[Mr. 5]

Thank you very much for doing this Scalbert!
I actually read every single word too.

I have a question for you...
I think I read somewhere that if the timing is controled via the DME, then this would be a not so good idea.
Having said that, do you see a way where the JB3 can use the same method that the DME uses, but in a safe manner?

Isn't it true..if the JB3 did not control timing then wouldn't we be pinging like crazy at the track?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

It is reasonable for a company to have a secret or two, the Colonel doesn’t print the Original Recipe on every bucket of chicken now does he.

If it is a sustainable competitive advantage that BMS has invented/created then it should remain a secret. If it is deception and a knock sensor then that is another thing. Lets give both camps the benefit of the doubt for now.

I think I see the problem here. Perhaps most people aren't familiar with the various ways to actively control timing with a piggy-back system. There are only two ways:

1) To phase offset the CAS waveform (CPS/CAS offset)
or
2) To drive the coils directly using the factory CAS signal as a reference (for crank position). This requires tapping into the coil trigger wires which the JB3 doesn't do.

There are no other way to actively control spark timing. Period.

Sure, one can indirectly influence timing by manipulating IAT, coolant, oil, etc,. temperatures. This will forced the ECU to operate in different parts of the primary spark advance table (or in another "high det" table). Much like what the JB2 did with a switch to ground and a few resistors. But this is referred to as "influence" not "control" since you are completely dependent upon the factory ECU's compensation tables which can (and do) differ with various progman software updates. So basically, you cannot induce a X degree retard when RPM is Z, IAT is Y and RPM is Q.

Looking at the hardware design of the JB3, I can tell that the intention as to adjust timing the same way it adjusts the wastegate signal-- by using the PWM output of the processor to pull it to ground. This didn't work because the timing signal is much more "dense" (58 teeth per one engine rotation) and the factory ECU is completely intolerant to the loss of data/teeth. The engine will simply shut off if a tooth is lost, replicated properly or implausibly placed with relation to the cam angle sensors. Can't treat it like a wastegate signal, that's for sure.

So I'd bet that this is the reason Terry finally admitted to abandoning this approach as it was impossible to do with his limited hardware (no signal filtering, no crystal oscillator for time references, etc,.)

So is he controlling timing some other way that has yet to be discovered by anyone else? Or is he relying on the factory knock control system to do all/most of the work? That's the question. One I'm sure scalbert is capable of answering with some more testing.

Shiv

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by lawdude

Extreme - I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

I expected that from a pupil of Justice Stewart.

[Turbo>NA]

Im so lost right now, I thought he OP was going to do other tests like acceleration, etc...?

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by sflgator

In the interest of this very important thread (which I hope is not closed), I have deleted my last post. I do agree that the PROcede v3 and JB3 products should do ALL the talking with Scalbert's findings...let's carry on then.

Why stop with just the last post, how about all your posts.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

Having said that, do you see a way where the JB3 can use the same method that the DME uses, but in a safe manner?

Isn't it true..if the JB3 did not control timing then wouldn't we be pinging like crazy at the track?

IMO, there is some sort of timing control whether it be direct or indirect. And no, I do not believe it is solely based on the DME's knock control system which would not be good. It would be a more indirect method considering we know what I/O are used and I have a couple of suspicions I will be looking at soon.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Turbo>NA

Im so lost right now, I thought he OP was going to do other tests like acceleration, etc...?

That is in an upcoming test. Dynos will also be done at a later date.

[scalbert]

And lets please stop with the hearsay or assumptions. Lets discuss what we know for sure now and keep it focused.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by scalbert

That is in an upcoming test. Dynos will also be done at a later date.

Scalbert

What other tests do you have in store for us? Is there anyway a Dinan flash can be incorporated into the mix?

[Turbo>NA]

Originally Posted by scalbert

That is in an upcoming test. Dynos will also be done at a later date.

Thanks man. Thats more understanding

[Ramos]

Message to Shiv from a potential customer still on the fence

While everything you just said may be true.. Coming from you it just sounds defensive..
Seriously man, if your product is that much superior, just let IT do the talking for you.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by scalbert

IMO, there is some sort of timing control whether it be direct or indirect. And no, I do not believe it is solely based on the DME's knock control system which would not be good. It would be a more indirect method considering we know what I/O are used and I have a couple of suspicions I will be looking at soon.

Alright. Thanks; that's what I suspected.
IMO, I really wouldn't understand why Terry would overlook such an important component like this.

I have never seen a million dollars, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Scalbert

What other tests do you have in store for us? Is there anyway a Dinan flash can be incorporated into the mix?

On road data acquisition is the next installment. That will be followed by dyno testing and potentially a subjective test by a semi-journalist.

Dinan would not lend its self to the next set of tests as wire splicing will be involved. But the dyno test could be if there is someone in the Atlanta area will to show.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by scalbert

On road data acquisition is the next installment. That will be followed by dyno testing and potentially a subjective test by a semi-journalist.

Dinan would not lend its self to the next set of tests as wire splicing will be involved. But the dyno test could be if there is someone in the Atlanta area will to show.

This is a good point.
Do you really think that Dinan would be kind enough to let us know how they are controling timing with their program?

You did a great job Steve! (if that's your name, I saw other people calling you that lol)
I'm not too interested in the dynos since I've pretty much been there but I can't wait to see some road test data!

[BMW_TT]

Steve should be a technical moderator on this forum.

When, or if, Terry provides you with the information on timing control, can you disclose if it does or does not control timing? Basically a yes or no answer. We do not need the details since that is BMS's work.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

You did a great job Steve! (if that's your name, I saw other people calling you that lol)

Yep, that is my name. Bet you can't guess my last name. I'm not too imaginative with usernames.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by BMW_TT

When, or if, Terry provides you with the information on timing control, can you disclose if it does or does not control timing? Basically a yes or no answer. We do not need the details since that is BMS's work.

Yes, I will. But it will be under my own investigation as it will not be disclosed from BMS.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Yep, that is my name. Bet you can't guess my last name. I'm not too imaginative with usernames.

Johnson?

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Sniz

Johnson?

Not quite.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Why stop with just the last post, how about all your posts.

I disagree; I believe I have been very diplomatic with my recent posts in the past several weeks. In fact, I have restrained myself given the things that have been said about me on another so called BMW Enthusiast Forum. The things that the other Forum owner/moderator allows (and encourages) his members to say over there are just deplorable.

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Yes, I will. But it will be under my own investigation as it will not be disclosed from BMS.

If you find out on your own without help from others there would be no legal or eithical problem with publishing your findings.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by lawdude

If you find out on your own without help from others there would be no legal or eithical problem with publishing your findings.