[justpete]

Definitely more torque across the board and more torque to higher revs with the N54 manifold which would make a noticeable difference on the track. The 3IM has a real problem at the top of the rev range. I wonder how the N54 manifold would stack up against S54 ITBs and a CSL airbox.

[Phyrexia]

Serious question this time: Is the stock N52 rotating assembly really up to spinning to 7500 RPM regularly?

I only ask because in the N52 section of the TIS, maximum permissible constant and transient engine speeds are listed - 6300 and 6500(?) RPM, respectively. Compare this to the S54 (my favorite engine and the first high stringer that comes to mind), with 7800/8000 listed. I ask this with the caveat that the reported N52 max seems wrong.

[cwlo]

An added benefit of the n54 manifold is all the room it leaves due to its small size. Makes working on that side a breeze, and I can pop that manifold off in a few minutes. If you've ever done a starter replacement with the 3im, you'll appreciate it.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Phyrexia

Serious question this time: Is the stock N52 rotating assembly really up to spinning to 7500 RPM regularly?

I only ask because in the N52 section of the TIS, maximum permissible constant and transient engine speeds are listed - 6300 and 6500(?) RPM, respectively. Compare this to the S54 (my favorite engine and the first high stringer that comes to mind), with 7800/8000 listed. I ask this with the caveat that the reported N52 max seems wrong.

It'll last long enough to make a race season, I'm guessing. Would never see anywhere near as much time at 7000+rpm on the street so likely not an issue over a few years of daily driving. Just swaggin it though.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

For me this mod wouldn’t be about more peak power. It’s about more time at peak. If I can make near peak power for 1000 rpms instead of like 300 rpms that will be a huge win.

Look at the dyno paying attention to the shape of the curve and look at the area under the dynos from 5000-7500. One has a big sharp peak with slopes, the other is like a table top. Even with the same peak power the table top would be better.

I firmly believe total area under the dyno matters more than a single high peak output, when both have the same peak number.

And where the rubber meats the road, when I’m running the car hard I’m only passing from 5500 rpms to 7500 rpms through each gear. That n54 dyno is especially sweet in that range.

That’s not a 3 stage manifold overlay. Well aware of how the N54 manifold works, but it only makes more power past 6800rpm, if even. If I were racing - sure, but for street driving, the 3 stage is superior.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

That’s not a 3 stage manifold overlay. Well aware of how the N54 manifold works, but it only makes more power past 6800rpm, if even. If I were racing - sure, but for street driving, the 3 stage is superior.

Sure looks like one tho.

[Phyrexia]

Originally Posted by justpete

It'll last long enough to make a race season, I'm guessing. Would never see anywhere near as much time at 7000+rpm on the street so likely not an issue over a few years of daily driving. Just swaggin it though.

Heh I have come to realize over the years every mile of Victor Driving is driving under "Severe Conditions" - you might be surprised how many miles my M3 spent over 6500 RPM and I never tracked it a minute. But then I wasn't concerned with throwing a rod. And had lots of empty highway commuting miles.

I think you're right re: holding up for a racing season but I am aware of exactly one(1) N52 race car in the NA section here. I think the vast majority of us are on the aggro side of street drivers, and for that kind of use, I often enjoyed driving my 540 more than my M3, just because it had gobs of torque down low. (The fact that I could outrun modded G and Z cars in a 20 year old sedan didn't hurt...)

This leads me to concur with Mr. Taskmaster, that the 3IM is the superior choice for most N52 cars.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Phyrexia

Heh I have come to realize over the years every mile of Victor Driving is driving under "Severe Conditions" - you might be surprised how many miles my M3 spent over 6500 RPM and I never tracked it a mile. But then I wasn't concerned with throwing a rod.

Gotta be near redline nearly all the time with a momentum car so a race engine sees nearly all its hours at redline, no street driven car gets anywhere close.

[BudVlad]

Originally Posted by Phyrexia

Why stop at the OE N54 Manifold? There are aftermarket N54 manifolds that, presumably, will fit just as well.

I was considering aftermarket manifold but I don’t think this one has any advantage over the plastic manifold.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/UPGRADE-TUNI...0AAOSwcN5amWCz


The one with longer runners would probably improve torque but I can’t see how could I connect TB to my airbox.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Upgrade-T...QAAOSwZDlansIh

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by BudVlad

I was considering aftermarket manifold but I don’t think this one has any advantage over the plastic manifold.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/UPGRADE-TUNI...0AAOSwcN5amWCz


The one with longer runners would probably improve torque but I can’t see how could I connect TB to my airbox.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Upgrade-T...QAAOSwZDlansIh

IIRC no one has proven any real gains with those on the N54. People usually get them because it's a cheap way to get a fuel rail for port injection as the stock HPFP can't deliver the amount of E85 people want at high HP, thus they need port injection on top of the stock direct injection. These cheap manifolds are an easy solution vs. a sandwich plate between the head and manifold. They are also less likely to break if you have a backfire(rare).

This manifold and others of this style have had proven gains on the N54: https://docrace.com/products/n54-int...=5290066870313

[Phyrexia]

I was sort of foot in mouth. There are a couple of them with extra injector ports on most of them that won't do us any good. The stock N54 manifold breathes better up top, which doesn't surprise me, but during the R&D for the aftermarket units, I imagine there was very little thought put into maximizing low end torque. 'Cause boost. The throttle body placement on the aftermarket manifolds is even less ideal for an N/A car than the stock N54 manifold.

Originally Posted by BudVlad

I was considering aftermarket manifold but I don’t think this one has any advantage over the plastic manifold.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/UPGRADE-TUNI...0AAOSwcN5amWCz


The one with longer runners would probably improve torque but I can’t see how could I connect TB to my airbox.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Upgrade-T...QAAOSwZDlansIh

[Taskmaster]

So I did all of this for you, just so you can have it in one place:

Per 2015:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...188531&page=14

The early N54 vs 3 Stage manifold dyno overlay

This is an older dyno sheet from last year I have on a computer at home. This is the N54 intake with a beta mild tune with no changes to the vanos and valvetronic (just fuel / timing adjustments/ rev limiter set to 7500rpm) it was the first WOT pull i did on the car after the swap vs AA all out tune with the 3 stage intake, changes to the Vanos, valvetronic and DISA valves. Once again, this is not comparing us vs AA, this is more to show a base tune with the n54 intake vs the best tune out there for the 3 stage intake.

Then a revised tune from BPC on the N54:

Small update for you,

Best numbers from the n54 intake and alpha n tune with a custom intake pipe and stock air box w/ filter. It will rev to 7700rpm safely and after 50+ pulls on the dyno, that little 3L is still running strong The power after 7500 kinda flat lines at 248hp, so I kept the limiter @ 7500. I was able to get 225tq out of the intake, however, there was a big midrange dip in the powerband. We'll have more info on Monday for you.

Per thread
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1206386 late 2015:

Originally Posted by Bob@BPC

Thats also something we are already working on. Looking to set the compression to 12 or 12.5:1. We also did some testing with c16 race gas with minimal results. (5-6rwhp) Not really worth running it in the stock engine.

Also:

The N52 throttle does not fit on the n54 manifold, so you do need the n54 tb, the electrical connections are the same. I did few pulls with the n54 manifold installed and remove the TB all together and did not see a increase in power, however, I did see better numbers with the MAF removed (Alpha N).

(note, I don't believe that ALFA N increases power on its own, but it does allow for a bigger than normal intake pipe, which lead to power increases.


Now for the meat - 3 stage manifold with the DISA 4th stage turned off (stopping it from closing) Before and after



Here is the 3 stage with a BBTB (Dinan) before and after - no tune. I've asked 3002 tii for the run file so I can compare the drop at 6500RPM + but I might have to buy and dyno myself.




So let's pause and take a breather -

Looks like with the 3 stage DISA point removed, there is a small gain near redline. Adding a BBTB (no tune to account for the valvetronic limiter, and the 4th DISA stage closing) there seems to be slight uptick in power that is carried towards redline (you can see my crude MS Paint Skills trying to measure it)

Together, they may help keep power peak close to redline...
Then again, who knows what the BBTB can do on the N54 manifold.

This is a full view of a 3 stage intake manifold with the 4th stage "turned off" note the drop off still occurs, about 10whp down from peak...
This is actually with Bob@BPC BPC's tune -

[Biginboca]

BudVlad said earlier in this thread he’s running a WCR Big Bore TB with the N54 Manifold. I assume he means the one for the N52 (n53?) because he said it didn’t have the vacuum port which the N54 TB does have.

I’m currently waiting on my N54 mani tune to arrive from Bob. Once I get all the mounting for TB to Airbox connection and Vacuum lines sorted I’ll be running my own tests. I have plenty of baseline info for the 3 stage now with my Dragy timer.

The set up I’m intending to run will be:

AFE Air Scoops
AFE Stage 2 Sealed Airbox with Cone Filter
Rev Motoring Silicone to adapt AFE Airbox to TB inlet. (Might use some pvc pieces if I need to custom bend some angles).
WCR Big Bore Throttle Body
N54 Manifold (*Pending)
MILV’s
AA Headers
Supersprint Secondary Cat Delete
Stock Resonator
AA Gen 2 Muffler (*Pending)

If the N54 Mani performs as I expect in my Dragy measurements I will dyno the whole set up. Would love to see this set up dyno over 260whp, and I suspect it will be close to doing that.

[Taskmaster]

Part 2:

N54 manifold MAF tune vs ALFA N:

Dyno Sheet
Blue is with Maf connected
Red is Mafless (Alpha N)
(NOTE: still working out some bugs with the top end of the Alpha N tune)

I could be wrong, but those differences aren't because of ALFA N, but because it allows the car to run an unrestricted intake. In MY findings, a larger diameter intake can make more torque and peak power, but low end torque may suffer.


Also note how much power is made past 7000rpm (over 240whp!)


Now - N54 manifold vs 3 stage manifold:

Well here's the max numbers out of the N54 manifold with our mafless tune & cold air intake
(Other mods, 6 speed swap, AA header, and custom catless exhaust)

Blue Graph N54
Red Graph 3 Stage with same mods 6speed, AA header, Custom Tune, & catless exhaust

The N54 consistently will make 240whp+ from 6500RPM+ which is nice
A 3 stage manifold makes nearly the same peak, but at a lower RPM, doesn't hold it as well - but offers more torque/power everhwere else (and this dyno doesn't do a good job at showing maximum torque gains possible)

From all the dynos I've posted so far, the 3 stage can't make over 230whp at at 7000rpm or over - MILVS/BBTB may help, but that may be the limit of the manifold itself. There is also a question on if a larger diameter intake would help out - I think so (I could be wrong)

See below on why....

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1451616
N54 tune on a 128i

This past Friday we had a rather unique 2010 128i come in for dyno pulls and a tune. This 128i has AA headers, 135i muffler with resonator delete and N54 intake manifold and 128i US air box with K&N filter installed.

• Stock 128i 6mt - 201.39whp 185.88wtq
• With modifications w/o BPC tune - 235.25whp 200.48wtq
• With all modifications + BPC tune 248.04whp 207.31wtq

Note the huge dip on the graph - I think that's a result of the silicone hose. Maybe a larger diameter pipe would work better and thicken up the powerband -including adding more power up top.

BOTH manifolds would likely be an upgrade over the stock single stage though, and CobraMarty MILVS do a lot to add a lot more torque to the car, so interesting things could happen...

Here is a

[justpete]

Yeah, the 3IM falters about 6500rpm and drops out while the N54 manifold stays at roughly the same peak hp for a 1000rpm range. That's a substantial difference on the track, doesn't really matter on the street. Would rather have ITBs and velocity stacks, just 'cuz...

[Taskmaster]

Part 3 - (I promise I'm done after this!)

Originally Posted by Dan@BPC

Two Graphs

Stock N52 330i Red

Mods headers, full exhaust, and mods below
250rwhp / 211rwtq 3 Stage manifold with Alpha N tune & issue with 4th stage
250rwhp / 205rwtq N54 intake with our intake & Alpha N tune

Bob's notes on the test

Originally Posted by Bob@BPC

After testing we ended up sticking with 3" piping since we did not see a huge bump in power. As for the visualize, we are still working out the pipe design, I'll have some pictures next week.


Im not a big fan of the 3 big humps from the DISA valves and have reduce that. You can feel them and I wanted a smoother power band.

Just note - a better intake allowed the 3 stage manifold to increase it's top end potential over 10whp (kinda like that BBTB!)

[Taskmaster]

My final thoughts on this:

The N54 just is a better track manifold out of the box, as the 3 stage just putters out up top - However, with the addition of MILVS, BBTB, and a larger/better intake - there is still potential there. (I'm going to ask if BPC would be willing to start making those intakes available for N54/3 stage guys with ALFA N...)


I like the idea of the N54 - No DISA, good low end torque - and with breather mods it has the potential to add even more power than what these dynos show. I bet this manifold could do 260whp+ with MILVS and a BBTB - It's a better track manifold for sure. Don't be fooled - even though the 3SM can make the same peak, the N54 may have they potential to make more average power in the last 2000RPM...

For a dual purpose car though, the 3 stage is just hard to beat, especially considering you can make 90% the power (and then some) with better mid range power, it's a better for every day use. Just my .02 cents.

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

My final thoughts on this:

The N54 just is a better track manifold out of the box, as the 3 stage just putters out up top - However, with the addition of MILVS, BBTB, and a larger/better intake - there is still potential there. (I'm going to ask if BPC would be willing to start making those intakes available for N54/3 stage guys with ALFA N...)


I like the idea of the N54 - No DISA, good low end torque - and with breather mods it has the potential to add even more power than what these dynos show. I bet this manifold could do 260whp+ with MILVS and a BBTB - It's a better track manifold for sure. Don't be fooled - even though the 3SM can make the same peak, the N54 may have they potential to make more average power in the last 2000RPM...

For a dual purpose car though, the 3 stage is just hard to beat, especially considering you can make 90% the power (and then some) with better mid range power, it's a better for every day use. Just my .02 cents.

Great info, thanks for compiling and posting all that. My feeling is, my car was a great daily when it was stock. For daily use there was never any need to chase power really. It’s currently making really good power I did run a 13.9 1/4 mile so it’s no slouch.

I feel the N54 Mani is worth pursuing though because based on the comments from Randall I really won’t notice any torque drop with the N54 mani. The drop is measurable on dyno but insignificant from the drivers seat.

But he said the top end is much different and noticably stronger. His exact words were “Expect much lower gas mileage for 2 weeks cause you will love it and be getting on it constantly.” If you trust BPC, well they are fans of this mod and recommended it to me after trying it. No one in this thread has tried it but 2 guys and they and BPC are saying it’s great.

In summary, when I want to go fast I want to go very fast and I rev the motor out. When I want to go slow the revs are low as even stock power was good enough. Having the ability to carry over 240whp (and maybe up to 260whp) for 2000rpms up top will make the car extremely fast when I want it to be.

[Noir]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

My final thoughts on this:

The N54 just is a better track manifold out of the box, as the 3 stage just putters out up top - However, with the addition of MILVS, BBTB, and a larger/better intake - there is still potential there. (I'm going to ask if BPC would be willing to start making those intakes available for N54/3 stage guys with ALFA N...)


I like the idea of the N54 - No DISA, good low end torque - and with breather mods it has the potential to add even more power than what these dynos show. I bet this manifold could do 260whp+ with MILVS and a BBTB - It's a better track manifold for sure. Don't be fooled - even though the 3SM can make the same peak, the N54 may have they potential to make more average power in the last 2000RPM...

For a dual purpose car though, the 3 stage is just hard to beat, especially considering you can make 90% the power (and then some) with better mid range power, it's a better for every day use. Just my .02 cents.

Thanks for taking the time, G!

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Noir

Thanks for taking the time, G!

Caffeine high is wearing off now...

[Noir]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

Caffeine high is wearing off now...

I believe it!:

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

Great info, thanks for compiling and posting all that. My feeling is, my car was a great daily when it was stock. For daily use there was never any need to chase power really. It’s currently making really good power I did run a 13.9 1/4 mile so it’s no slouch.

I feel the N54 Mani is worth pursuing though because based on the comments from Randall I really won’t notice any torque drop with the N54 mani. The drop is measurable on dyno but insignificant from the drivers seat.

But he said the top end is much different and noticably stronger. His exact words were “Expect much lower gas mileage for 2 weeks cause you will love it and be getting on it constantly.” If you trust BPC, well they are fans of this mod and recommended it to me after trying it. No one in this thread has tried it but 2 guys and they and BPC are saying it’s great.

In summary, when I want to go fast I want to go very fast and I rev the motor out. When I want to go slow the revs are low as even stock power was good enough. Having the ability to carry over 240whp (and maybe up to 260whp) for 2000rpms up top will make the car extremely fast when I want it to be.

We'll have to see. I'm planning to drive to BPC for a dyno tune on the my car with a 3 stage/BBTB and the MILVS - and see if they let me test that intake as well.