[335dFan]

After putting 8,749 miles on the OEM RFT ContiPro Contact SSR Grand Touring All Season 225/45/17 tire, I changed to an 18" lighter set of wheels and tires (Apex ARC-8 and Michelin PSS 235/40 tires). The OEM were OK and I could have lived with them; I sold them to a local BMW owner. But the new, lighter wheel/tire combo made a huge difference for both daily driving and the track. I did one track session with the OEM setup and one track session with the new setup. The grip, noise, harshness, all attributes that I can think of are better with the PSS. I have no doubt that RFT technology will improve over time, and will cross that decision bridge when the time comes, likely about 1.5 or two years from now. For now I carry a portable air compressor, slime, and plugs all the time in the trunk, and for longer trips I put a BMW spare in the trunk.

[Pierre Louis]

Originally Posted by DnA Diesel

Yes it does.

Every number you've provided shows heavier RFTs than non-RFT equivalent. Even the 3rd gen RE-050a Potenza RFT is 27 lbs for a 255/35-18, compared to 25 lbs for the same size PSS. That's still 2 lbs, or 8% lighter, and will certainly make for less pounding and better adherence of the tire contact area to the pavement.

I'm up for being proven wrong, so look forward to being shown a 255/35-18 RFT that is at least as light as a similarly sized PSS...

Point being, while BMW may have designed the suspension to tolerate as best as possible the heavier weights and stiffer sidewalls of RFTs and the impact on unsprung weight and associated influence on handling, non-RFTs appear to many here (hence the numerous recommendations) to be worthy of the move from RFT to non-RFT.


Regards
D.

The equivalent Potenzas, RFT and non-RFT tires weigh the same.

[DnA Diesel]

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

The equivalent Potenzas, RFT and non-RFT tires weigh the same.

You could re-read as well.

My point was not at all whether Bridgestone's RFTs and their own non-RFTs weight the same, that being heavier than other manufacturers; it was there are other choices out there that are non-RFT and have notably more desirable handling characteristics, both due to the reduced unsprung weight and the less rigid sidewall.

It is not just because a Michelin PS2 ZP is four pounds heavier than an equivalent-sized PSS, that I would continue to select a non-RFT tire. They are a harsher ride, no matter how new they are. That stiff sidewall also translates into less tell as the car approaches a lateral friction limit.

I'm not sure if the rest of the non-RFT guys agree, but I'm happy you find RFTs to your liking just as much as I do non-RFTs to mine. The intent was to provide the OP with some thoughts and impressions of optional tires that he could consider as he chooses his next set of tires. I have heard few if any people complain about the PSS.

Regards
D.

[GreekboyD]

I have run flats for the winter but would never run them in the summer.

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by DnA Diesel

...
It is not just because a Michelin PS2 ZP is four pounds heavier than an equivalent-sized PSS, that I would continue to select a non-RFT tire...

A little clarification (if we're being precise): The difference of 4 pounds is for the rears of a sport package. The difference of the front tires is 2 pounds.

IMHO, the differences are so slight that you won't feel it in most everyday driving (the exception being NYC or equally pot-holed streets.) Racecourse where split seconds make the difference, yes.

[Pierre Louis]

Originally Posted by DnA Diesel

You could re-read as well.

My point was not at all whether Bridgestone's RFTs and their own non-RFTs weight the same, that being heavier than other manufacturers; it was there are other choices out there that are non-RFT and have notably more desirable handling characteristics, both due to the reduced unsprung weight and the less rigid sidewall.

It is not just because a Michelin PS2 ZP is four pounds heavier than an equivalent-sized PSS, that I would continue to select a non-RFT tire. They are a harsher ride, no matter how new they are. That stiff sidewall also translates into less tell as the car approaches a lateral friction limit.

I'm not sure if the rest of the non-RFT guys agree, but I'm happy you find RFTs to your liking just as much as I do non-RFTs to mine. The intent was to provide the OP with some thoughts and impressions of optional tires that he could consider as he chooses his next set of tires. I have heard few if any people complain about the PSS.

Regards
D.

Unfortunately, changing the subject doesn't fix what you said about "equivalent non-RFT's being lighter" which is flat out wrong in the case of Bridgestones. I never said I had a preference either, (I even said that PSS are considered the ultimate tire and didn't disagree with it) which is another thing you are making up to prove your argument.

[Pierre Louis]

I believe most racing tires have stiffer sidewalls than regular passenger tires, so the argument that RFT's are necessarily of lower performance may not be valid.

See this Tire Guidelines from Yokahama USA as an example:

The sheer grip is determined by the tire contact patch and its compound as well as the surface it is resting on. The wheel size do not make drastic changes to grip necessarily, but rather it does make tire construction and behavior differ, as tire's sidewall characteristics change greatly from a 14 through 17 inch size (rim diameter)

Driver's perception of how a tire feels is determined mainly by tire construction, namely the sidewall... Generally, the harder the sidewall, the more "train-tracking effect" you will feel with an added feeling of directness and peakiness of grip (more positive feel but at the same time, more difficult at limits). Softer sidewalls have more comfort in character and the steering information softer but much more forgiving at limit.

Some of the true high performance and ALL competition tires have stiffer sidewalls, so the tire wear is more even between shoulders and center as well as giving the driver most feedback. However, these tires also have higher grip compounds and make novice drivers really feel nervous with snappy, unforgiving characteristics. Naturally, its a very questionable choice if you had lots of "drifting in mind" (smile)...

On the other hand, the more general use high performance grade tires have softer sidewalls, for easier controls at limits (though lower limits), and less nervous behavior traveling the long highway stretches.

There are exceptions however... Some tires are designed to be abused for fun... Though not necessarily expensive or competition worthy for sheer lap times, these tires have longer lasting compounds and provide lots of abusive driving without giving your wallet a big dent. These "fun" tires as I call them have stiff sidewalls so even drifters can wear them and make every millimeter of the tread count towards fun per dollar. My list of "FUN" tires include Falken Azenis, Kumho Ecsta 712, Dunlop Sport W-10, and Bridgestone RE730. The shoulders of these tires don't roll off too much so contact patch stay stable and wears evenly. Reasonably priced and very well matched to 4A-GE's power and MR2/Corolla's weight.

Choosing tires that are lower in profile within the same product tires naturally will stiffen the sidewall. And thus you will tend to feel more instability in traveling in a straight line as road irregularities affect the car more...if that bothers you, then select something with a softer sidewall.

Lastly, though most important... always chose your tires according to you specific use. If extended mileage is accumulated in your daily travel, it is usually a very wise and likely economical idea to own 2 or even 3 different sets of tires and wheels for competition, city use, and abuse and fun. As there is no such thing as the BEST tire for everything...tires can only rated in specific categories and all other areas are a balance of compromises.

Its very doubtful that I would buy an RFT to race with, but I suppose it might be more convenient for beginner DE depending on circumstances and how the "racing" is done. It also wouldn't surprise me if a high performance tire has stiff sidewalls, especially one with a low profile, and would also qualify as an RFT.

[DnA Diesel]

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

Unfortunately, changing the subject doesn't fix what you said about "equivalent non-RFT's being lighter" which is flat out wrong in the case of Bridgestones. I never said I had a preference either, (I even said that PSS are considered the ultimate tire and didn't disagree with it) which is another thing you are making up to prove your argument.

Changing the subject?

Let's see...

The original poster, CT_335D asks in post #1:

Originally Posted by CT_335D

...My question is since the car came with RFT and the suspension was calibrated for these tires, could I replace them with regular tires without affecting the performance of the car?

In post #11 I provide my input to CT_335D's question noting my greater preference of the non-RFT Michelin PSS over the OEM RE050a RFT.

Then later in the conversation (#17) you come in referring to what Tirerack.com survey contributors are saying about the 3rd gen Potenza RFT, and then form an argument structure over the 3rd Gen Potenza RFT being the same weight as a Potenza non-RFT, neither of which (the RE960 or RE970) were original fitment for a 2009 335d (CT_335D's car, as he notes in his first post). The non-original fitment tires you selected are actually heavier than the original RE050a RFTs fitted to the car, so even that comparison amongst all-Bridgestone products has little basis.

So...I provided my input to the OP in answer (from one person's perspective) to his query about potential reduction of performance not being an issue switching from RFTs to non-RFTs.

It seems you profer survey results without your own apparent experience with these tires (do you have RE960s or RE970s on your 2011?) Have you replaced your tires yet, and if so, with what RFTs? That information might be of use to CT_335D in his selection of a replacement tire.

Regards
D.

[335dFan]

"...Tis the season to be jolly, fa la la la la, la la la la..."

[Pierre Louis]

My car still has the original Bridgestone Potenza RE050A I RFT and they are making more noise and are harsher than when new. These tires apparently have stiffer sidewalls than Michelin PSS. I've read extensively on Tire Rack the opinions of those that switched to PSS and the softer sidewall helps the ride and grip, but you may not have the "right now" steering response of a stiffer sidewall tire. The RE050A "I" RFT was said to be better riding than the "non I" but I don't know.

I am getting 40,000 miles from my sport package Bridgestone RFT's and have used them on the track once with very good performance for my beginner level. They did not lose grip at 108 mph on a long bend and felt very well balanced. They also allowed me to "feel" that they were near the limit in a corner.

Just knowing that the 2014 M5 is fitted with PSS's as OEM may be enough for me to go with them, I don't know.

Correction: the 2011 M3 was not fitted with PSS's as OEM.

[prosport]

I have 2011d with sports package that came in with pas 225 front and 255 rear. drives great in the summer/dry. totally paralyzed on ice/snow. I want to get a dedicated winter/snow tires. Any recommendations for RFTs and will i have to do a sensor relearn for the new tires? I just bought this car with a 18K miles on it. I appreciate your help. Thanks

[335dFan]

Originally Posted by prosport

I have 2011d with sports package that came in with pas 225 front and 255 rear. drives great in the summer/dry. totally paralyzed on ice/snow. I want to get a dedicated winter/snow tires. Any recommendations for RFTs and will i have to do a sensor relearn for the new tires? I just bought this car with a 18K miles on it. I appreciate your help. Thanks

I live out near Annapolis. I don't have staggered setup, but what I did was use Blizzak LM-25 RFTs on my OEM wheels, and then I put some Michelin PSS on new, lighter wheels. At first I swapped the TPMS sensors from the OEM wheels to the new wheels, but then I later bought new (and expensive) sensors for the OEM wheels. I didn't want to be swapping tires and sensors every season. It's not real good for the tires. So at the moment I am running the Blizzaks on the OEM wheels. They seem to work OK around here. Frankly I don't drive the car as much when there is a lot of stuff including salt on the roads. But I have the luxury of choice in that respect.

The relearning process is fairly easy, but I think the shop had to do something to the sensor anyway when it installed the new ones on my OEM wheels. After that the car iDrive just tells you what to do and you do it. Not too dramatic.

[prosport]

Originally Posted by 335dFan

I live out near Annapolis. I don't have staggered setup, but what I did was use Blizzak LM-25 RFTs on my OEM wheels, and then I put some Michelin PSS on new, lighter wheels. At first I swapped the TPMS sensors from the OEM wheels to the new wheels, but then I later bought new (and expensive) sensors for the OEM wheels. I didn't want to be swapping tires and sensors every season. It's not real good for the tires. So at the moment I am running the Blizzaks on the OEM wheels. They seem to work OK around here. Frankly I don't drive the car as much when there is a lot of stuff including salt on the roads. But I have the luxury of choice in that respect.

The relearning process is fairly easy, but I think the shop had to do something to the sensor anyway when it installed the new ones on my OEM wheels. After that the car iDrive just tells you what to do and you do it. Not too dramatic.

Thank you so much for the reply and info. I like your setup of a dedicated winter tires and i think it makes the swap much easier. I will probably leave the PSS on the OEM wheels and buy a Used rims and new blizzaks and sensors on the new set. I have to buy 2 different set for the front than the back i guess to match the OEM setup for the winter set!
Did you go with the same exact size of rims and tires with the set of rims and the blizzak tires you bought? Also can i ask you what kind of sensors and where did you buy them. I just moved near the Baltimore area and i have no idea where to go about buying parts in this area. Again thanks a lot for all your help. Much appreciated.

[335dFan]

Originally Posted by prosport

Did you go with the same exact size of rims and tires with the set of rims and the blizzak tires you bought?

The Blizzaks are on my OEM wheels: 17" and the tire size was the same as my OEM tires 225/45-17. I have a vehicle that was bought as a non-sports suspension. My new wheels are 18" and the Michelin PSS tire size is 235/40-18.

Originally Posted by prosport

Also can i ask you what kind of sensors and where did you buy them.

I would suggest dealing online or by phone with getbmwparts.com. They are an online only offshoot of BMW of Silver Spring, the old Tischer BMW. BMW parts and they are very good to work with. You can probably get sensors elsewhere, but that's where I got mine. You just tell them your car info and they'll give you the right sensor.

[prosport]

Originally Posted by 335dFan

The Blizzaks are on my OEM wheels: 17" and the tire size was the same as my OEM tires 225/45-17. I have a vehicle that was bought as a non-sports suspension. My new wheels are 18" and the Michelin PSS tire size is 235/40-18.




I would suggest dealing online or by phone with getbmwparts.com. They are an online only offshoot of BMW of Silver Spring, the old Tischer BMW. BMW parts and they are very good to work with. You can probably get sensors elsewhere, but that's where I got mine. You just tell them your car info and they'll give you the right sensor.

Thank you so much for your help and for the info i will try the getbmw.com.
cheers

[CT_335D]

Originally Posted by remi

I have the 335d w/o sport package so I replaced the RFT Contis with the Michelin Primacy MXM4 RFT from TireRack and they're much quieter than the Continental were and handle just about the same as far as I can tell. For the price, you can't beat them.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....r=Base%20Model

So I decided to get either the Michelin Primacy MXM4 ZP run flat or the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 run flat. Any thoughts? The Pilot Sport is only $31 more per tire and have about the same treadwear at around 500.

[Hoooper]

Originally Posted by 335dFan

The Blizzaks are on my OEM wheels: 17" and the tire size was the same as my OEM tires 225/45-17. I have a vehicle that was bought as a non-sports suspension. My new wheels are 18" and the Michelin PSS tire size is 235/40-18.

How are you liking the arc-8s? I just suffered through my second cracked stock wheel (type 195) in about a month and decided that was enough so I picked up the ec-7s. I looked at the arc-8s but they didn't have the right offset I didn't think for a 9.5" rear wheel, what spec rear wheel did you pick up?

[335dFan]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

How are you liking the arc-8s? I just suffered through my second cracked stock wheel (type 195) in about a month and decided that was enough so I picked up the ec-7s. I looked at the arc-8s but they didn't have the right offset I didn't think for a 9.5" rear wheel, what spec rear wheel did you pick up?

I like the ARC-8 a lot. It is lightweight and looks good. I thought the EC-7 looked a bit nicer, but VAC and I decided the ARC-8. I run a square configuration: wheels are ET31 18x8.5 all the way around and tires are 235/40-18 Michelin PSS. Sometimes I think I want to go a little bigger, but they look fine to me, they are wearing well, and they are great both on the public roads and at the track.

[Hoooper]

Originally Posted by 335dFan

I like the ARC-8 a lot. It is lightweight and looks good. I thought the EC-7 looked a bit nicer, but VAC and I decided the ARC-8. I run a square configuration: wheels are ET31 18x8.5 all the way around and tires are 235/40-18 Michelin PSS. Sometimes I think I want to go a little bigger, but they look fine to me, they are wearing well, and they are great both on the public roads and at the track.

Oh you went square, makes sense for the arc-8 then. They are lighter than the ec-7. I'm putting 265s in the rear though that's my problem.

[rogerdiaz]

I have the cheapest tires generals g-max AS-03. They are still better than stock run flats. ride quality and handling.

[geko29]

Originally Posted by 335dFan

I live out near Annapolis. I don't have staggered setup, but what I did was use Blizzak LM-25 RFTs on my OEM wheels, and then I put some Michelin PSS on new, lighter wheels. At first I swapped the TPMS sensors from the OEM wheels to the new wheels, but then I later bought new (and expensive) sensors for the OEM wheels. I didn't want to be swapping tires and sensors every season. It's not real good for the tires. So at the moment I am running the Blizzaks on the OEM wheels. They seem to work OK around here. Frankly I don't drive the car as much when there is a lot of stuff including salt on the roads. But I have the luxury of choice in that respect.

I did almost the same thing. Blizzak LM-60s (non-RFT) on the stock 17s in the stock size, then 19x8.5/9.5 Alufelgen SR-71 wrapped in staggered PSS for the summer. Put a new set of TPMS sensors in the new wheels right away, so it's just a quick swap when the temperature changes.

I actually drive my car MORE in the winter, since it drives better in the snow than either the RX350 or Murano. So any time the weather's shitty, we take the d. My wife even makes me drive her to work a few days a week. That said, I can't wait to put the summers back on. 500lbft and 235mm tires do not mix.

[Hoooper]

Ended up going with continental dw for mine in the 235/40 r18 and 265/35 r18 flavor. They have been good so far, quieter and smoother ride than the stock runflats. I expect to lose some turn in feel because of the softer sidewall but they feel like they will still provide much better actual cornering grip and stability.