[chili36]

Originally Posted by Ingeniator

As someone not interested in either I don't really care. Why don't you wait for that data if your interested in one of them.

Didn't think so.
No interest in either one. I have already made a choice on the kit I will be purchasing.

[Ingeniator]

Originally Posted by chili36

Didn't think so.
No interest in either one. I have already made a choice on the kit I will be purchasing.

Seen lots of bashing from you but no vote towards a kit. What one have you decided on.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

Stoplight to stoplight in a city, for sure. But let the car stretch its legs and the curve of stock frames isn't in the same zip code of fun.

I agree 100% with what you said.

['___']

Originally Posted by chili36

Data to back this up?

There is currently no data for any of the kits or even stock frame twins that shows the SAME tune run back to back to back with only hardware switches made between runs. If that's what you are asking for, then I've never seen it for any platform. If you just want a reason for what I said, you can start with THIS

Originally Posted by chili36

Didn't think so.
No interest in either one. I have already made a choice on the kit I will be purchasing.

If you've already made up your mind, and it's neither of the kits you are griping about, why are you making such a stink? What dog do you have in this fight?

[chili36]

Originally Posted by Ingeniator

Seen lots of bashing from you but no vote towards a kit. What one have you decided on.

Bashing? Or are you a little on the sensitive side?
Please show me a post where I am bashing a kit.

[Ingeniator]

Originally Posted by chili36

Bashing? Or are you a little on the sensitive side?
Please show me a post where I am bashing a kit.

Ok maybe bashing is excessive I believe skepticism fits well. If you need documented dynos and comparisons between headers and turbos to compare things. You'll always be behind the curve on the platform. I can say as someone who deals with industrial systems and have had lots of experience with engines that certain design considerations are beneficial.

[chili36]

Originally Posted by '___'

There is currently no data for any of the kits or even stock frame twins that shows the SAME tune run back to back to back with only hardware switches made between runs. If that's what you are asking for, then I've never seen it for any platform. If you just want a reason for what I said, you can start with THIS



If you've already made up your mind, and it's neither of the kits you are griping about, why are you making such a stink? What dog do you have in this fight?

Were you not the one that said this.. And had no real data to back this up?

Originally Posted by '___'

the angle of each merge looks less perpendicular, which is where the big benefit would be.

Is it a crime to ask for data on a kit you are defending blindly?

FYI I have a deposit down for the VM kit.

[chili36]

Originally Posted by Ingeniator

Ok maybe bashing is excessive I believe skepticism fits well. If you need documented dynos and comparisons between headers and turbos to compare things. You'll always be behind the curve on the platform. I can say as someone who deals with industrial systems and have had lots of experience with engines that certain design considerations are beneficial.

Neither fits well.

Asking for performance data should be taken as either bashing or skepticism.

[Ingeniator]

Originally Posted by chili36

Neither fits well.

Asking for performance data should be taken as either bashing or skepticism.

From unreleased kits we don't have access to... Right your a genius. We gave you our opinions based on pictures. If you don't want to use those opinions and rely on hard data that will likely never be released that is your choice(skepticism) .

[chili36]

Originally Posted by Ingeniator

From unreleased kits we don't have access to... Right your a genius. We gave you our opinions based on pictures. If you don't want to use those opinions and rely on hard data that will likely never be released that is your choice(skepticism) .

Likely never be released? lol really? why not?
So basically you just confirmed that you are blindly backing a kit and are pissed off because I question their performance.

oh look that kit looks pretty it must be the shit! lol!

['___']

Originally Posted by '___'

the angle of each merge looks less perpendicular, which is where the big benefit would be.

Originally Posted by chili36

Were you not the one that said this.. And had no real data to back this up?


Is it a crime to ask for data on a kit you are defending blindly?

FYI I have a deposit down for the VM kit.

Running any fluid, which air is, at a shallower angle will always be more flow friendly. The more "inline" the two flow streams are when they merge, the less turbulence they will create. Turbulence slows down flow, which in a turbo manifold would equate to slower spool, higher back pressure, higher egt's, less top end power, etc. When you look at the pictures of the two manifolds in question, one appears to have longer primaries with less angle in the merge collectors leading to the secondaries. The pictures are all the proof you need.

If you want an example, it would be equivalent to why you don't place wastegates at 45 degrees or greater from the exhaust flow path, if you can help it.

Is this what you were looking for?

['___']

Originally Posted by chili36

Likely never be released? lol really? why not?
So basically you just confirmed that you are blindly backing a kit and are pissed off because I question their performance.

oh look that kit looks pretty it must be the shit! lol!

His opinion is based on fluid dynamics and thermofluid theory. What is your counter argument based on?

[chili36]

Originally Posted by '___'

His opinion is based on fluid dynamics and thermofluid theory. What is your counter argument based on?

my argument is based on NO DATA from these kits and people blindly backing a kit.

[chili36]

Originally Posted by '___'

Running any fluid, which air is, at a shallower angle will always be more flow friendly. The more "inline" the two flow streams are when they merge, the less turbulence they will create. Turbulence slows down flow, which in a turbo manifold would equate to slower spool, higher back pressure, higher egt's, less top end power, etc. When you look at the pictures of the two manifolds in question, one appears to have longer primaries with less angle in the merge collectors leading to the secondaries. The pictures are all the proof you need.

If you want an example, it would be equivalent to why you don't place wastegates at 45 degrees or greater from the exhaust flow path, if you can help it.

Is this what you were looking for?

No.

again actual kit data please. until then your argument is invalid.

['___']

Originally Posted by chili36

my argument is based on NO DATA from these kits and people blindly backing a kit.

So, what exactly are you saying about these kits with no data from the manufacturer of the kit then?

Being able to determine if something will flow well doesn't require data. Yes, data helps, but yes, data is required when making iterations to a design when the intent is to maximize flow as much as possible. I highly doubt any company will ever show you design data, whether they have it or not...it's not really in their best interest from a PI standpoint. But to say NO DATA is like arguing with me about you falling back to the ground if you jump up. Sure, unless I have you jump so you can see that you'll fall back down, I have "no data", but that doesn't change the physics behind WHY you will fall back down. If you subject two manifolds to the exact same conditions, the manifold with a smoother, shallower angle transition will have more laminar flow EVERY TIME. It's just the way it is. If you put a disruption in a flow path, you slow things down. That's what happens when the merge occurs at a steeper angle.



edit per your above comment. To tell me my argument is invalid is obtuse, childish and completely ridiculous. Manifold flow data and turbo capabilities are what count when it comes to a turbo kit. Power can be made or lost based on the tune. A superior kit could make less power than a crappy kit if the crappy kit has a superb tune and the better kit has a crap tune. Clearly you are refusing to learn anything from the information being offered to you by at least two people on the board that have already either been there/done that or in the process of building. Have a good day bud.

[chili36]

Originally Posted by '___'

So, what exactly are you saying about these kits with no data from the manufacturer of the kit then?

Being able to determine if something will flow well doesn't require data. Yes, data helps, but yes, data is required when making iterations to a design when the intent is to maximize flow as much as possible. I highly doubt any company will ever show you design data, whether they have it or not...it's not really in their best interest from a PI standpoint. But to say NO DATA is like arguing with me about you falling back to the ground if you jump up. Sure, unless I have you jump so you can see that you'll fall back down, I have "no data", but that doesn't change the physics behind WHY you will fall back down. If you subject two manifolds to the exact same conditions, the manifold with a smoother, shallower angle transition will have more laminar flow EVERY TIME. It's just the way it is. If you put a disruption in a flow path, you slow things down. That's what happens when the merge occurs at a steeper angle.

lol of course they will flow. I'm talking about performance data.
Info to compare how these kits stack against each other.

['___']

Originally Posted by chili36

lol of course they will flow. I'm talking about performance data.
Info to compare how these kits stack against each other.

You'll likely never get that unless you find a tuner to put the same tune on each kit on cars with the exact same mods....just not gonna happen man. Sorry. End of the day, you pick what you believe will give you what you are looking for at a price you're willing to pay. I have an fftec kit. I think it's a great kit, but would also love to check out the ptf kit. If I were to switch, that's what I would go to. Why? Because the rest are all similar enough to the fftec kits that it would be a waste of time and money for me.

[chili36]

Originally Posted by '___'

You'll likely never get that unless you find a tuner to put the same tune on each kit on cars with the exact same mods....just not gonna happen man. Sorry. End of the day, you pick what you believe will give you what you are looking for at a price you're willing to pay. I have an fftec kit. I think it's a great kit, but would also love to check out the ptf kit. If I were to switch, that's what I would go to. Why? Because the rest are all similar enough to the fftec kits that it would be a waste of time and money for me.

not gonna happen? lol yeah ok. plenty of people running your kit that are FBO and various tunes. not that hard to compare.

Not going to happen??
FYI...there is a comparison taking place with the FFtec kit and the VM kit on the other forum.

['___']

Originally Posted by chili36

not gonna happen? lol yeah ok. plenty of people running your kit that are FBO and various tunes. not that hard to compare.

Not going to happen??
FYI...there is a comparison taking place with the FFtec kit and the VM kit on the other forum.

Is it on the same car running the same exact tune with no change other than the hardware? If not, then you have variables unaccounted for, which leaves avenues open to why one kit will make more or less power than the other.

[chili36]

Originally Posted by '___'

Is it on the same car running the same exact tune with no change other than the hardware? If not, then you have variables unaccounted for, which leaves avenues open to why one kit will make more or less power than the other.

Same car same tune. No variables.

['___']

Originally Posted by chili36

Same car same tune. No variables.

Just because of your attitude, I would so hard if the fftec kit outperforms the VM kit your buying.

[Ingeniator]

Originally Posted by chili36

Same car same tune. No variables.

Originally Posted by '___'

Just because of your attitude, I would so hard if the fftec kit outperforms the VM kit your buying.

I thought we were comparing ADE bottom mount to the fftec BM. I'm now confused. Also because we don't monitor EBP and EGT the two cars could make the same power one will stay healthy one will blow up and we would never know.