[Maestro]

Originally Posted by bmwzimmer

Interesting but not always true. I used to work for a company that manufactures OE accessories to Various Domestic and international Car manufacturers and the Japanese quality standards were always much more stringent than the German and American OE's.

I did not say they do not have high quality standard, I just said they use the 2 to 3 yrs in their market to figure out what needs to be need fixed. Trust me I understand quality and how to measure it. The problem is many time with a new design you do not know what all can go wrong or what process controls that are needed until you build enought to see what are the possible variation. The Japanese are much better at focusing on eliminating variation. But if they did not have the extra time and had to put cars on the market in the US as soon as every other company they would not be any better.

All other companies build a few protos, test the hell out of them try and find as many problems as possible until they say it is good enough and put in on the market. Then built lots of them and begin to see what they missed. Japanese isolate these problems first in Japan then release it to the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

Dude, your logic doesn't make sense. Korea has a very closed market. There are 100% import duties on foreign vehicles. The lack of competition disincents the Korean manufacturers from producing quality vehicles. As a result of the closed market, their cars suck.

Economics 101.

I was not talking about the Korea, they are like GM have not figured out the quality thing yet.

My point was the Japanese used thier closed market to their advantage, the Koreans have have not, arguable you could say the Germans and French have not either. (Don't tell me that the german and french markets are not closed, I know they are not, but most American companies can not really sell in those countries at a competive price do to all the government support those local companies get.)

But Japan is not totally closed either since you can buy US cars there too, but Japanese think US cars are even worse then the Japanese cars which is not totally true. They do see the German cars are being really well made.

The Japanese have great quality products no doubt, but that is only because they use their home market to their advantage. However, you hardly see them innovate a new idea, they just improve on what is already there.

[CoralRedPlz]

However, you hardly see them innovate a new idea, they just improve on what is already there.

Hi Sony!

[mesier1111]

Originally Posted by teknochild

i dont care, the more these g35s think they have on us the better when i rocket past them with a shit eating grin on my face

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by Maestro

I did not say they do not have high quality standard, I just said they use the 2 to 3 yrs in their market to figure out what needs to be need fixed. Trust me I understand quality and how to measure it. The problem is many time with a new design you do not know what all can go wrong or what process controls that are needed until you build enought to see what are the possible variation. The Japanese are much better at focusing on eliminating variation. But if they did not have the extra time and had to put cars on the market in the US as soon as every other company they would not be any better.

All other companies build a few protos, test the hell out of them try and find as many problems as possible until they say it is good enough and put in on the market. Then built lots of them and begin to see what they missed. Japanese isolate these problems first in Japan then release it to the rest of the world.



I was not talking about the Korea, they are like GM have not figured out the quality thing yet.

My point was the Japanese used thier closed market to their advantage, the Koreans have have not, arguable you could say the Germans and French have not either. (Don't tell me that the german and french markets are not closed, I know they are not, but most American companies can not really sell in those countries at a competive price do to all the government support those local companies get.)

But Japan is not totally closed either since you can buy US cars there too, but Japanese think US cars are even worse then the Japanese cars which is not totally true. They do see the German cars are being really well made.

The Japanese have great quality products no doubt, but that is only because they use their home market to their advantage. However, you hardly see them innovate a new idea, they just improve on what is already there.

No, that is incorrect. You claim that a closed market allows the Japanese to improve their cars while in this closed market.

Korea is effectively a closed market with their 100% tariffs on imports. Their cars have been crappy as a result of that. They didn't have to figure out quality. Why compete when your competitors sell their products at double the cost? Once they began exporting their products, the closed market and lack of competition associated with it resulted in their Hyundai Excels getting creamed on the free market.

In other words, a closed market makes products WORSE, not better.

I guess I'm not clear why you believe that a closed market makes for better goods.

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

No, that is incorrect. You claim that a closed market allows the Japanese to improve their cars while in this closed market.

Korea is effectively a closed market with their 100% tariffs on imports. Their cars have been crappy as a result of that. They didn't have to figure out quality. Why compete when your competitors sell their products at double the cost? Once they began exporting their products, the closed market and lack of competition associated with it resulted in their Hyundai Excels getting creamed on the free market.

In other words, a closed market makes products WORSE, not better.

I guess I'm not clear why you believe that a closed market makes for better goods.

You drew the wrong conclusion from my statements. I never said the closed market makes a better product. I said that Japanese companies used their closed markets to make a better product.

There is a big difference in what you thought and what I said.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by Maestro

You drew the wrong conclusion from my statements. I never said the closed market makes a better product. I said that Japanese companies used their closed markets to make a better product.

There is a big difference in what you thought and what I said.

If you are correct, then every economist in the world is wrong. And the Japanese are now acting in a way that is contrary to every single historical analysis of closed economies.

If your claim that the Japanese create a closed market and then subsequently improve their products as a result of it, they are the most irrational people in the world. To provide a corollary: There is a so-called "chicken tax" in America on foreign produced trucks. That's why American trucks ruled for so long and today's foreign trucks (read Toyota) are manufactured in America.

I guess us Americans are rational though, because in that closed market, we produced the crappiest trucks in the world. Why compete when you don't have to?

If I'm understanding you wrong, I'd like to know. If you're right, you might be on your way to a Nobel prize.

[DrM]

Originally Posted by Maestro

You drew the wrong conclusion from my statements. I never said the closed market makes a better product. I said that Japanese companies used their closed markets to make a better product.

There is a big difference in what you thought and what I said.

I think what Maestro is trying to say is this: The Japanese introduce their products into their home market before introducing them abroad. This gives them a model year (or two or three) to work out the bugs before the rest of the world sees the product. (Think of it as a beta testing period)

If this were true, this would make the Japanese products seem very high quality when introduced abroad versus other companies that release a new product without the "beta" period in the home market.

The Japanese auto manufacturers may or may not do this. If it were true, however, this would give the perception of having fewer defects in the other markets (assuming that they fix the problems they find in the domestic market before introducing the product abroad.)

In short, *if* the Japanese car companies use their home market for beta testing products, this could help to explain their higher perceived quality abroad.

leftcoastman is also correct. Generally open markets encourage competition, which increases the quality of the products in that market (or puts the poor quality companies out of business -- GM, Ford, Chrysler...).

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by DrM

I think what Maestro is trying to say is this: The Japanese introduce their products into their home market before introducing them abroad. This gives them a model year (or two or three) to work out the bugs before the rest of the world sees the product. (Think of it as a beta testing period)

If this were true, this would make the Japanese products seem very high quality when introduced abroad versus other companies that release a new product without the "beta" period in the home market.

The Japanese auto manufacturers may or may not do this. If it were true, however, this would give the perception of having fewer defects in the other markets (assuming that they fix the problems they find in the domestic market before introducing the product abroad.)

In short, *if* the Japanese car companies use their home market for beta testing products, this could help to explain their higher perceived quality abroad.

leftcoastman is also correct. Generally open markets encourage competition, which increases the quality of the products in that market (or puts the poor quality companies out of business -- GM, Ford, Chrysler...).

DrM, gets it and understands and Leftcoastman you would if you spent time in Japan, which I have. You hardly see any USA products or names there and their economy it hurting because of it and the lack of competition.

As americans we have choice and better products because those who fail to meet customers needs eventually die.

I also spent time in China which is a closed market too from things being imported, however if a company wants to set up business in the country you can sell your products at a competive price. When I was there I was surprised how many Cadillac were on the road there. The Chinese rahter buy form the non-chinese company since the quality is better, time will tell if that will change.

DrM, did a nice job of summarizing what I said, that if any company could "Beta test" their product to 2 to 3 yrs in a market that could not buy a competing product they will have a better product for the market where competition does exists.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by Maestro

DrM, gets it and understands and Leftcoastman you would if you spent time in Japan, which I have. You hardly see any USA products or names there and their economy it hurting because of it and the lack of competition.

As americans we have choice and better products because those who fail to meet customers needs eventually die.

I also spent time in China which is a closed market too from things being imported, however if a company wants to set up business in the country you can sell your products at a competive price. When I was there I was surprised how many Cadillac were on the road there. The Chinese rahter buy form the non-chinese company since the quality is better, time will tell if that will change.

DrM, did a nice job of summarizing what I said, that if any company could "Beta test" their product to 2 to 3 yrs in a market that could not buy a competing product they will have a better product for the market where competition does exists.

Ok your incorrect use of terminology confused me. I understand your point now, while still disagreeing with it.

Indulge me for a moment. If this strategy is so incredibly successful, why don't the American (or European) companies do the same? The American truck companies had the same opportunity since up until recently, they ruled the fullsized truck market (due to the chicken tax). They had plenty of time to "beta test in a closed market" yet American fullsized trucks still lag in quality.

Also, I don't know the answer to this, but is Japan truly a closed market? Unless there are incredibly high import tariffs, I can't imagine why a Japanese consumer would purchase what you imply are crappy first-generation Japanese vehicles when there is competition from foreign cars.

EVEN if there were high import taxes and therefore Japan was truly a closed market, why are Korean cars (with their closed system) so incredibly unreliable? Surely, they would have taken advantage of the closed system like the Japanese did.

I'm not attacking you, I'm actually curious how, what I think your argument is, only applies to Japan and not to other countries in similar circumstances.

[DrM]

Each company competes based on their unique strengths and the market characteristics. If you are able to offer a high quality product at a price the market will pay, then focus on quality. If you can't offer a competitive quality product, then you typically compete based on price (or features or find a product niche).

The Japanese companies seem to be following a strategy to sell high quality products at a price that is acceptable to the consumer. If the strategy is to offer high quality products, then "beta testing" your products in a small market (the Japanese one) would make sense as long as the profits from the other markets outweigh the lost profits in your domestic market.

The Koreans seem to be following a low price strategy. They typically haven't been able to offer a car that can compete based on quality (nor typically have the Chinese) with the top quality car companies like Toyota. If your goal is to introduce a low price product, the quality of the product typically suffers. If you are competing based on price, then beta testing in the home market would simply delay the launch of your product to the large (and more profitable) markets so you wouldn't do it.

In the long run, competing based upon price doesn't work. There will always be some other place that can manufacture a product more cheaply. Ultimately, all companies move toward improving their product (or finding a niche) so they can increase their profit margins.

As an example, the Japanese car companies had very poor quality when they first introduced cars in the US. Over time, the quality improved. The Korean car companies are seeing the same thing now. The new Sonata is vastly better according to the car magazines. In short, the Korean car companies and the Japanese car companies behave differently because they are trying to accomplish different things.

[iatacs19]

they should test them both 328i and 335i. Then just point out that the 335i is more expensive. Plain and simple.