[zltm089]

Originally Posted by M3-FAST

Mark, your being a bit of a clown here mate if you don't mind me saying.

Trying to carefully play on words that 'at least 49.9% of all members of this forum are of a below average driving standard when compared against the whole board membership.'

Are you actually saying that half the members of of a below average driving standard. That would explain your quite psychotic post saying that we are all suicidal for contemplating driving without every nanny aid known to man activated.

Or are you trying to be clever and say that if we averaged everyones driving then of course 49.9% would be below average and 50.1% would be above.

If you are unsure about your driving ability (after all you could be in the bottom 10% of the 49.9% below average members??) then you should leave DSC and every other driving aid on when contemplating a 'spirited drive' and leave all us looneys to commit suicide.

By the way, if you ever want to experience ///M Dynamic mode then pop by, I am happy to take you for a 'spin' and demonstrate it

plus one...

[zltm089]

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

Ok and let's get one thing cleared up too.

There are only 3 modes of operation right:

1. Full on - default when you start the car.

2. DTC Activated - a short press (i.e. press and release) of the DTC button activates the DTC. This is what we're talking about here. The system allows increased slippage before cutting in.

3. DTC and DSC Deactivated - a long press (i.e. 3 seconds or more) of the DTC button. This is the balls-out "you're on your own" mode, ideally suited for track driving.

nice one!

[zltm089]

Originally Posted by NFS

NONE OF THESE MODES ARE DANGEROUS.



Arguably, systems like DTC actually INCREASE driving risk, because they allow people to travel in the illusion of safety at speeds which really are not advisable for given situations.

good point!

[zltm089]

DSC/ DTC....like it or hate it...its all down to personal choice....


if you know how to handle (notice, I didn't use the word drive) a powerful RWD car and know how it will react when the rear tyres start losing traction then, DSC off completely is way forward for fast and high speed driving in the dry....

the reason why BMW write about all the warnings about switching off the DSC is because "most" people won't know or will be shocked when the rear tyres loses grip and the rear starts moving about!....

For me its DTC off...because its eating all my rear brake pads!!!/....and at the same time, it will be good for me to improve and "learn" how to handle a RWD car the proper way without all the electronics!...


and yes, I think the DTC/ DSC are crap!....BMW should NOT FIT THEM ON 335i and Ds....

but instead, get the customers to sign a form saying that they are "aware" that the cars are not fitted with all the nanny aids and to be "careful" when driving in the wet!....JUST like the M3 CSL...with the slick tyres!!!!.....

gota keep the 335i/ D hardcore!!!!!............don't like fast cars? then buy a different car with all the extra leather/ sat nav options!...

[Taylor]

...........don't like fast cars? then buy a different car with all the extra leather/ sat nav options!...lol that made me laugh but its true

[Huds]

Originally Posted by Tunna_uk

shorltly after buying my E90, I pressed the button (DSC) and was delighted to find the old E36 back again if that makes sense.

I just tried it, after reading this thread. I know exactly how you feel. I'm still smiling. I felt the BMWness flowing back. Fluid, involving, agile, engaged... the feeling I loved in past BMWs that seemed to be missing.

I love the electronic controls, I also love that they can be turned off.

I'm a slowish driver, (way within the limits of the car) but I still felt a difference. Thanks for all the insight.

(To be clear, I'm talking about a one button press only... I'll leave the 'press and hold' to younger, more skillful hands.)

[RagingKileak]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

QED

D.

To be honest Dave, you don't like me and I don't like you so I suppose that was inevitable.

As always, rather than actually make a point, you simply convince yourself you have one, say something you think is clever and move on without really adding anything to the discussion.

In this case, there have been what, ten less pleasant respones than the one I put in which was perfectly valid. Yet you choose to try and mock me with your 'Latin' anyway, as opposed to tackling something more directly.

Fair play, thanks as ever for your insight.

Matt

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by RagingKileak

To be honest Dave, you don't like me and I don't like you so I suppose that was inevitable.

As always, rather than actually make a point, you simply convince yourself you have one, say something you think is clever and move on without really adding anything to the discussion.

In this case, there have been what, ten less pleasant respones than the one I put in which was perfectly valid. Yet you choose to try and mock me with your 'Latin' anyway, as opposed to tackling something more directly.

Fair play, thanks as ever for your insight.

Matt

I don't dislike you Matt.

Three little letters is not mocking you ... unlike some of the replies directed to the OP.

I happened to reply directly to your reply to me. I could have chosen a few posts that illustrated "my point" [which wasn't actually a point according to you, just me mistakenly convincing myself I had one].

Discussions have many viewpoints. 'Tis the interweb after all.

D.

[RagingKileak]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

I don't dislike you Matt.

Three little letters is not mocking you ... unlike some of the replies directed to the OP.

I happened to reply directly to your reply to me. I could have chosen a few posts that illustrated "my point" [which wasn't actually a point according to you, just me mistakenly convincing myself I had one].

Discussions have many viewpoints. 'Tis the interweb after all.

D.

You and I both know what you meant bud and your abbreviated (or had you posted it in full) term was directly intended to mock me!

You could have chose someone who actually did demonstrate idiocy, which I didn't, but you thought I wouldn't understand you I guess.

Fair play, most people wouldn't I suppose.

Matt

[Dave_3]

Matt - I think you have the wrong end of the stick.

Q.E.D. is not mocking. Even in the slightest.

If you really want me to spell out what my post was about, I can.

D.

Originally Posted by RagingKileak

You and I both know what you meant bud and your abbreviated (or had you posted it in full) term was directly intended to mock me!

You could have chose someone who actually did demonstrate idiocy, which I didn't, but you thought I wouldn't understand you I guess.

Fair play, most people wouldn't I suppose.

Matt

[RagingKileak]

Hmmm well I had assumed you meant the Latin for 'my point is demonstrated' (usually to the detriment of the one quoted) however it's been a long time since I did any Veni, Vidi, Vici so perhaps you meant it to suggest my view supported yours.

I dunno... You might as well enlighten us all... Perhaps you didn't mean anything in Latin lol.

I was thinking of calling truce earlier but I am sure I'm not the only one who wants to know.

Matt

[Dave_3]

Ok, I'll paraphrase as fairly as I can. This is what I originally posted :

Originally Posted by Dave_3

Perhaps the merest hint that questions driving ability causes this knee-jerk, vitriolic response from some ... I'd suggest we wouldn't have seen this if he had asked about any other safety feature.

D.

Originally Posted by RagingKileak

If you ask a question and get sensible answers, but then follow up with something dumb and which in no uncertain terms said 'actually, you all drive like cunts' then what was the OP expecting?

Matt

QED

____________________

Paraphrased :

Me : People seem to be reacting strongly to the suggestion they may be bad drivers.

You : When the OP said "we drive like cunts" (your paraphrasing), why be surprised at the reaction ?

Me: Well, there you go then.

Meaning your reply also agreed about the reaction to the suggestion of bad drivers, as I commented previously.

That is not mocking.

D.

[RagingKileak]

Glad I got in with the retranslation in time to retain some cred then!!!

Peace once again!!



Matt

[NFS]

You are missing the point. This was the question the original poster asked.

Originally Posted by m@rk

is it not rather dangerous to advise somebody to engage DTC prior to going out on a quick drive on dry roads.

Indeed is it not a suicidal thing to do?

Very clearly it is NOT dangerous or suicidal to use DTC.

It is dangerous to drive too quickly for a given situation or exceed the limits of a car or drivers ability. However, no one suggested that would be a good idea.

Yet we have comments like this:

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

it is very irresponsible to increase your own risk on the public highway and that of other road users, particularly when you buy a car with a good bunch of safety aids provided.

It's NOT irresponsible to use the DTC mode or even switch of DSC+

This does not increase risk to other road users. My car could sit parked outside all day with DSC+ off and pose precisely no danger to anyone.

The danger comes when someone drives it. The driver is 100% in control and 100% responsible, with or without stability control systems.

I stand by my opinion that drivers who actually have an understanding of the limits of their cars, who have experience driving them without the safety net of stability systems, will be safer.

DSC+ can get you out of trouble. But safe drivers won't get into trouble in the first place. That doesn't mean that they are driving gods. It means that they drive at speeds appropriate for a given situation and that they use the cars controls with a degree of mechanical sympathy.

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by NFS

I stand by my opinion that drivers who actually have an understanding of the limits of their cars, who have experience driving them without the safety net of stability systems, will be safer.

I agree, not every car I own has driver aids and big wide sticky tyres. Keeps you in touch.

There are clearly many who understand what anacronym does what. Maybe, they've even read the owners' manual.

But sometimes it is stated to newcomers to switch them off (as the OP picked up on) and go for it. Subtley hinted as a rite of passage for real drivers. When it has been shown there are some who are not really sure of what they are swicthing off (or what they had previously engaged).

D.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by NFS

It's NOT irresponsible to use the DTC mode or even switch of DSC+

This does not increase risk to other road users. My car could sit parked outside all day with DSC+ off and pose precisely no danger to anyone.

The danger comes when someone drives it. The driver is 100% in control and 100% responsible, with or without stability control systems.

I'm not sure I really should bother to answer this one, as who would be switching off controls to leave the car parked?

Of course it is the driver and his/her responsibility, it is the very reason for this topic and discussion as I read it.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't think so.

HighlandPete

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

But sometimes it is stated to newcomers to switch them off (as the OP picked up on) and go for it. Subtley hinted as a rite of passage for real drivers. When it has been shown there are some who are not really sure of what they are swicthing off (or what they had previously engaged).

D.

People have to take responsibility for their own actions. Peer pressure is not an excuse.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I'm not sure I really should bother to answer this one, as who would be switching off controls to leave the car parked?

Of course it is the driver and his/her responsibility, it is the very reason for this topic and discussion as I read it.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't think so.

HighlandPete

You said, without any caveat, that it was 'very irresponsible' to disengage a safety system.

I disagree completely. It's irresponsible to drive badly, having a safety system does not make you safe.

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by NFS

People have to take responsibility for their own actions. Peer pressure is not an excuse.

I agree again. Some of the replies are very fair and informative.

But then, likewise, a little caveat expressed against the "hey you freak, get the f$*k outta here" replies shouldn't be looked at with such suspicion.

D.

[zltm089]

[chris330D]

QED actually means 'thus it is shown'. Read this thread with a mixture of interest and sadness. On the one hand I find it sad that most motoring programmes (Top Gear, fith gear etc), the first thing the presenter says when they get in the car is TRACTION CONTROL OFF. This is said in an extremely macho way and the inference is you have to be a real driver to drive without the traction control.

I had a friend who found out the hard way what happens when you run out of talent on the road. He is no not with us and leaves 3 passengers permanently scarred. However that would not stop me criticising how others want to drive their cars. The OP is right, you do take a risk switching the aids off. It is still afree world so long you understand those risks and drive appropriately for the road conditions, good luck to you.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

I agree again. Some of the replies are very fair and informative.

But then, likewise, a little caveat expressed against the "hey you freak, get the f$*k outta here" replies shouldn't be looked at with such suspicion.

D.

I agree that no-one should have jumped on the OP for simply asking a question and also that there is never an excuse for rudeness.

My concern is statements like this:

Originally Posted by m@rk

at no point does anybody point out that this is also dialling back the safety features so the onus is now on the driver to keep out of trouble.

The onus is always on the driver to keep out of trouble. Regardless of the safety systems on the car.

This sort of thinking reminds me of the Toyota 'crisis'. We have a situation where people are scared and a company is in trouble because accelerators are sticking or getting jammed by floor mats.

If people had a minimal level of critical thinking ability and mechanical knowledge, they would realise that even if this happened, they could simply knock the car into neutral and brake to a halt.