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      07-02-2019, 08:32 AM   #1
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Alignment/Steering Woes

I was wondering whether anyone could help with some issues I am experiencing with my steering/alignment. I completely understand and appreciate it is very hard to explain issues like this without actually experiencing it but here goes..

The car wants to steer slightly to the left if I am at constant speed and generally, it just doesn't feel all that stable, like it wants to wander. It is more noticeable at higher speeds.

To put things into context, the car was fitted with Bilstein B12 springs and dampers, M3 front control arms then had a full 4 wheel alignment late last year.

It was then re-aligned earlier this year as I wasn't completely happy. This was done at a different place. Both places used a hunter laser system.

It was better but still felt it wasn't 100% after the 2nd alignment and lived with it.

I then swapped the wheels from left to right and had them re-balanced. One wheel was quite severely out of balance for one reason or another. But this didn't really change anything to what I am experiencing so ruled out potential buckled/cracked alloys.

I am also running 15mm spacers all round.

What do I do next?
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      07-02-2019, 08:41 AM   #2
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If it wants to pull to one side constantly, that's a geometry/alignment problem. Might not be the usual camber/toe adjustments; could be alignment of the rear subframe too.

If you figure out a solution for the wandering / tramlining, I'm all ears. A lot of folk say that new non-rft tyres of a different brand cures it for them, but at least my issue doesn't feel like that's what's amiss.

Good luck!
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      07-02-2019, 08:57 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
If it wants to pull to one side constantly, that's a geometry/alignment problem. Might not be the usual camber/toe adjustments; could be alignment of the rear subframe too.

If you figure out a solution for the wandering / tramlining, I'm all ears. A lot of folk say that new non-rft tyres of a different brand cures it for them, but at least my issue doesn't feel like that's what's amiss.

Good luck!
Hmmm so alignment again? Damn...
Rear subframe alignment? First I have heard of this? Are there places who do this? Not being funny, genuinely curious and interested!

Also, I got rid of RFTs when I bought the car 3 years ago and I don't really experience any tramlining thankfully.
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      07-02-2019, 09:06 AM   #4
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I think I am suffering more or less the same issue with wandering at higher speeds and a general "not as tight as it should be" feeling... I also had mine aligned on a Hunter after having my suspension changed and it was fine for a while but I now suspect pretty much most of the bushes are worn front and rear...

With you replacing your front arms with M3 parts then it is less likely to be the front end though still definitely worth checking around. My guess would be the rear end subframe bushes and possibly the rear arms if not been changed....

Soon I will do every bush on the car, most likely with this kit - http://www.strongflexuk.co.uk/bmw/3-...-bush-kit.html
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      07-02-2019, 09:40 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirleeofroy View Post
I think I am suffering more or less the same issue with wandering at higher speeds and a general "not as tight as it should be" feeling... I also had mine aligned on a Hunter after having my suspension changed and it was fine for a while but I now suspect pretty much most of the bushes are worn front and rear...

With you replacing your front arms with M3 parts then it is less likely to be the front end though still definitely worth checking around. My guess would be the rear end subframe bushes and possibly the rear arms if not been changed....

Soon I will do every bush on the car, most likely with this kit - http://www.strongflexuk.co.uk/bmw/3-...-bush-kit.html
Okay, so the rear (except for the springs/dampers) is something I haven't concentrated on! Will have to take a look. Cheers.
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      07-02-2019, 09:46 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueh88 View Post
Hmmm so alignment again? Damn...
Rear subframe alignment? First I have heard of this? Are there places who do this? Not being funny, genuinely curious and interested!

Also, I got rid of RFTs when I bought the car 3 years ago and I don't really experience any tramlining thankfully.
Yeah, I really don't understand mine. Every time I get it aligned, despite my skepticism, it feels better...a few months later I'm back to wanting it fixed. I've heard of the rear camber/toe shifting from spirited driving, but not the front.

Hmm, maybe I misunderstood your issue. When you said wandering I interpreted that as tramlining. Does it do it worst on roads with lorry ruts or weird camber changes?

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1506694
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      07-02-2019, 12:15 PM   #7
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As you may have read on my threads, my rear subframe is bent or been pushed and bent a subframe bolt because I changed absolutely everything (hub all arms and alloy) and it improved a lot but the toe is still slightly off. But the car doesn't wonder off and having spent a lot of time at Chemix in stourbridge he did tell me about the geometry which is shown on a separate diagram but it had something to with an imaginary line or something and having the wheels pointing straight.. I didn't quite get it but the Chap at Chemix in stourbridge is bloody brilliant.. but what's strange is your is aligned and wonders off whereas mine is absolutely fine, I can only feel the alignment issue if I boot it and it slips a little.

Also, how exactly did you align the car when you've upgraded to m3 arms? From what I've read it becomes a bit of a nightmare trying to align the car with them on, and if I'm not mistaken when chemix gets everything setup they chose your car from a list which specifies the x y and z of alignment specifications but if I'm not mistaken you cant follow them, I'm pretty sure I read another thread with people using M3 arms using some other figures
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      07-02-2019, 12:47 PM   #8
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It’s my understanding that if you fit m3 suspension parts then you need a custom/bespoke set up, not just a generic e9x with sport/lowered suspension values.
There are posts on here about it, Rajb's build thread would be a good place to look.
Good luck getting it set up correctly.
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Last edited by Chappers 71; 07-02-2019 at 05:17 PM..
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      07-02-2019, 04:38 PM   #9
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+1 on the rear alignment, my 2006 e90 330d m sport (same as yours?) had the rear alignment quite a way out. Do you have any abnormal tread wear on the rear tyres?
The hunter alignment should have picked it up, but the first time I took mine in, they told me it was out but they wouldnít do it as the bolts in the rear would likely shear off, leaving me stuck and at the mercy of their price list. Honest of them...
I therefore preemptively purchased new bolts and then soaked the existing bolts in penetrating oil, being careful to not just soak the bushes. I then freed mine off, confirmed they would rotate and then got the rear adjustment done.
Handled much better thereafter. The bolts are eccentric - not mounted in the centre of their washer.
Having the rear done will likely necessitate the front being tweaked too... however if youíve got a non standard set up, then I suspect that would have to be sorted.
Good luck.
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      07-03-2019, 04:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
Yeah, I really don't understand mine. Every time I get it aligned, despite my skepticism, it feels better...a few months later I'm back to wanting it fixed. I've heard of the rear camber/toe shifting from spirited driving, but not the front.

Hmm, maybe I misunderstood your issue. When you said wandering I interpreted that as tramlining. Does it do it worst on roads with lorry ruts or weird camber changes?

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1506694
Well, I think wandering might be the wrong word then! Ha. It's nothing unexpected over camber changes etc. like, I can just feel a nudge on the steering wheel but not tramlining as such. I hope that makes sense?
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      07-03-2019, 04:33 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSweet1991 View Post
As you may have read on my threads, my rear subframe is bent or been pushed and bent a subframe bolt because I changed absolutely everything (hub all arms and alloy) and it improved a lot but the toe is still slightly off. But the car doesn't wonder off and having spent a lot of time at Chemix in stourbridge he did tell me about the geometry which is shown on a separate diagram but it had something to with an imaginary line or something and having the wheels pointing straight.. I didn't quite get it but the Chap at Chemix in stourbridge is bloody brilliant.. but what's strange is your is aligned and wonders off whereas mine is absolutely fine, I can only feel the alignment issue if I boot it and it slips a little.

Also, how exactly did you align the car when you've upgraded to m3 arms? From what I've read it becomes a bit of a nightmare trying to align the car with them on, and if I'm not mistaken when chemix gets everything setup they chose your car from a list which specifies the x y and z of alignment specifications but if I'm not mistaken you cant follow them, I'm pretty sure I read another thread with people using M3 arms using some other figures
Well, I think the two shops just used the standard settings for my car, so not taking into account the M3 arms. This very well could be part of the issue then!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chappers 71 View Post
Itís my understanding that if you fit m3 suspension parts then you need a custom/bespoke set up, not just a generic e9x with sport/lowered suspension values.
There are posts on here about it, Rajb's build thread would be a good place to look.
Good luck getting it set up correctly.
As above, I think I have just the generic E9x settings...I'll will have a look at Rajbs thread for details then.
Nice one!
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      07-03-2019, 04:35 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post
+1 on the rear alignment, my 2006 e90 330d m sport (same as yours?) had the rear alignment quite a way out. Do you have any abnormal tread wear on the rear tyres?
The hunter alignment should have picked it up, but the first time I took mine in, they told me it was out but they wouldnít do it as the bolts in the rear would likely shear off, leaving me stuck and at the mercy of their price list. Honest of them...
I therefore preemptively purchased new bolts and then soaked the existing bolts in penetrating oil, being careful to not just soak the bushes. I then freed mine off, confirmed they would rotate and then got the rear adjustment done.
Handled much better thereafter. The bolts are eccentric - not mounted in the centre of their washer.
Having the rear done will likely necessitate the front being tweaked too... however if youíve got a non standard set up, then I suspect that would have to be sorted.
Good luck.
M
Tread wear seems to be fairly normal and as expected across the width...
Yup, so the general consensus is to the backs play a huge role in a good alignment along with the correct settings!!
Thanks.
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      07-03-2019, 07:07 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueh88 View Post
Well, I think the two shops just used the standard settings for my car, so not taking into account the M3 arms. This very well could be part of the issue then!



As above, I think I have just the generic E9x settings...I'll will have a look at Rajbs thread for details then.
Nice one!
Iím fairly sure Raj has done the m3 arms etc, it may be easier to pm him as his build thread is huge but worth a read through if you havenít already done so
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      07-03-2019, 08:12 AM   #14
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Have you tried driving on the right side of the road and seeing if it still does it? (When safe ect ect)
A lot of roads are sloped to the left to aid in drainage.... worth a check
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      07-04-2019, 03:17 PM   #15
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I've read all of Raj's thread actually (what a motor), but never paid attention at the time on the suspension setup bits. After revisiting them just now he's been to very specialist companies to have it set up. I'm going to contact 9Meisters which are the closest to me who specialise in geometry setups etc.

Yeah I've driven in the middle of the road and it isn't as bad so the normal slight cambers in the road definitely do contribute. But it still did pull, funnily enough I even felt it pull to the right at times too!!! It might just be me going mad and become hyper sensitive to it now.

I also called the last place who did my alignment and he also mentioned the camber in the road which could be it. Also that it doesn't matter that the front arms are from the M3, there isn't much adjustment anyway in the front so it doesn't need alternate settings? I'll be honest I don't know enough about it to make comment..or is it the case if I had the rear M3 arms then it needs a different geometry setup? Confusing.

Anyway, just to add, I went on a very spirited drive, just enjoying the power and the Quaife. Around a certain fast sweeping bend, I went over a bump where the car skipped over but I felt sort of a shimmy of the rear end. Not a shimmy where the tyres were sliding as I know what that feels like, it was what I'm assuming shifting of the subframe?? I don't know if it's because you guys have mentioned it so I'm trying to concentrate too hard on it, but it definitely felt different to conventional tyre slip...
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      07-04-2019, 04:37 PM   #16
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Yeah, m3 front arms won't be the culprit. They change the camber, but you can't really adjust the resulting camber much. Standard toe setting with m3 arms will work fine, though 0 toe is probably better overall (or negative toe for track use).

The shimmy when hitting a bump mid corner is exactly the symptom of sloppy rear subframe bushes, so I'm told. Mine does it too, so they're top of my list.
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      07-05-2019, 04:04 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
Yeah, m3 front arms won't be the culprit. They change the camber, but you can't really adjust the resulting camber much. Standard toe setting with m3 arms will work fine, though 0 toe is probably better overall (or negative toe for track use).

The shimmy when hitting a bump mid corner is exactly the symptom of sloppy rear subframe bushes, so I'm told. Mine does it too, so they're top of my list.
I can confirm mine 100% shifts over a bump, it doesn't slip as blue says it literally shifts across a tad. Only difference is I know my subframe has kinked or shifted whereas this is out of the blue. Although it's unlikely has anyone had to mess with the subframe mounts blueh88 to do work like you LSD?..
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      07-05-2019, 06:08 AM   #18
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Hi all.

Haven't had a chance to logon in a while.

One thing of note to those that have fitted the M3 arms is that dues to the increased negative camber this will change the characteristics slightly and you will find the car wants to follow the road a little more. So yes with the slight camber our roads tend to run it will naturally want to pull to the left more than before but only slightly.

As for alignment, going to a specialist is better when you have started to upgrade from stock parts. They will be able to counter the -ve camber with slight toe increases/decreases accordingly. If you have even wear on the tyres then that's a good thing as it does suggest your alignment is pretty good and may not be the cause of the issues.

Rear is also a good place to check and things like work bushes etc can cause issues once an alignment states it looks spot on.

Hopefully that helps.
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      07-05-2019, 08:38 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSweet1991 View Post
I can confirm mine 100% shifts over a bump, it doesn't slip as blue says it literally shifts across a tad. Only difference is I know my subframe has kinked or shifted whereas this is out of the blue. Although it's unlikely has anyone had to mess with the subframe mounts blueh88 to do work like you LSD?..
It was Birds Auto that did my LSD and no, I don't think they would have? To be honest, with how good Birds are, I would have expected anything glaringly obvious to be mentioned. So it must be something not obvious and hopefully not too serious to sort out!!
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      07-05-2019, 08:39 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RajB View Post
Hi all.

Haven't had a chance to logon in a while.

One thing of note to those that have fitted the M3 arms is that dues to the increased negative camber this will change the characteristics slightly and you will find the car wants to follow the road a little more. So yes with the slight camber our roads tend to run it will naturally want to pull to the left more than before but only slightly.

As for alignment, going to a specialist is better when you have started to upgrade from stock parts. They will be able to counter the -ve camber with slight toe increases/decreases accordingly. If you have even wear on the tyres then that's a good thing as it does suggest your alignment is pretty good and may not be the cause of the issues.

Rear is also a good place to check and things like work bushes etc can cause issues once an alignment states it looks spot on.

Hopefully that helps.
Thanks Raj.

My next steps is to find a good geometry/suspension type company and have it all checked out and take it from there.
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      07-05-2019, 09:08 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueh88 View Post
Thanks Raj.

My next steps is to find a good geometry/suspension type company and have it all checked out and take it from there.
No problem.

Yeah a decent alignment company should be able to ensure it's all good. But definitely check bushes etc all round including the rear.
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      07-05-2019, 09:13 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RajB View Post
No problem.

Yeah a decent alignment company should be able to ensure it's all good. But definitely check bushes etc all round including the rear.
Definitely - I'll get the place checking the alignment to have all the relevant components checked at the same time too.
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