E90Post
 


TNT Racewerks
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos > Still want an EV?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-03-2023, 06:28 AM   #4269
M5Rick
General
M5Rick's Avatar
57364
Rep
18,778
Posts

Drives: M5 F10 DCT Gunmetal
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Southern England

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
It's interesting how the tail wags the dog in the case of the EV.

Is it the attachment to the ICE that tends to result in the acceptance of the idea that climate change was a lie, or was it the initial skepticism of climate change that turned these people off to the EV?
Simply some believe that 'climate change' (who made that up) is the deciding factor and don't look at the bigger picture, eg.future power supply cost, pollution figures are over guessed grossly by 'green scientists', earth ravaging for lithium and slave labour in third world countries are some of the issues.
Appreciate 3
KRS_SN13003.50
AmuroRay2087.00
      10-03-2023, 06:56 AM   #4270
KRS_SN
Major General
KRS_SN's Avatar
United Kingdom
13004
Rep
5,085
Posts

Drives: IX,G07
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Glasgow

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 X7  [10.00]
X5  [8.50]
IX  [6.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Maybe burning fossil fuels would be good for the plants if CO2 were the only byproduct.
Well the war against co2 is what we are discussing by bev transition the enforcement being to keep global temps etc below an arbitrary mark.
Appreciate 2
M5Rick57363.50
AmuroRay2087.00
      10-03-2023, 07:19 AM   #4271
KRS_SN
Major General
KRS_SN's Avatar
United Kingdom
13004
Rep
5,085
Posts

Drives: IX,G07
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Glasgow

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 X7  [10.00]
X5  [8.50]
IX  [6.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
Simply some believe that 'climate change' (who made that up) is the deciding factor and don't look at the bigger picture, eg.future power supply cost, pollution figures are over guessed grossly by 'green scientists', earth ravaging for lithium and slave labour in third world countries are some of the issues.
climate change...climate crisis....climate emergency....climate catastrophe...the poor teens are scared out of their wits with the hysteria and some aren't attending school too I hear.
Appreciate 1
M5Rick57363.50
      10-03-2023, 07:34 AM   #4272
M5Rick
General
M5Rick's Avatar
57364
Rep
18,778
Posts

Drives: M5 F10 DCT Gunmetal
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Southern England

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
climate change...climate crisis....climate emergency....climate catastrophe...the poor teens are scared out of their wits with the hysteria and some aren't attending school too I hear.
Basically teens need to wise up, they can join the scouts like I did for some 'roughage' and the girls to the girl guides, the present education system isn't helping them a lot also.
It's their future and they can influence the gubment in what they really want.
Appreciate 1
KRS_SN13003.50
      10-03-2023, 09:14 AM   #4273
kyriian
Captain
kyriian's Avatar
848
Rep
671
Posts

Drives: 06 Black Sapphire Z4MR
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 BMW X5  [0.00]
2011 Scion tC  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Are we upholding the standards of critical thinking by disqualifying studies with conspiracy theories that best fit our confirmation bias?
Are we upholding the standards of critical thinking by disqualifying studies with other studies that counter studies that best fit our confirmation bias?

Are we upholding the standards of critical thinking by disqualifying future studies that will counter existing or past studies that best fit our confirmation bias?

Very few if any studies are unbiased, and scientific studies change with technological, data, and statistical changes, most studies start with its own confirmation bias, its studies by other humans afterall.

What exactly is increasing consumption (in this case, EV)doing to help climate change?
__________________
Revolution of our Times

I will return to the track, one day.

Last edited by kyriian; 10-03-2023 at 10:06 AM..
Appreciate 4
3798j11032.00
M5Rick57363.50
AmuroRay2087.00
      10-03-2023, 12:31 PM   #4274
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
18451
Rep
14,083
Posts

Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2022 G82 M4C X-Drive  [9.83]
2018 F80 M3 CS  [9.83]
2019 i3 BEV  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyriian View Post
Are we upholding the standards of critical thinking by disqualifying future studies that will counter existing or past studies that best fit our confirmation bias?

My initial post was an earnest attempt to understand the thought process of those who are anti-EV and those climate change skeptics and why they are so closely related. Is there a causational or correlational relationship?


Here's how the conversation went:

Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
It's interesting how the tail wags the dog in the case of the EV.

Is it the attachment to the ICE that tends to result in the acceptance of the idea that climate change was a lie, or was it the initial skepticism of climate change that turned these people off to the EV?

A small part of me was expecting someone to suggest that their stance on the EV was formed from the idea that they were skeptical of the idea of climate change because of a particular study, or personal experience. This would indication a causational relationship in a clear direction.

Instead, here was the answer I recieved:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas1836 View Post
I think that people don't like things mandated by our .gov and meddling in our daily lives thinking (I use that term loosely) that they know what's best for us, one size fits all.

So, we can reasonably deduce that the decision to be anti-EV was primarily that they do not want to be told what to do by the government. Not a study, not a personal experience regarding climate change itself, instead they simply didn't like being told what to do.

So I then attempted to ascertain the value of studies aka "mainstream science" in this formation of beliefs:


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
If a government creates policy based on a study, and we don't like that these polices meddle in our daily lives, then the logical thing to do is to reject the validity of the study?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas1836 View Post
a study "LOL WUT"

I got my answer, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the value of mainstream science is low in the anti-EV, climate change skeptic crowd.

Your reply supports this phenomena as well:


Quote:
Originally Posted by kyriian View Post
Very few if any studies are unbiased

Now we are getting somewhere!


Flat earthers also reject overwhelming "mainstream" scientific evidence that doesn't align with their beliefs. They use alternative explanations, like the idea that time zones are a product of the sun acting as a spotlight moving in a circle above the earth.


If only very few studies are unbiased, what alternative explanations are you, yourself, utilizing to help form your current belief?
__________________

2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing
Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3
IG: Raging_G82

Last edited by jmg; 10-03-2023 at 01:38 PM..
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 12:46 PM   #4275
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
18451
Rep
14,083
Posts

Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2022 G82 M4C X-Drive  [9.83]
2018 F80 M3 CS  [9.83]
2019 i3 BEV  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
climate change...climate crisis....climate emergency....climate catastrophe...the poor teens are scared out of their wits with the hysteria
Are the validity of ideas judged simply by how scary they are?


Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
and some aren't attending school too I hear.
Interesting.

Source?
__________________

2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing
Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3
IG: Raging_G82
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 12:59 PM   #4276
KRS_SN
Major General
KRS_SN's Avatar
United Kingdom
13004
Rep
5,085
Posts

Drives: IX,G07
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Glasgow

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 X7  [10.00]
X5  [8.50]
IX  [6.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Interesting.

Source?
Sorry
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 1
M5Rick57363.50
      10-03-2023, 01:16 PM   #4277
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
18451
Rep
14,083
Posts

Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2022 G82 M4C X-Drive  [9.83]
2018 F80 M3 CS  [9.83]
2019 i3 BEV  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Sorry
She’s more the exception than the rule. Most of the kids at my kids school don’t even care about climate change. It’s mentioned in science class but it’s much more pragmatic than one might think and not so dogmatic. Ie the language is more like “some studies suggest” and not “the end is neigh”.
__________________

2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing
Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3
IG: Raging_G82
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 02:11 PM   #4278
KRS_SN
Major General
KRS_SN's Avatar
United Kingdom
13004
Rep
5,085
Posts

Drives: IX,G07
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Glasgow

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 X7  [10.00]
X5  [8.50]
IX  [6.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
She’s more the exception than the rule. Most of the kids at my kids school don’t even care about climate change. It’s mentioned in science class but it’s much more pragmatic than one might think and not so dogmatic. Ie the language is more like “some studies suggest” and not “the end is neigh”.
Pretty significant exception though. Around here the schools are the opposite. Tbh it's dependent on the teachers and a proportion of the young ones in my daughters primary school are climate activists. There's nothing against them preaching their belief in school.
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 02:36 PM   #4279
Tejas1836
Captain
Tejas1836's Avatar
971
Rep
814
Posts

Drives: 2023 X5MC Workmaster 75
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Tejas

iTrader: (0)

...
Attached Images
 
__________________
Two is One and One is None
Appreciate 1
      10-03-2023, 02:53 PM   #4280
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
18451
Rep
14,083
Posts

Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2022 G82 M4C X-Drive  [9.83]
2018 F80 M3 CS  [9.83]
2019 i3 BEV  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Pretty significant exception though. Around here the schools are the opposite. Tbh it's dependent on the teachers and a proportion of the young ones in my daughters primary school are climate activists. There's nothing against them preaching their belief in school.
She is one child in billions, so while she gets a lot of notoriety, she's statistically insignificant, even if culturally significant, for better or worse.

Suggesting that a meaningful amount of teens are ditching school seems like the same fear mongering tactic climate crisis activists allegedly use.

It's important to recognize fear mongering as an obstacle to productive dialog, regardless of which side is using it.

Regardless, for argument's sake lets say there are teens missing school taking up this cause. Should the legitimacy of a cause be determined by who takes on that cause and how it might negatively affect them? If that was a legitimate determining factor, should we not hold the Civil Rights movement to the same standards and hold it up to the same scrutiny?

The Civil Rights movement, after all, was also a cause taken upon by a large group of young adults at the time. Of those who argued against the Civil Rights movement because of how it made teens miss school, what side of history did they think they would end up being on?
__________________

2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing
Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3
IG: Raging_G82
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 02:56 PM   #4281
KRS_SN
Major General
KRS_SN's Avatar
United Kingdom
13004
Rep
5,085
Posts

Drives: IX,G07
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Glasgow

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 X7  [10.00]
X5  [8.50]
IX  [6.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
She is one child in billions, so while she gets a lot of notoriety, she's statistically insignificant, even if culturally significant, for better or worse.

Suggesting that a meaningful amount of teens are ditching school seems like the same fear mongering tactic climate crisis activists allegedly use.

It's important to recognize fear mongering as an obstacle to productive dialog, regardless of which side is using it.

Regardless, for argument's sake lets say there are teens missing school taking up this cause. Should the legitimacy of a cause be determined by who takes on that cause and how it might negatively affect them? If that was a legitimate determining factor, should we not hold the Civil Rights movement to the same standards and hold it up to the same scrutiny?

The Civil Rights movement, after all, was also a cause taken upon by a large group of young adults at the time. Of those who argued against the Civil Rights movement because of how it made teens miss school, what side of history did they think they would end up being on?
It was a sarcastic joke..I had greta in mind all along!.
Of course teens aren't missing school in hordes but a good proportion of them post greta probably think we are imminently doomed.
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 02:56 PM   #4282
M5Rick
General
M5Rick's Avatar
57364
Rep
18,778
Posts

Drives: M5 F10 DCT Gunmetal
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Southern England

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
My initial post was an earnest attempt to understand the thought process of those who are anti-EV and those climate change skeptics and why they are so closely related. Is there a causational or correlational relationship?


Here's how the conversation went:






A small part of me was expecting someone to suggest that their stance on the EV was formed from the idea that they were skeptical of the idea of climate change because of a particular study, or personal experience. This would indication a causational relationship in a clear direction.

Instead, here was the answer I recieved:





So, we can reasonably deduce that the decision to be anti-EV was primarily that they do not want to be told what to do by the government. Not a study, not a personal experience regarding climate change itself, instead they simply didn't like being told what to do.

So I then attempted to ascertain the value of studies aka "mainstream science" in this formation of beliefs:







I got my answer, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the value of mainstream science is low in the anti-EV, climate change skeptic crowd.

Your reply supports this phenomena as well:





Now we are getting somewhere!


Flat earthers also reject overwhelming "mainstream" scientific evidence that doesn't align with their beliefs. They use alternative explanations, like the idea that time zones are a product of the sun acting as a spotlight moving in a circle above the earth.


If only very few studies are unbiased, what alternative explanations are you, yourself, utilizing to help form your current belief?
I understand where you're coming from but your intelligent questions don't tally with the way 'climate change' and 'net zero' is being forced on everyone suddenly by an undemocratic system.
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 03:07 PM   #4283
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
18451
Rep
14,083
Posts

Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2022 G82 M4C X-Drive  [9.83]
2018 F80 M3 CS  [9.83]
2019 i3 BEV  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas1836 View Post
...
To be perfectly honest, it seems that constructive discourse has given way to an echo chamber in this thread some time ago. Echo chambers parrot rhetoric they know people will agree with, narrowing their perspective, and forgetting how to form arguments that will resonate outside of those that already agree with them.


Presenting diverse perspectives in this echo chamber benefits everyone.

Think of it as practice. The weak rhetoric lives rent free when not challenged. Sparring with someone who disagrees with you makes you sharper.
__________________

2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing
Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3
IG: Raging_G82

Last edited by jmg; 10-03-2023 at 03:13 PM..
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 03:12 PM   #4284
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
18451
Rep
14,083
Posts

Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2022 G82 M4C X-Drive  [9.83]
2018 F80 M3 CS  [9.83]
2019 i3 BEV  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Rick View Post
I understand where you're coming from but your intelligent questions don't tally with the way 'climate change' and 'net zero' is being forced on everyone suddenly by an undemocratic system.
If the ultimate goal was to always come to the same conclusion, then minimizing the other side as unintelligent and dismissing discourse as futile is an effective strategy.

Whether or not it is beneficial or constructive to anyone, is another question.
__________________

2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing
Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3
IG: Raging_G82
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 03:19 PM   #4285
Tejas1836
Captain
Tejas1836's Avatar
971
Rep
814
Posts

Drives: 2023 X5MC Workmaster 75
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Tejas

iTrader: (0)

jmg
What is your thesis?
__________________
Two is One and One is None
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 03:36 PM   #4286
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
18451
Rep
14,083
Posts

Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2022 G82 M4C X-Drive  [9.83]
2018 F80 M3 CS  [9.83]
2019 i3 BEV  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas1836 View Post
jmg
What is your thesis?
I'm more interested in understanding and providing different perspectives on the formation of ideas than trying to convince others to accept my actual beliefs.
__________________

2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing
Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3
IG: Raging_G82
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 03:41 PM   #4287
Tejas1836
Captain
Tejas1836's Avatar
971
Rep
814
Posts

Drives: 2023 X5MC Workmaster 75
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Tejas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I'm more interested in understanding and providing different perspectives on the formation of ideas than trying to convince others to accept my actual beliefs.
OK, but what is your thesis? In order to understand, one must have a thesis, otherwise it is just trolling.
__________________
Two is One and One is None
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 03:44 PM   #4288
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
18451
Rep
14,083
Posts

Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2022 G82 M4C X-Drive  [9.83]
2018 F80 M3 CS  [9.83]
2019 i3 BEV  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
It was a sarcastic joke..I had greta in mind all along!.
Of course teens aren't missing school in hordes but a good proportion of them post greta probably think we are imminently doomed.
The irony is that if that doom were real, but our efforts to avert from it are successful, then those who were against those efforts will use the absence of that doom as an argument that there wasn't any doom to begin with.

Case in point, the Civil Rights Movement was successful from certain perspectives, but unsuccessful from other's perspectives, most notably from those who feel like their quality of life or position has diminished since then regardless of the moral implications of such a conclusion. The question remains, was it a valid movement even though there were negative consequences, ie teens missing school, fear, civil unrest, violence etc.?
__________________

2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing
Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3
IG: Raging_G82
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 03:54 PM   #4289
KRS_SN
Major General
KRS_SN's Avatar
United Kingdom
13004
Rep
5,085
Posts

Drives: IX,G07
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Glasgow

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 X7  [10.00]
X5  [8.50]
IX  [6.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
The irony is that if that doom were real, but our efforts to avert from it are successful, then those who were against those efforts will use the absence of that doom as an argument that there wasn't any doom to begin with.

Case in point, the Civil Rights Movement was successful from certain perspectives, but unsuccessful from other's perspectives, most notably from those who feel like their quality of life or position has diminished since then regardless of the moral implications of such a conclusion. The question remains, was it a valid movement even though there were negative consequences, ie teens missing school, fear, civil unrest, violence etc.?
I'd say like aspirin or statin never know if they worked when you don't get a atroke or a heart attack. The civil rights movement probably isn't a great allegory here.
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2023, 04:08 PM   #4290
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
18451
Rep
14,083
Posts

Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2022 G82 M4C X-Drive  [9.83]
2018 F80 M3 CS  [9.83]
2019 i3 BEV  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas1836 View Post
OK, but what is your thesis? In order to understand, one must have a thesis, otherwise it is just trolling.
The primary objective of trolling is to provoke chaos and aggressive responses. My goal is to stimulate discussion and introspection.

If someone feels the urge to be aggressive, that's their decision, or perhaps a limitation brought on by a over-reliance on an echo chamber for civil discourse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas1836 View Post
In order to understand, one must have a thesis, otherwise it is just trolling.
You're not completely wrong, but while it can help in understanding, if we are too attached to our thesis aka our beliefs, then we become susceptible to confirmation bias as we reject ideas that conflict with them.

Additionally, understanding also comes from empathy and perspective, two things that can be hindered by a predetermined thesis.
__________________

2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing
Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3
IG: Raging_G82
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:21 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST