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      10-14-2015, 03:22 AM   #45
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Big meeting Thursday between the engine manufacturers, they know it is fooked so are trying to fix it.
Are they all going to pull out unless we go back to at least 2.4L V8?

In all seriousness, how much does going turbo save when you are flat out all the time anyway? What is the efficiency gain from a smaller turbo block, it still has to produce a similar amount of power, and tonnes of energy is lost under braking.

I know N/A engines have very little use in modern road car technology, so that is sort of a factor in the direction of the sport, but at the same time it needs to entertain.
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      10-14-2015, 03:40 AM   #46
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^^ But its not just about turbos, its the hybrid energy recovery systems.

You can see just how important the hybrid part of the engine set up is, when ever the energy recovery system fails, the car just become utterly un-competitive.

What ever you think about the 'role' of F1, the technology been developed is mirroring to a degree the way road cars are going, which makes the sport look more 'relevant' to the audience.
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      10-14-2015, 03:41 AM   #47
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100% agree, look at all the fuss that has been made about Hamilton beating Senna's win tally
That seems a bit easier to beat these days with 19 races per season. Also back then, young talent didn't come into a top team aged 20 and have the chance to compete. You had to prove yourself.

If Senna had been put into a capable car from the get go, he may have turned out as underwhelming as Hamilton. What makes the greats the greats is that they could get 110% of a rubbish car.

As to what happens when they are given a really good car, you only have to look at the 2004 season to get the answer to that.
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      10-14-2015, 07:57 AM   #48
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The 1.6l V6 Hybrid is way to complicated and expensive, things will get a big shake up this week.
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      10-14-2015, 08:17 AM   #49
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while its expensive, surely completely redeveloping yet another new engine is even MORE expensive... I'd be really quite surprised if the didnt stick with the current layout for quite a few years yet.
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      10-14-2015, 08:26 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky68 View Post
The 1.6l V6 Hybrid is way to complicated and expensive, things will get a big shake up this week.
Do tell us more
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      10-14-2015, 08:43 AM   #51
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Have a look on Autosport, things are already on the move.

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.p...960.1441570963

V8s will be roaring around the tracks again soon I think
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      10-14-2015, 10:01 AM   #52
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Isn't the article about using this years engine next year

Can't see why Merc/Ferrari would want drop the Hybrid and give up an advantage or let any team use a super reliable V8 after ploughing so much money into its development
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      10-14-2015, 10:07 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Sparky68 View Post
The 1.6l V6 Hybrid is way to complicated and expensive, things will get a big shake up this week.
Good. And that doesn't suprise me, as N54 owners we know how shitty things get with turbos

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Originally Posted by Aragorn30d View Post
while its expensive, surely completely redeveloping yet another new engine is even MORE expensive... I'd be really quite surprised if the didnt stick with the current layout for quite a few years yet.
Isn't that the whole contradiction of FIA policy though. The cost of developing new complex engines is huge. Whereas a plain old 3.0 V10 is simple. The FIA are the ones that kept changing engine rules, forcing redevelopment in the first place.
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      10-14-2015, 10:12 AM   #54
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Isn't the article about using this years engine next year

Can't see why Merc/Ferrari would want drop the Hybrid and give up an advantage or let any team use a super reliable V8 after ploughing so much money into its development
People would have said the same about dropping the V12 to a V10 to a V8 to a 1.6L V6 Turbo with more complex charging systems than the Congestion charge!

You will not get any teams to come into F1 in its current format now as Merc and Ferrari are now at engine capacity, this means you either build your own or hope Honda/Renault manage to get it right.

Given both have had 2 years plus, I cant see that happening.

V8 sounds better, is cheaper and more reliable.
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      10-14-2015, 10:38 AM   #55
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Didn't we get the hybrids because the manufacturers wanted to showcase more fuel efficient options. I think it was Renault or Merc that said they'd leave if hybrids weren't introduced

Yes the current engines are a hideously complicated way of getting it but I'd rather see advances in engines than aero. It's just a shame renault and honda are so bad at making these types of engines.

As a fan though I'd love to see the return of the V8 - maybe with some ERS element, but then I also wanted to see michelin back but who actually decides what happens in f1, the fans? the teams? or whether bernie woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

I think the barriers to new teams are far more ranging than just engines, in 2010 virgin etc weren't getting to within 105%
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      10-14-2015, 10:41 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ZeeWrath View Post
Didn't we get the hybrids because the manufacturers wanted to showcase more fuel efficient options. I think it was Renault or Merc that said they'd leave if hybrids weren't introduced

Yes the current engines are a hideously complicated way of getting it but I'd rather see advances in engines than aero. It's just a shame renault and honda are so bad at making these types of engines.

As a fan though I'd love to see the return of the V8 - maybe with some ERS element, but then I also wanted to see michelin back but who actually decides what happens in f1, the fans? the teams? or whether bernie woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

I think the barriers to new teams are far more ranging than just engines, in 2010 virgin etc weren't getting to within 105%
In 2010 you could buy an off the shelf V8.
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      10-14-2015, 11:02 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Sparky68 View Post
People would have said the same about dropping the V12 to a V10 to a V8 to a 1.6L V6 Turbo with more complex charging systems than the Congestion charge!

You will not get any teams to come into F1 in its current format now as Merc and Ferrari are now at engine capacity, this means you either build your own or hope Honda/Renault manage to get it right.

Given both have had 2 years plus, I cant see that happening.

V8 sounds better, is cheaper and more reliable.
NASCAR has a dead basic engine philosophy IIRC, which allows many to compete.

It's simply not viable for each team to design their own engine that would be on par with the big money teams. This has always been the case in F1, so making engines more complicated really screws the bottom runners.
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      10-14-2015, 11:07 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by ZeeWrath View Post
Didn't we get the hybrids because the manufacturers wanted to showcase more fuel efficient options. I think it was Renault or Merc that said they'd leave if hybrids weren't introduced

Yes the current engines are a hideously complicated way of getting it but I'd rather see advances in engines than aero. It's just a shame renault and honda are so bad at making these types of engines.

As a fan though I'd love to see the return of the V8 - maybe with some ERS element, but then I also wanted to see michelin back but who actually decides what happens in f1, the fans? the teams? or whether bernie woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

I think the barriers to new teams are far more ranging than just engines, in 2010 virgin etc weren't getting to within 105%
I think the point is that F1 technology isn't just for the sport, so with road cars moving turbo, companies like Renault and Mercedes want something from the R&D to be useful for road vehicles. I think F1 is a success in this respect, even prior to the modern turbo era. That said, this shouldn't come at a cost to the entertainment of the sport itself, which it seems to be doing these days. There is a clear engine gap, something there hasn't been for many years now.
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      10-14-2015, 05:51 PM   #59
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It is all very interesting and it's really unclear how to make the whole thing more competitive and better for 'us' the paying customers. The engines have meant Mercedes are dominating, when the engines weren't as much a factor Redbull dominated as the aerodynamics dominated.

Going back to the V8's will make it easier for engine access but I recon you'd find Redbull back at the top with no other real challengers lol.

Let's see anyway.
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      10-15-2015, 12:45 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky68 View Post
The 1.6l V6 Hybrid is way to complicated and expensive, things will get a big shake up this week.
But they are the future for road cars, and as an engine manufacture you have to show the investment in F1 is going to reflect in boosting your image off the track.

Having a V8/V10 now is going against 100% what road cars are doing. Renualt will definitely pull out - Their boss loves the Leaf more than I do!! Mercedes and Ferrari have invested huge amounts already and doing well, so why would they change?? If Ecclestone want VW/Audi in F1, the only way they'll attract them is by moving fowards with hybrid/EV tech given the new boss of VW has given the clearest indication yet about investing in hybrid/EV tech to move on from diesels.

Surely F1 should be there to push the boundaries of hybrid/EV technology. The whole energy structure of the world is trying to move away from fossil fuels, and F1 is in a great position to promote it self as a show-case stage for new technology. Teams have to adapt or die....I like what RedBull have done for F1, but I rather see F1 develop more on the hybrid/EV power unit front rather than go back to V8/V10 units, even if that means a few teams dissappear.

Ecclestone must have an eye on Forumla E. Hong Kong has just signed up for an Forumla E event for next season....F1 might be king of the hill right now, but others would love to take its place.

Just look at the location of the Formula E races already, London, Moscow, Paris, Berlin, Long Beach, Beijing. Don't forget these races are in the middle of a city, not 1-2 hrs away on a empt field. Add Hong Kong to that list, and talks of New York, and you have a race series set in some of the most prominent cities in the world...

Last edited by gangzoom; 10-15-2015 at 12:52 AM.
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      10-15-2015, 02:15 AM   #61
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Short answer to that would be stick the hybrids into BTCC oe WEC and leave F1 to the petrolheads
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      10-15-2015, 03:05 AM   #62
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F1 isnt going back to V8's.

Merc and Renault would be out the door straight away. Honda too.
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      10-15-2015, 03:36 AM   #63
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Stranger things have happened. Merc and Ferrari wont supply us with an engine, Honda cant and Renault dont know wtf they are doing next year.

Bernie does not want possibly 6 cars leaving the grid and he is struggling to attract new teams in because of the hybrid engines
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      10-15-2015, 06:25 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gangzoom View Post
But they are the future for road cars, and as an engine manufacture you have to show the investment in F1 is going to reflect in boosting your image off the track.

Having a V8/V10 now is going against 100% what road cars are doing. Renualt will definitely pull out - Their boss loves the Leaf more than I do!! Mercedes and Ferrari have invested huge amounts already and doing well, so why would they change?? If Ecclestone want VW/Audi in F1, the only way they'll attract them is by moving fowards with hybrid/EV tech given the new boss of VW has given the clearest indication yet about investing in hybrid/EV tech to move on from diesels.

Surely F1 should be there to push the boundaries of hybrid/EV technology. The whole energy structure of the world is trying to move away from fossil fuels, and F1 is in a great position to promote it self as a show-case stage for new technology. Teams have to adapt or die....I like what RedBull have done for F1, but I rather see F1 develop more on the hybrid/EV power unit front rather than go back to V8/V10 units, even if that means a few teams dissappear.

Ecclestone must have an eye on Forumla E. Hong Kong has just signed up for an Forumla E event for next season....F1 might be king of the hill right now, but others would love to take its place.

Just look at the location of the Formula E races already, London, Moscow, Paris, Berlin, Long Beach, Beijing. Don't forget these races are in the middle of a city, not 1-2 hrs away on a empt field. Add Hong Kong to that list, and talks of New York, and you have a race series set in some of the most prominent cities in the world...
There are other FIA series people can enter if they want to race slowly. Formula 1 is meant to be the pinnacle of racing. Formula E is a bit of a borefest. After 5 minutes of watching it's just dull. Not far from the point where it might as well just be computer simulated racing.

The fun of old F1 was the chance for things to go wrong. Engines blowing up, tyres going off, pit stops going wrong, tyres falling off, fuel hose not going in. Slowly all the fun has been taken away, and each race just plays out like a script. All we see these days is Formula Conservation. Hundreds of thousands of people travelling to a single site is hardly environmentally friendly, so why not allow a few extra tyres or use more fuel?
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      10-15-2015, 09:13 AM   #65
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http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ec...-for-red-bull/
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      10-15-2015, 09:48 AM   #66
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your still contracted with Renault, so your not stuck for engines next year, and Renault has previously confirmed they will honour the contract if asked to. I don't see why Merc or Ferrari should be forced to give you an engine when they are already at capacity supplying other teams.

Horner has been doing a lot of back tracking in recent interviews, as if to leave the door open for going back to Renault.

If Redbull spent more time working with Renault, instead of constantly publicly complaining about them(although as said, this has been curtailed recently...) then maybe they could fix their issues.


The other issue you have, if you were an engine manufacturer, would you want to supply Red Bull? who at the first sign of an issue, throw you under a bus?
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