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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Supercharger stuff (MILVs+AA+BPC)



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      05-15-2018, 07:59 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir View Post
This is what is keeping me guessing TBH.
I dunno how it'd pan out. I know it works wonders with their turbo build (naturally) just unsure for my concoction.
The Super Charger is RPM dependent on boost. I would keep the 3 stage only because there will be a winder powerband and because no one knows if the supercharger can rev that high.
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      05-15-2018, 08:05 AM   #112
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Can the N54 TB be bored bigger like the BBTB for the N52?
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      05-15-2018, 09:01 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
Can the N54 TB be bored bigger like the BBTB for the N52?
They are basically identical, so probably.
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      05-15-2018, 09:37 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir View Post
This is what is keeping me guessing TBH.
I dunno how it'd pan out. I know it works wonders with their turbo build (naturally) just unsure for my concoction.
The Super Charger is RPM dependent on boost. I would keep the 3 stage only because there will be a winder powerband and because no one knows if the supercharger can rev that high.
Yeh, you right...
Gah this is hard.
I'd like to do it for the science.
But them experiments ain't cheap. -_-"
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      05-15-2018, 10:39 AM   #115
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I have one collecting dust, you can have it (free) if you’re so inclined.

I just personally wouldn’t run the N54 with a super charger though.
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      05-15-2018, 10:46 AM   #116
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The manifold debate with a SC is interesting...

A 3IM loses power up top due to resonance, maybe having a SC can overcome that and force air in regardless of the resonance?

Seems like really you should lean on BPC and their experience to know which way to go since they will be doing the tuning.
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      05-15-2018, 10:47 AM   #117
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The supercharger isn't good at high RPM anyway. I think you would want the 3 stage. The resonance will work the same regardless of ~6-8psi.
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      05-15-2018, 11:08 AM   #118
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You guys are really helping with the decision. Thank you!

Besides, they'd have to hack up the intake pipe to do it and I dunno how I feel about that.

Thanks for all the input, guys!
And the offer, Task!


Besides.. that e85 though...
Whew... Now I'm really getting pushed back on my trip. I has to see.
Was aiming for the week after next.
Gonna squeeze all I can for the time being and enjoy it then move up later in the year / early next year.
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      05-18-2018, 10:20 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
I don’t think the Super Charger can rev high enough to keep up with the N54...
What do you mean?

Regarding the manifold options.. I have no idea how the runner lengths / "frequencies" etc. affect power when dealing with FI. Since you will be forcing air into the manifold rather than relying on natural phenomena, I am leaning toward thinking that whatever research has been done here re. 3 stage mani vs. N54 mani in N/A applications is almost worthless. But again, I don't know a whole lot about that. Hmm now thinking about it, I guess the S/C doesn't add as much boost at low RPMS as a turbo does, therefore having the 3 stage mani might still be beneficial with a S/C for that low-end tq. And perhaps the added boost at high-rpms from the S/C could overcome the 3 stage mani's deficit there? I feel that testing would need to be done to decide which is really best overall.

Regarding the evap and PCV lines, if I were you I would do some research and learn about our PCV system, etc. It's likely that a whole new solution regarding those lines.. perhaps tying them into a catch can system, etc.. will be your best solution. PCV, etc. all changes a lot when going to a boost setup I believe.

It's been a minute since I've owned and tinkered with a boosted car, but I remember doing a whole lot regarding catch cans and PCV system re-arranging on my last one. Sorry that I don't have a whole lot of time at the moment to wrack my brain and try to remember it all. But I will at least for now say that, worst case, you'd probably be OK simply venting PCV and Evap to the air (or through a little filter on the end of a hose). That said, IIRC, it's best to have the PCV system connected to the intake before the "charger" (not the intake mani) because ideally you want big vacuum in that system. The whole point of it is to keep negative pressure in the motor. If the PCV was attached to the intake mani it would be positively charged and do the opposite. It's something about having the pressure "pull" on the bottom rings to keep them sealed under boost.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking a catch-can setup in which PCV goes to the can (in) and then the can (out) goes to the air intake near the filter. You could just go straight from PCV to the air intake near the filter but that can result in oil, sludge, etc getting into the supercharger (or turbo). It's not as big of a deal if this happens with N/A because the motor can burn that ish up. But obviously the supercharger won't like it. Again, it's been a minute so I suggest verifying all of this. Trying to help tho... Perhaps this is addressed in the S/C install instructions? I apologize in advance if I'm throwing you off here though lol. Anyway, regardless of which mani you choose, I definitely recommend looking in to the PCV system, catch cans, etc. N54/N55 guys can maybe help there.

Last edited by atmosphericM; 05-18-2018 at 10:36 AM..
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      05-18-2018, 10:56 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
These supercharger have a maximum rpm or 14,450.

At 7500 engine, you can only go 1.926 pulley ratio. It will be a dog, no boost below 3-4k.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
What do you mean?

Regarding the manifold options.. I have no idea how the runner lengths / "frequencies" etc. affect power when dealing with FI. Since you will be forcing air into the manifold rather than relying on natural phenomena, I am leaning toward thinking that whatever research has been done here re. 3 stage mani vs. N54 mani in N/A applications is almost worthless. But again, I don't know a whole lot about that. Hmm now thinking about it, I guess the S/C doesn't add as much boost at low RPMS as a turbo does, therefore having the 3 stage mani might still be beneficial with a S/C for that low-end tq. And perhaps the added boost at high-rpms from the S/C could overcome the 3 stage mani's deficit there? I feel that testing would need to be done to decide which is really best overall.

Regarding the evap and PCV lines, if I were you I would do some research and learn about our PCV system, etc. It's likely that a whole new solution regarding those lines.. perhaps tying them into a catch can system, etc.. will be your best solution. PCV, etc. all changes a lot when going to a boost setup I believe.

It's been a minute since I've owned and tinkered with a boosted car, but I remember doing a whole lot regarding catch cans and PCV system re-arranging on my last one. Sorry that I don't have a whole lot of time at the moment to wrack my brain and try to remember it all. But I will at least for now say that, worst case, you'd probably be OK simply venting PCV and Evap to the air (or through a little filter on the end of a hose). That said, IIRC, it's best to have the PCV system connected to the intake before the "charger" (not the intake mani) because ideally you want big vacuum in that system. The whole point of it is to keep negative pressure in the motor. If the PCV was attached to the intake mani it would be positively charged and do the opposite. It's something about having the pressure "pull" on the bottom rings to keep them sealed under boost.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking a catch-can setup in which PCV goes to the can (in) and then the can (out) goes to the air intake near the filter. You could just go straight from PCV to the air intake near the filter but that can result in oil, sludge, etc getting into the supercharger (or turbo). It's not as big of a deal if this happens with N/A because the motor can burn that ish up. But obviously the supercharger won't like it. Again, it's been a minute so I suggest verifying all of this. Trying to help tho... Perhaps this is addressed in the S/C install instructions? I apologize in advance if I'm throwing you off here though lol. Anyway, regardless of which mani you choose, I definitely recommend looking in to the PCV system, catch cans, etc. N54/N55 guys can maybe help there.
See quote
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      05-18-2018, 11:13 AM   #121
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How much boost can the SC produce with a 1.926 pulley? Being a dog below 3k isn't the worst thing if the top end gains are worth it, especially with a manual transmission. I have to keep my RPMs above 2k in the N54 because of the light weight flywheel.
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      05-18-2018, 11:23 AM   #122
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Forgive me, don't know a ton about S/C's. So at 4000 S/C RPM (2000 engine RPM), the S/C doesn't create boost?

2000 RPM is as low as these motors like to be for driving anyway IMO.

I mean, anything at all is something. It's not like we are taking a motor that relies first on it's OE (small) turbos and then replacing them with giant ones that take forever to spin up.

Last edited by atmosphericM; 05-18-2018 at 11:29 AM..
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      05-18-2018, 12:13 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
Forgive me, don't know a ton about S/C's. So at 4000 S/C RPM (2000 engine RPM), the S/C doesn't create boost?

2000 RPM is as low as these motors like to be for driving anyway IMO.

I mean, anything at all is something. It's not like we are taking a motor that relies first on it's OE (small) turbos and then replacing them with giant ones that take forever to spin up.
If by something you mean about 1-2lbs of boost at most - sure. It probably won't generate anything significant until 5000+RPM
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      05-18-2018, 12:25 PM   #124
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^ What he said...
I do like staying in the 3-4k range driving though.
I do cruise in the high 2s since I have some of that unpleasant rasp and don't want to annoy other people too much when driving around town. But I do get on it pretty often, it'll be cool!

And atmosphericM !!!
I FOUND IT.
WTF.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1271641

I was trying to post this thread dayyyyys ago.
Especially with his last post... It makes me want to jump on this ASAP when the blower is installed!
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Last edited by Noir; 05-18-2018 at 12:27 PM.. Reason: isuccwhatelse?
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      05-18-2018, 03:03 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
Forgive me, don't know a ton about S/C's. So at 4000 S/C RPM (2000 engine RPM), the S/C doesn't create boost?

2000 RPM is as low as these motors like to be for driving anyway IMO.

I mean, anything at all is something. It's not like we are taking a motor that relies first on it's OE (small) turbos and then replacing them with giant ones that take forever to spin up.
Because superchargers are driven off a pulley, the boost they produce is linearly proportional to engine RPM. Since our motors have a 7000 RPM redline, you have to make sure you're not overspinning the supercharger up top. A side effect of this is that you produce less boost at lower RPMs.
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      05-18-2018, 03:05 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
If by something you mean about 1-2lbs of boost at most - sure. It probably won't generate anything significant until 5000+RPM
Curious - 5000 S/C RPM or engine RPM? I'm hoping it's the former but assuming the latter. Meh. It's too bad S/C's aren't more efficient/effective. Still cool though, obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyrexia View Post
Because superchargers are driven off a pulley, the boost they produce is linearly proportional to engine RPM. Since our motors have a 7000 RPM redline, you have to make sure you're not overspinning the supercharger up top. A side effect of this is that you produce less boost at lower RPMs.
Right. I get that. But what I don't get is why S/C's can't spin at higher rates, allowing a better ratio of engine-to-S/C RPM (different size pulley I suppose), so that they can do a little more down low as well. I guess V8's (the typically S/C'd motor) make plenty of low-end TQ so no-one ever cared as much about S/C's low-RPM performance.
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      05-18-2018, 03:10 PM   #127
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Probably ridiculous notion but has anyone ever experimented with a pulley or S/C blower that has some sort of a brake built in? That way one could run a better ratio pulley and get higher S/C boost on the low end but then change that ratio as the engine revs up?
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      05-18-2018, 03:11 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyrexia View Post
Because superchargers are driven off a pulley, the boost they produce is linearly proportional to engine RPM. Since our motors have a 7000 RPM redline, you have to make sure you're not overspinning the supercharger up top. A side effect of this is that you produce less boost at lower RPMs.
Centrifugal blowers build boost in a linear fashion. Screw blowers are more efficient in the lower RPMs and therefore build boost much quicker but tend to run out of steam in the upper revs.
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      05-18-2018, 03:15 PM   #129
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^Ah good point. For the moment I had completely forgotten about the different types of superchargers *doh*.
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      05-18-2018, 03:15 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmosphericM View Post
Probably ridiculous notion but has anyone ever experimented with a pulley or S/C blower that has some sort of a brake built in? That way one could run a better ratio pulley and get higher S/C boost on the low end but then change that ratio as the engine revs up?
https://www.procharger.com/procharger-i1
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      05-18-2018, 07:48 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
If by something you mean about 1-2lbs of boost at most - sure. It probably won't generate anything significant until 5000+RPM
Don't expect a lot of real world gain from the Vortech SC below 4500-engine-rpm. It's just the nature of the thing, if you want good usable low end then you'd better do a N54/55 swap.

Or you try your best to drive round the less thn ideal powerband.....
I won't say it's very effective, but it's fun, which is all that matters.
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      05-21-2018, 08:26 AM   #132
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There was someone in here that I had in mind, but can't remember and I'm about to get to work...

Anyone want the install document cor their vewing pleasure? Shoot me a good email!
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