

But pickup trucks don't work for everybody. But the Ford F-150 has been for a long time on the top ten of the worlds best selling vehicle. Does that mean it's anywhere near the best of anything? No, not really in any way.

So, my point is that the math works for a lot of people. Everybody? Of course not. Perfect? Absolutely not. Nothing is a perfect solution for anything.

Shawn

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Jump to conclusions much?

Every car isn't for every person, and for certain electrics aren't for everybody. But there's a lot of people for whom "the math" makes the car make sense.

When a five year evaluation shows a Tesla Model 3 performance to be cheaper in those five years than a Toyota Camry? Yes. Math. And that was home charging with paying for every kilowatt. Would that apply to people in condos? If they had a charger, or an outlet, then possibly. Renters with nothing but a 110 outlet? Can be done, and done okay. Cold weather? There's a significant impact. Enough to make the car unusable? North of Ohio, sometimes...

But pickup trucks don't work for everybody. But the Ford F-150 has been for a long time on the top ten of the worlds best selling vehicle. Does that mean it's anywhere near the best of anything? No, not really in any way.

So, my point is that the math works for a lot of people. Everybody? Of course not. Perfect? Absolutely not. Nothing is a perfect solution for anything.

Shawn

Well said. No perfect vehicles for anyone at all times.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Jump to conclusions much?

Every car isn't for every person, and for certain electrics aren't for everybody. But there's a lot of people for whom "the math" makes the car make sense.

When a five year evaluation shows a Tesla Model 3 performance to be cheaper in those five years than a Toyota Camry? Yes. Math. And that was home charging with paying for every kilowatt. Would that apply to people in condos? If they had a charger, or an outlet, then possibly. Renters with nothing but a 110 outlet? Can be done, and done okay. Cold weather? There's a significant impact. Enough to make the car unusable? North of Ohio, sometimes...

But pickup trucks don't work for everybody. But the Ford F-150 has been for a long time on the top ten of the worlds best selling vehicle. Does that mean it's anywhere near the best of anything? No, not really in any way.

So, my point is that the math works for a lot of people. Everybody? Of course not. Perfect? Absolutely not. Nothing is a perfect solution for anything.

Shawn

You'll have to show the math that says the Model3P is less expensive to own than a Camry.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You'll have to show me the math that says the Model3P is less expensive to own than a Camry.

https://insideevs.com/features/52746...amry-cost/amp/

It’s a pretty comprehensive analysis.

Shawn

[BGM-M3COMP]

Lmaoooo

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

https://insideevs.com/features/52746...amry-cost/amp/

It’s a pretty comprehensive analysis.

Shawn

That's link is an article from 2021..things change...


Here's a related article from 2023...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/co...and-tesla-bmw/
Electric cars losing their value twice as fast as petrol alternatives

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

That's link is an article from 2021..things change...


Here's a related article from 2023...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/co...and-tesla-bmw/
Electric cars losing their value twice as fast as petrol alternatives

BMW’s lose value very fast too. Doesn’t dissuade people. It’s just one part of ownership.

Again, electrics aren’t the solution for everyone. But they are the solution for some. I’ve had seven, but all had back up gas engines. The ability to cruise around town on nothing but electric really decreases total cost.

Shawn

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

https://insideevs.com/features/52746...amry-cost/amp/

It’s a pretty comprehensive analysis.

Shawn

Lol. Typical, a video of someone else's math, not yours.

The claim is Tesla's claim (and math). 4 minutes into the video and no math. The video chat boy then throws up figures that he does not back up with calculations. And he assumes $2,000 miles in maintenance for the Camery over 60,000 miles, which is utter nonsense. Secondly the video compares a Model 3 LR, not a M3P. And the video chatboy's math shows just one cent cost per-mile difference.

Tesla said its operating cost per mile is $0.55 (55 cents) for 60,000 miles "which is half of a typical ICE car". Utter nonsense. Using the prices in the video for the Model 3 LR ($41K) and the Camry ($25K), the cost per mile just to amortize the sale price alone of each over 60,000 miles shows the Camery at $0.41 (41 cents) and the Model 3 LR at $0.68 (68 cents) per mile.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Lol. Typical, a video of someone else's math, not yours.

The claim is Tesla's claim (and math). 4 minutes into the video and no math. The video chat boy then throws up figures that he does not back up with calculations. And he assumes $2,000 miles in maintenance for the Camery over 60,000 miles, which is utter nonsense. Secondly the video compares a Model 3 LR, not a M3P. And the video chatboy's math shows just one cent cost per-mile difference.

Tesla said its operating cost per mile is $0.55 (55 cents) for 60,000 miles "which is half of a typical ICE car". Utter nonsense. Using the prices in the video for the Model 3 LR ($41K) and the Camry ($25K), the cost per mile just to amortize the sale price alone of each over 60,000 miles shows the Camery at $0.41 (41 cents) and the Model 3 LR at $0.68 (68 cents) per mile.

Of course not my math. Don’t have a Tesla. But $2000 over 60,000 miles is not “utter nonsense”. Unless you DIY, it could easily be that. Even if you DIY, one set of tires can push it to that.

You can argue the figures if you want, but it’s within realm. Too many people back that up, including me. My hybrids TCO’s are much smaller than the corresponding regular. The increase in cost over the regular is cancelled out over time.

Shawn

[BGM-M3COMP]

I love spending only 8 bucks or so to charge my car

[shawnhayes]

Insurance and tires are big parts of a car ownership. So if you’re just gonna “throw them out”, let’s just throw out the base price of the car.

I see you’re going to argue your point with whatever is “convenient” to throw out that day, you’re never going to see the other side of the argument.

Hundreds of thousands of buyers do. If you don’t want to, fine. But don’t pretend that the rest of us are stupid for buying an electric car, or electrified version.

Shawn

[ASAP]

I mean simple math... the most cost efficient option is and always will be a 2 year old Toyota Corolla... if you are not doing that, then you are not using the most cost efficient option.

However, I will argue a Tesla model 3 is by nature a fast car so that doesn't make it comparable even if you discount the electric drivetrain.

A fair comparo for a base model 3 MAY be a Camry Hybrid which again isn't exactly comparable but still holds a near 10K price advantage...

The model 3 is a good option if you want to explore EVs but it holds no true cost advantage no matter what blabber anyone tells you.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

BMW’s lose value very fast too. Doesn’t dissuade people. It’s just one part of ownership.

Again, electrics aren’t the solution for everyone. But they are the solution for some. I’ve had seven, but all had back up gas engines. The ability to cruise around town on nothing but electric really decreases total cost.

Shawn

No one buys a bmw to save money..tesla model 3 on the other hand...
and depreciation is part of the ownership cost experience. I like cruising in all electric too..in a car that's well built and has little road noise etc..no point in having electric silence when suspension noise and road noise from wheel arches is a problem.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Insurance and tires are big parts of a car ownership. So if you’re just gonna “throw them out”, let’s just throw out the base price of the car.

I see you’re going to argue your point with whatever is “convenient” to throw out that day, you’re never going to see the other side of the argument.

Hundreds of thousands of buyers do. If you don’t want to, fine. But don’t pretend that the rest of us are stupid for buying an electric car, or electrified version.

Shawn

I mean most buyers don't buy it for the performance or the interior or the ride quality or the environment. Most imo buy it as it saves a couple of hundred bucks in fuel per month. And I do think that people buying ev to save money unless they're doing mega Mile's aren't that clever.
Even yesterday a friend whose just bought a model y was raving about how his y takes £7 in electricity costs to fill up for 250 miles and that the merc it replaced would cost £ 24. The math is fine until you realise that he's replaced a 7 year old merc in perfect working order and little to no depreciation with a 45k vehicle to save a bit of cash.