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[pj_rage]

Just replaced 2 bald rear and 2 half tread front OEM brdigestone RE050A runflat tires on my 335i sedan with sport suspension with same size (255/35R18 rear, 225/40R18 front) bridgestone S-04 Pole Position tires (non-runflat).

I saw a ton of recommendations to ditch the RFTs. I was actually ok with the ride and handling of the RFTs, but I hated the tread wear, and God were they expensive, so I was all for a change. I saw a lot of good reviews for the S-04, with them supposedly being almost as good as the Michelin PSS (better in some people's opinions) but cheaper, so kind of "king of the category" from what I could find.

My impressions after ~200 miles... The pros... The S-04 are noticeably quieter and smoother feeling overall. I guess I didn't even realize how much road noise was there from the RFTs. The ride is also more gentle, for sure. The S-04s feel significantly "grippier" at pretty much all times as well, and in turns, they stick like craazy, haven't found the limit yet and pushed them pretty hard. They also grip great in the rain, but compared to 2 bald rear RFTs, it's not a fair comparison. The S-04 also have great straight line traction (can't really break the rear anymore in 2nd with JB4 G5), but again, maybe not the fairest comparison to bald tires. In all of these areas, these things really shine. I've tried several tires on several cars over the years, and these really are pretty great.

The cons... just one -- I really miss the turn-in of the RFTs. As in, despite how much I love the improvements in pretty much every other category, I still have a "should I get rid of these and go back?" feeling. To further describe what I mean, with the RFTs, if I jerked the steering wheel hard and fast, the response from the car was immediate -- the car would jerk to the side instantly and whip passengers heads against the windows. If I jerk the wheel now, I get a quite delayed response (~300ms-500ms) before the car responds and turns. I can now whip the steering wheel back and forth quickly and the car won't turn or jerk in either direction -- it just stays straight, whereas with the RFTs, even as quickly as I could possibly jerk the wheel back and forth, the car would still respond by jerking back and forth. Don't get me wrong, this is simply the response and feedback -- without a doubt, the actual grippiness/handling/traction is vastly improved with the S-04s -- it's just the turn-in/feel/feedback/response/precision which is awful (in comparison). This is particularly concerning at high speeds (like above ~70mph). At high speeds, it feels floaty, like I'm riding on 4 marshmallows in comparison to the RFTs. At low speeds, the delay is there but isn't really a worry, but at higher speeds, the floatiness combined with the delayed steering response is enough to worry me a bit about my control of the car during an evasive action or lane change / swerve at higher speeds. Not worrisome in that the car would lose traction or anything, but with such delayed feedback, it's more of a worry of having to sort of guesstimate the response from the car rather than feel it out -- i.e. without instantaneous feedback, you have to base input on previous experience of what the car will do when you turn the wheel X amount, rather than just go at it and adjust with the instant feedback on the fly. This makes me overcorrect more than I did with RFTs. For example, to rapidly changing lanes at high speed... I jerk the wheel what I think is the correct amount then wait for the car to finally respond and begin to turn... then realize I jerked it a hair too much initially, so I then correct it back the other way and wait for the car to finally realize the correction and respond, then see I'm where at, rinse, repeat. Now, I think that this description, while accurate, makes it sound a lot worse than it is -- in practice it's easy to do, and is exactly how the overwhelming majority of cars/tires work as speed increases, however, it's a significant change from what I was used to with the RFTs. As I said, it's mainly a factor when swerving or changing lanes at higher speeds, but isn't really noticeable when in a corner, where, man, the S-04s grip like beasts. Just to note, I'm not thinking this is a case of the S-04 having soft sidewalls compared to other RFTs -- I actually think they are actually stiffer than most (stiffer than PSS even, from what I can gather) -- it's just that they (obviously) are not as stiff as the RFTs. In other words, I don't think any non-RFT tire would resolve this con for me.

Overall, I LOVE the quieter, smoother, more grippy, more traction-y, etc ride of the S-04s, but I HATE the lack of response, feel, and turn-in that I really loved about the RFTs. I have no doubt at all that I could get more used to the S-04s and ultimately be "ok" with the response/feel, since, afterall, it basically just feels like a normal car now (as far as the response/feel goes). The problem, really, is that the turn-in of the RFTs was something I REALLY enjoyed about this car. More than I realized. I'm questioning whether or not I want to give up the quiet, smooth, grippy, good treadwear characteristics to get back the enjoyment I got from the RFT turn-in. Tough choice because it's kind of a long term decision as I expect the S-04s to last several years (I have winter wheels/tires). If I autocrossed or otherwise raced the car, I think the S-04s would be an immense improvement. But for just messing around on the streets, the snappy turn-in, I think, offers more joy than the ultimate grip (for me, anyway). Though, sadly, I'm not sure it's enough to justify the extra money for the RFTs (quite a bit more if you factor in both per-set-cost and treadwear).

I wanted to say that I am toying with the psi to see how much I can improve the response. So far I've tried 32/38 (F/R) psi (cold), and then 35/38 psi (cold). 35/38 is definitely better for me, but still not close to RFT. I might bump it up another couple psi, but I'm a little worried to go too high as the max pressure for the tires is 50psi for both front and rear, and with 35/38 cold, they were reading 40/43 when I got home with warm (wouldn't say hot) tires. Not sure how high that rear is already getting when hot.

I'm now actively looking for other ways to improve the turn-in/response/feel of non-RFTs. I did find/read several threads about people with similar experiences, but I didn't see anything too new, so I'm curious as more people have been (theoretically) having this issue, if more solutions have been tried and tested? I did see that my experience is pretty comparable to others, but it seemed like most people ended up not just getting used to the change in response/feel and dealing with it. Some people said the root cause of the change is that the suspension was designed somewhat loosely for the hard sidewall RFTs and that stiffening the suspension would help get some of the lost turn-in and feel back. I'm curious if anyone has been through this in the last few years since the posts I was reading, and if there are some (relatively) inexpensive mods (~<$500?) I can do so that I can have my cake and eat it too. I did see someone mention that coilovers would help a lot, but they are sort of out of the question (price-wise) for the short term. Was hoping for something a little cheaper, for example, I was wondering if the M3 front control arm upgrade would make a significant difference? Anyone been in a similar situation and can report back specifically about what I can try?

[driverman]

Here's what Tirerack says about break-in:

"Tires are comprised of many layers of rubber, steel and fabric. Due to these different components, your new tires require a break-in period to ensure that they deliver their normal ride quality and maximum performance. As tires are cured, a release lubricant is applied to prevent them from sticking in their mold. Some of the lubricant stays on the surface of your tires, reducing traction until it is worn away. Five hundred miles of easy acceleration, cornering and braking will allow the mold release lubricant to wear off, allowing the other tire components to begin working together. It is also important to note that your old tires probably had very little tread depth remaining when you felt it was time to replace them. As any autocrosser or racer who has tread rubber shaved off of his tires will tell you, low tread depth tires respond more quickly. Don't be surprised if your new tires are a little slower to respond (even if you use the exact same tire as before). Their new, full depth brings with it a little more tread squirm until they wear down."

I've had 3 sets of tires (PS2, DW and S-04) since the original Bridgestone RFT. None of them had as good steering response as the RFT. This makes sense since RFT have much stiffer sidewalls. I hated losing that great steering response and I think most people that have switched feel the same way.

But when you consider all the advantages you cited of the non-RFT AND that the steering response will improve as the tires break-in (especially after a few thousand miles) AND that you can improve the steering response with a few extra PSI during the break-in period AND that even new RFT would feel softer than the old tires AND that the new tires perform better overall (better grip, less hopping around turns on bad roads, etc.), I think you'll be happy with S-04's. I love mine. As the miles build, the non-RFT will feel stiffer and ride a little harder. It's happened with the PS2s, DWs and S-04s.

Based on Max Performance Summer tire comparison tests by C&D and Tirerack and Tirerack's user surveys, the Michelin PSS have the best steering response but the S-04's are rated highly too. So one option you might have, depending on where you bought the S-04s, in exchange them for the PSS.

You best bet is to keep the pressure higher as you are doing and give it some time. You are focusing on it right now because of the dramatic difference, but as time passes, the tires break-in and wear down and your focus changes, you'll probably feel great about your decision.

[pj_rage]

Thanks for the tips. I did consider the tread difference, but the front RFTs I replaced were 60-70% of their new tread depth, so I didn't think I could attribute too much to that.

Bumped the pressures to 38/40 (cold) this morning, and the repsonse is much better. Up from "bearable" to "not too bad". I'm actually surprised how much difference a few psi is making to the ride. More than other tires / setups I've messed with in the past. While the 38 up front has helped response noticeably, it also is a lot rougher of a ride - not too much to bear, but feels too harsh for the car and tires (not sure how to explain that). I think I'm going to try 36 and 37 both and settle on one of those permanently. Given how it felt this morning, I'm feeling more like I'm wanting to keep this setup.

I'm still curious if anyone who noticed the turn-in issue has tried the M3 control arm upgrade and can speak to the difference in response / turn-in / feedback.

[tjrcs]

Thanks for your feedback, PJ. Your review definitely helped with my decision on next tires.

If you can, please come back after 1-2k miles of driving and provide us your updated feedback. Humans are very adaptable creatures... your sole current negative problem might be gone by then.

[fnckr]

Rogue Engineering tension arm bushings help with some of the slop and are cheaper than coil overs.

I noticed a difference when I went from RFT to PS2 and then later changed to Meyle HD tension arm. Now I'm going to 255/40 17 on Apex rims and changing to stock tension arm with RE bushing for added stiffness after the tire.

You'll never get back to RFT response but you can improve after getting rid of them.