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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Your next bolt on Part 2 - Exhaust cam upgrade



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      01-07-2019, 09:40 AM   #1
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Your next bolt on Part 2 - Exhaust cam upgrade

I don't think this is a true bolt-on, but a full on cam swap.
Nissan has it's own version of Valvetronic (called VVL) and like the BMW, they use it on the intake cam, and have a conventional fixed cam on the exhaust.

JWT (some of the best Nissan cam makers out there, bar none) had made a exhaust cam, and you can see the results for yourself:

http://www.the370z.com/engine-drivet...-inside-6.html

Fully stock vs exhaust cam and tuning



Hhhnnngggnnnn - look at that torque increase.



With full bolt ons, and a more aggressive cam (it's said all that was changed was the exhaust cam, and a new tune for the cam):



Dynojet numbers of another car - FBO+exhaust Cam -



These are about 15whp+ more than a normal FBO 370. Hhgggnnnnnnn

Last edited by Taskmaster; 01-08-2019 at 02:39 PM..
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      01-07-2019, 10:13 AM   #2
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LOL! You are like obsessed ex. Are you sure you don't want another N52?

Do you know, when justpete (RIP) was doing cam experiments, did he do only intake or both?

This looks promising. Combining cams + MILVS + N54 intake, I think would def reach e46 M3 levels.
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      01-07-2019, 12:34 PM   #3
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That is awesome! I haven’t even had my e92 for 2 years yet and I’ve seen some nice developments in that time but it seems like in the last 6 months we have come to the end of the road... but I hope there will be continued progress I would love to be able to get to 280-300 whp on this platform.

I have test driven so many cars in the last year but really can’t find anything I enjoy as much as my e92. A little more N/A whp like 20-30 would make it perfect in my eyes and as stated about equal to the e46m3.
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      01-07-2019, 12:49 PM   #4
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What is the cost? Unfortunately those VQs are a bigger market than the N52 imo. JWT is in CA, I am sure they would make them if someone paid them enough to do it. Very nice gains NA. Makes you wonder why Nissan didn't bother? Or perhaps they were saving it for an LCI.
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      01-07-2019, 01:11 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W37V View Post
LOL! You are like obsessed ex. Are you sure you don't want another N52?

Do you know, when justpete (RIP) was doing cam experiments, did he do only intake or both?

This looks promising. Combining cams + MILVS + N54 intake, I think would def reach e46 M3 levels.
Yeah man, I miss the N52 for sure. This car is SO FAST though. But Pete did work with cams, and you could have them regound (JUST the exhaust) if you wanted to, the only real cost would be the installation. Lucky for us as an inline engine, it doesn't require twice the work.

Pete's cams were regrinds, and they did "work" in that the car didn't blow up and drove fine. I believe the story was (you have to ask Hass, my memory is a bit fuzzy on this) that the intake and exhaust cam may have been mixed up by the cam vendor. That, and they ground cam advance into into the intake, instead of retard or leaving it +0.

BPC ended up testing them, and managed to massage them from losing power, to breaking even.

But you should really check out the thread if you haven't - this would really make the car come alive in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
That is awesome! I haven’t even had my e92 for 2 years yet and I’ve seen some nice developments in that time but it seems like in the last 6 months we have come to the end of the road... but I hope there will be continued progress I would love to be able to get to 280-300 whp on this platform.

I have test driven so many cars in the last year but really can’t find anything I enjoy as much as my e92. A little more N/A whp like 20-30 would make it perfect in my eyes and as stated about equal to the e46m3.
I don't expect that much power - the QV37 does carry almost a liter more of displacement, and a lot of these cars are using proper long tubes to aid scavaging. But the MILVS by themselves can add more that 15lbft and 10whp - who is to say something like this couldn't add 10-15 more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
What is the cost? Unfortunately those VQs are a bigger market than the N52 imo. JWT is in CA, I am sure they would make them if someone paid them enough to do it. Very nice gains NA. Makes you wonder why Nissan didn't bother? Or perhaps they were saving it for an LCI.
There are always compromises.

I remember Modified Magazine did a camshaft shootout on the VQ and JWT cams walked all over everything else. They are the truth - I had a set in my KA24DE Altima, and they really transformed the car. I don't think they have any interest in stepping into BMWs, but that's ok, there are people that will.

Last edited by Taskmaster; 01-07-2019 at 01:21 PM..
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      01-07-2019, 01:37 PM   #6
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+1 on JWT. Used to be a Nissan guy and those guys always churned out good stuff. Though if I recall, their stuff never looked very visually impressive.

Not sure if they rectified this, but the gears attached to the cams stopped having holes you could zip tie to (old SR20DE guy), so if you moved the lobes too much, it was a trial and error firestorm. Even harder since you needed a serious grease pen to mark TDC as the gear itself was a very polished other than the actual teeth to the chain. Anyway that was nearly two decades ago and I'd like to think that I've improved my skillset a bit since then as well.

Mossy used to work with them a lot and pumped out a TON of custom exhaust parts that would blow the shelf brands away.

Anyway nostalgia.

Good luck if you go that route. Definitely a lot of tuning in that realm.
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      01-07-2019, 01:50 PM   #7
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Aww you got me all excited. Thought one was already available. Still saving for that SC
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      01-07-2019, 02:09 PM   #8
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Guys, one IS available. Riot Racing will regrind one for you - https://westcoastriots.com/shop/

Typically about $300 (or less) for the cam if you can source your own blanks (Car-Part and ebay)

But you'll still need a tune, and if you don't have a tuner like BPC or AA in your back yard, you'll have to do like Pete and I did, and send them one to get tested and tuned.
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      01-07-2019, 03:24 PM   #9
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JWT has the shittiest website http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/ ever but god damn do they make power on a VQ: https://www.onpointdyno.com/making-p...dyno-timeline/ <--cams really made the engine shine...



A Stock VQ35 @ 215whp vs 372whp at 3900rpm there are almost no gains, 5200rpm ~70hp – but the peak to peak differences are 157whp

Same displacement, same valves, same oiling system, same drive train. The differences are cams, heads, pistons, rods and external components. <--Cams & ITBs are what is doing the majority of this. Engine's are air pumps and you just need to get as much in and out.
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      01-07-2019, 03:53 PM   #10
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Yeah, on that build the pistons, rods etc did nothing. Now that 377whp was with a normal manifold (custom), he went to ITB and made like 4XXwhp.
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      01-07-2019, 05:49 PM   #11
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Now you're talking

I'm not sure how the N52 cam is set up (it's really hard to tell based on BMW specs) but typically BMW uses a dual pattern intake/exhaust, where the exhaust has less duration and lift than the intake. That's fine for a stock engine, but when you mod stuff it doesn't work so well. I can definitely see a custom exhaust profile making a difference with MILVS and headers..
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      01-08-2019, 09:16 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
Now you're talking

I'm not sure how the N52 cam is set up (it's really hard to tell based on BMW specs) but typically BMW uses a dual pattern intake/exhaust, where the exhaust has less duration and lift than the intake. That's fine for a stock engine, but when you mod stuff it doesn't work so well. I can definitely see a custom exhaust profile making a difference with MILVS and headers..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty
When I look closely at the pictures,
In your thread 'cams' #2 post Pete has the cams backwards. What he called intake cam is actually the exhaust cam.

Everything I can find-
Intake cam- has 'shorter' base circle, 0.100" height or so, nearly the size of the cam bearing circle, WIDER lobes, shorter rear tip/end.

Exhaust cam- has TALLER base circle, 0.200", NARROWER lobes, longer rear tip.

The install pictures are correctly installed.

So what happened?
Pete got the cams reversed and Riot ground them wrong?
Or
Pete got them reversed and Riot ground them correctly.

I have a couple exhaust cams on heads. I'm thinking about sending them to Riot to get reground. If they tell me the specs great, if not I will just have them measured.

Intake cams with Valvetronic can NOT be reground, I've shown/proven that, but can be made to get more lift and slightly more duration, MILVs.

So MILVs + reground exhaust cam with more lift sounds like the way to go. And changing just the exhaust cam only is a much easier install and if careful and you mark the timing chain, timing will be good.
Just like changing the exhaust cam for leaking oil journals or whatever they call that.

N54 cams should fit and might fit the N52. Don't know the stock specs, but maybe use the Schrick 264* 11.0mm lift.
It looks like the only difference is the cams construction.
N52- hydroformed
N54- cast formed
They 'look' different.

So depending on cost, use-
-reground N52 exhaust cam, new core or used
-Schrick N54 264 11.0mm or 268 10.5mm. It looks like both are new cores and will work with stock valve springs.

Exhaust cam done, mike drop. Ha.
Intake cam done with MILVs.

Post it, think about it, see what hass thinks.
So I'm posting - Early N52's did use a cast camshaft, but according to BMW, that didn't make a difference.
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      01-08-2019, 09:58 AM   #13
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So where is this super secret hideout Marty is hanging out at now?
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      01-08-2019, 10:07 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnuke View Post
So where is this super secret hideout Marty is hanging out at now?
He is hanging out on the N54 forums afaik. They claim to not be only N54 specific but they basically are. At least that is where I see him post.

I can give you hints if you would like.

1st: What do turbos do at the beginning as they build boost? What do you drive on?

2nd: Another name for a BMW? What do turbos make?
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      01-08-2019, 10:09 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnuke View Post
So where is this super secret hideout Marty is hanging out at now?
My email, probably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
He is hanging out on the N54 forums afaik. They claim to not be only N54 specific but they basically are. At least that is where I see him post.

I can give you hints if you would like.

1st: What do turbos do at the beginning as they build boost? What do you drive on?

2nd: Another name for a BMW? What do turbos make?
Something about Bimmer's and Boost right?
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      01-08-2019, 10:46 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
So I'm posting - Early N52's did use a cast camshaft, but according to BMW, that didn't make a difference.
well, they actually used both - because BMW couldn't get enough hollow formed cams built at first. It just depended on what happened to be available at the time your engine was built. Some engines even had one hollow and one solid cam (the one that came on my parts engine for example). My 330i has both hollow.

BTW, Pete shared with me the cam cards for those regrinds - they definitely got the profiles mixed up. I think they thought E = exhaust, but it actually means einlass (inlet).

11mm of lift would be good but I'm not sure a 268 duration is enough. It really depends on what the duration is with MILVS - the only real way to measure that would be at the valve itself.

Last edited by hassmaschine; 01-08-2019 at 10:52 AM..
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      01-08-2019, 10:55 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
well, they actually used both - because BMW couldn't get enough hollow formed cams built at first. It just depended on what happened to be available at the time your engine was built. Some engines even had one hollow and one solid cam (the one that came on my parts engine for example). My 330i has both hollow.

BTW, Pete shared with me the cam cards for those regrinds - they definitely got the profiles mixed up. I think they thought E = exhaust, but it actually means einlass (inlet).

11mm of lift would be good but I'm not sure a 268 duration is enough. It really depends on what the duration is with MILVS - the only real way to measure that would be at the valve itself.
As far as I know, I believe they didn't want to share the cam spec in public (which is fine) but if someone were to just have the exhaust cam reground, from what you saw and what you know about the VVT tables, would there be any issues with their profile?
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      01-08-2019, 11:18 AM   #18
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I don't see why they couldn't do the exhaust cam properly, as long as you told them it was the exhaust only and what you wanted - I don't fault them for the error, I think they were excited to do something new. It just didn't work out..
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      01-08-2019, 11:48 AM   #19
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I have a few thoughts here that I want to gather input on... but first of all I want to say thank you to our homie Taskmaster for bringing this subject up. I can see that you haven’t given up on the n52 and I’m glad you are still punching the clock here on the n52 forum. We already lost CobraMarty so it’s good you are still contributing cause this forum has been kind of dead the last few months lol

Questions...

Are you guys certain Pete’s sample cams were not properly ground? Certain enough that it’s 100% worth redoing again?

It’s hard for me to believe with all the n52 track car 128/328 I see that no one has ever experimented with an exhaust cam. Wouldn’t we have seen this already if it worked? Wouldn’t BPC have done this on their turbo built it looks like they spared no expense there?

If this is new ground and it looks worthy then maybe this would be possible as a “crowd funded” type pf project. I for one would be willing to gamble some of my hard earned $$ on doing a test cam with a dyno tune. I would even do it on my car but I’m too far from BPC and I honestly don’t trust any tuners in my area.

Is there anyone close to BPC that would take point on this (they need to have MILV’s) or would BPC be willing to install and test/dyno/tune a cam on one of their cars if we supplied a part (maybe contributed towards expenses)? Just as speculation maybe 10 people each chip in $100 and we can get a sample part made and tested? (I have no idea the expense involved but sharing it seems more doable than one person taking the big gamble.)

How do we get BPC involved?
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      01-08-2019, 01:11 PM   #20
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Yes - because I saw the cam card, and when dyno'd it lost power - at best BPC managed to make it back to stock power.

as far as I know, nobody has ever done an exhaust cam swap along with MILVS, or without either.
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      01-08-2019, 01:17 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biginboca View Post
I have a few thoughts here that I want to gather input on... but first of all I want to say thank you to our homie Taskmaster for bringing this subject up. I can see that you havenít given up on the n52 and Iím glad you are still punching the clock here on the n52 forum. We already lost CobraMarty so itís good you are still contributing cause this forum has been kind of dead the last few months lol

Questions...

Are you guys certain Peteís sample cams were not properly ground? Certain enough that itís 100% worth redoing again?

Itís hard for me to believe with all the n52 track car 128/328 I see that no one has ever experimented with an exhaust cam. Wouldnít we have seen this already if it worked? Wouldnít BPC have done this on their turbo built it looks like they spared no expense there?

If this is new ground and it looks worthy then maybe this would be possible as a ďcrowd fundedĒ type pf project. I for one would be willing to gamble some of my hard earned $$ on doing a test cam with a dyno tune. I would even do it on my car but Iím too far from BPC and I honestly donít trust any tuners in my area.

Is there anyone close to BPC that would take point on this (they need to have MILVís) or would BPC be willing to install and test/dyno/tune a cam on one of their cars if we supplied a part (maybe contributed towards expenses)? Just as speculation maybe 10 people each chip in $100 and we can get a sample part made and tested? (I have no idea the expense involved but sharing it seems more doable than one person taking the big gamble.)

How do we get BPC involved?

From what I remember (Marty had to remind me, and maybe Hass can fill in the blanks)
Pete had his cams sent to be regound. Based on the pictures (found in this thread)
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showt...1082913&page=3

apparently purchased new units and sent them to West Coast Riots to be reground. You don't have to do this, a used cam would work fine.

Pete then installed it into his car - lost power with his off the shelf tune.

From here, things get fuzzy - Pete may have sent them to Hass or Bob at BPC, but at some point, I know Hass has seen the cam cards. Bob had installed them on a test car and tried to tune them, and was able to make back the stock power, but that was it.

Being that the cams were ground backwards, its a wonder that they didn't make power.


You would need to pay the $300 and ask Bob to test it, and see what happens. I did the same thing when the MILVs came out.
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      01-08-2019, 01:39 PM   #22
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If you get them a cam and allow them to make tune for it, I'm sure they could adapt your current tune for these cams.

Bob@BPC Phil@BPC

Last edited by Taskmaster; 01-08-2019 at 01:52 PM..
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