[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Doesn't the G4 board (JB4?) have a surface mount design with the proper filtering and biasing components (caps, resistors, etc.) which were previously deemed as unessesary points of failure. Point being, and as usual, the story delivered is based on what one can deliver.

And as I said in another thread, take anything you hear from a tuner with a grain of salt. In the end, they all need our $$ to exist. Some are in it for the long term and others for the short.

There are two upcoming boards and both include input filtering, DAC outputs, CAN, power supplies, etc. The G4 is like a JB3 on steroids and the PRO is a much more advanced completely new design. The G4 board is intended for the milder crowd and will be offered at a lower cost while the PRO is intended for the heavily modified crowd and includes some special features just for them.

Mike

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Doesn't the G4 board (JB4?) have a surface mount design with the proper filtering and biasing components (caps, resistors, etc.) which were previously deemed as unessesary points of failure. Point being, and as usual, the story delivered is based on what one can deliver.

And as I said in another thread, take anything you hear from a tuner with a grain of salt. In the end, they all need our $$ to exist. Some are in it for the long term and others for the short.

I personally don't have a dog in this fight, but to be fair, it seems like things have changed a bit since BMS thought these features were unnecessary. People were not running meth and nitrous back then were they?

I don't know, I'm no expert but opinions and requirements for safety do change with progress.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

There are two upcoming boards and both include input filtering, DAC outputs, CAN, power supplies, etc. The G4 is like a JB3 on steroids and the PRO is a much more advanced completely new design. The G4 board is intended for the milder crowd and will be offered at a lower cost while the PRO is intended for the heavily modified crowd and includes some special features just for them.

Mike

So BMS has claimed that the JB3 Pro will be able to do everything the current competitors (Procede) can do, and even more... Can you give up a few hints of these 'features' that currently are unavailable with the procede?

With the recent advancements with the Procede Command Center, with all the adaptation resets, Autotuning, shift light, dash gauges, etc., I just can't what BMS has up their sleeve that's not out. It must be pretty stellar.

[PKumarM3]

Originally Posted by Sniz

also the fact that BMS in probably the last year to year and a half mocked the Procede time and time again for all these 'unnecessary' features that BMS is now scrambling to integrate into their tune. It just rubs me the wrong way.

thats all.

wouldn't you say thats more to cater to the market?

sometimes its not all personal driven banter, but the desire to make $.

i don't even know what to make about this war. one side makes childish remarks - and even if provoked - it doesn't make sense to carry yourself like that and speaks VOLUMES about the company.

the other side either has their hands cut off and has to speak through a third party.

at the end of the day - i am not looking to set records but want a piggyback thats going to make my car quicker and not give me major troubles down the road. my opinion does not mean much, but from the outside of the bubble - its just a shame how the "superior" company handles itself. Don't go at the bait - it makes you look like a child.

If at the end of the day, your product is better, it will sell for itself.

Do you see Porsche comparing itself to Audi or BMW? no way.

"If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." : Matthew 5:38-40

[DefactoM6]

Personal driven banter is often driven by the desire to make $...

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by PKumarM3

wouldn't you say thats more to cater to the market?

sometimes its not all personal driven banter, but the desire to make $.

i don't even know what to make about this war. one side makes childish remarks - and even if provoked - it doesn't make sense to carry yourself like that and speaks VOLUMES about the company.

the other side either has their hands cut off and has to speak through a third party.

at the end of the day - i am not looking to set records but want a piggyback thats going to make my car quicker and not give me major troubles down the road. my opinion does not mean much, but from the outside of the bubble - its just a shame how the "superior" company handles itself. Don't go at the bait - it makes you look like a child.

If at the end of the day, your product is better, it will sell for itself.

Do you see Porsche comparing itself to Audi or BMW? no way.

"If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." : Matthew 5:38-40

See, that's where I think it becomes hard. If Shiv/Vishnu wasn't posting one here relentlessly explaining how the procede (and the N54 in general) actually works, people wouldn't see the need for the superior capabilities of the Procede. Plus, if I had as many RD and engineering hours into a tune as Vishnu does, I would be furious to see so many misinformed and downright oblivious people out here bantering about how "Both tunes are the same, the Procede is just 3 times as much money--Overpriced BMW joke" That would really boil my blood, and I'm surprised how 'restrained' the Vishnu team is when faced with some of the arguments they encounter here.

When it comes to the importance of them promoting on here...take my case for example. Bought a JB3 the 2nd day I had my car last summer. Didn't do much research, just saw that it was cheaper than the procede and others, and thought that was going to be the only mod I'd do. Now that I have everythign short of turbo upgrades, I felt the need for the superior capabilities, timing control primarily. I was well aware of the 'unsafeness' of the JB raising boost x2 and having no timing control, but that didn't bother me until I started pushing it. If Shiv hadn't been so explicitly detailed with explaining why certain aspects of tuning are important, I wouldn't have bothered to upgrade.

What's sad is how many people just don't have a clue how EITHER tune works---and still post up complete rubbish. My favorites are in the "Which tune to buy" threads. There are always 15 people right off the bat that say "JB3! It's just as good as the PRocede but only half the cost!" I completely understand why Vishnu doesn't give up on informing people and [attempting] to set people straight when they're wrong.

FWIW, I think Mike is a good vendor and all-around good guy...just caught in the middle of promoting the JB3. BMS was also great to work with, and very helpful. However, at the end of the day, the product is the most important thing, and I'm glad that I know WHY I have the tune that I do.

Sorry for the Saturday night rant sesh.

[PKumarM3]

and honestly, some of the guys on the internet were so happy when Audi made that "BMW, Your Move" ad, and BMW responded to it and made a HUGE "Check Mate" ad.

I love my BMWs. I am a BMW CCA member and I am a BMW enthusiast. I was embarassed that BMW even responded to Audi. BMW has always been the standard and benchmark as to what performance sedans and sports sedans are measured to. When a sports compact comes out - they don't compare it to the RS4, they compare it to the M3. All cars are compared to BMWs.

When a product is so good that it can sell itself, there has to be no need for anyone from that company to "stoop down to the bashing levels" of the other competing company. Let your product do the talking for you.

Does Rolls Royce ever need to prove to others that it is a superior car to any Mercedes sedan? No way. Customers realize that it is better - by obviously looking at its results, but also feeling the superiorness of the car. It has presence. It sells itself.

Oh well.

[PKumarM3]

BrianMN - i agree with you that there should be a need for education. But going after EVERY single thread, seems foolish and childish. Its almost like, trying too hard.

I understand that the Procede is a superior tune in the sense of its technological superiority. it has superior components and its price exhibits that. But having to defend itself after each stab by the other company - that just sounds too excessive.

There are a million and one, no two, no three....idiots on the internet that will talk out of their buttholes. But that does not mean you have to address each and everyone.

Allow your product to be the benchmark as to what others compare themselves to.

[DefactoM6]

Liiiiitle bit of an apples to oranges comparo there, no? Both sides take shots at the other. Nobody is innocent. I prefer to stick to the facts. Unfortunately, many people are swayed by popular opinion and heresy. This provides the opening for the shot taking and the fanboism. Unfortunately, when the benefits of a product are felt, and are not really known until something goes REALLY wrong, you have to point out all the differences again and again. Even though he pops in a zinger here or there, Shiv usually is pretty straightforward in his posts. At least I can usually find information in the posts. And I'll take information and knowledge over smiles, hugs and marketing any day of the week. Information is king.

And Shiv has been the benchmark that the JB3 has been striving to for some time, given that the JB3 seems to constantly ape the Procede...but not before bashing all features that it later apes.

P, I lol'd at the bible ref from you of all people...

[wonsungnabi]

Originally Posted by PKumarM3

BrianMN - i agree with you that there should be a need for education. But going after EVERY single thread, seems foolish and childish. Its almost like, trying too hard.

I understand that the Procede is a superior tune in the sense of its technological superiority. it has superior components and its price exhibits that. But having to defend itself after each stab by the other company - that just sounds too excessive.

There are a million and one, no two, no three....idiots on the internet that will talk out of their buttholes. But that does not mean you have to address each and everyone.

Allow your product to be the benchmark as to what others compare themselves to.

[PKumarM3]

Its quite sophomoric on both sides. Its back and forth, and I understand thats what marketing is all about, but there's a reason we all go towards one superior brand over the other. Usually its not because they bashed the other and you believe the bash - its because its a superior product.

Thats like me picking one deli over another because one deli costs 2x as much and says the other deli copies them. What does them copying the other have to do with it being superior or inferior? People can invent as much as they want, but someone can take the same idea and perfect it and make it a work of art - cough ... cough.. Mark Zuckerberg..cough cough The Social Network - in theaters now.

At least we are in agreement about one thing - the procede is a superior form of technology. Sadly, even if things are superior, if they leave a bad taste in your mouth, users or potential users may be dissuaded because of that distasteful behavior.

If your product is TRULY superior, it will outlast and will eventually win. Going after every person who argues otherwise, just makes you look like your trying TOO hard.

There is a reason every grown man drools when they see a GT3RS on the street. Its not because Porsche tells me that BMW is good, but they definitely copy most of our technology. Its because we can physically see how superior it is and our senses tell us that.

Let the product do the speaking for itself.

[AlterZgo]

Originally Posted by PKumarM3

Do you see Porsche comparing itself to Audi or BMW? no way.

Not Audi or BMW, but Porsche did get all in a tizzy over the Nissan GTR's Nürburgring lap time beating the prior gen 911 GT2 and they pouted and insisted there was no way the GTR was stock, etc.

So, as high end of a sports car maker as Porsche is, they have no problem dropping into the mud when they feel it's necessary.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by PKumarM3

Its quite sophomoric on both sides. Its back and forth, and I understand thats what marketing is all about, but there's a reason we all go towards one superior brand over the other. Usually its not because they bashed the other and you believe the bash - its because its a superior product.

Thats like me picking one deli over another because one deli costs 2x as much and says the other deli copies them. What does them copying the other have to do with it being superior or inferior? People can invent as much as they want, but someone can take the same idea and perfect it and make it a work of art - cough ... cough.. Mark Zuckerberg..cough cough The Social Network - in theaters now.

At least we are in agreement about one thing - the procede is a superior form of technology. Sadly, even if things are superior, if they leave a bad taste in your mouth, users or potential users may be dissuaded because of that distasteful behavior.

If your product is TRULY superior, it will outlast and will eventually win. Going after every person who argues otherwise, just makes you look like your trying TOO hard.

There is a reason every grown man drools when they see a GT3RS on the street. Its not because Porsche tells me that BMW is good, but they definitely copy most of our technology. Its because we can physically see how superior it is and our senses tell us that.

Let the product do the speaking for itself.

My argument for That is: everyone knows Porsche is superior. Our N54 tuning market is so small (only people who own or have a vested interest in the car are interested in the tunes available for it. So how do people go about seeking advice and information? They ask on Here and get rubbish for advice. What I'm saying is that some people trust what everyone and anyone that writes on here, as if they are a subject matter expert. which is obviously Not the case.

[lyndon_h]

The analogies between cars and N54 tunes are apple and oranges comparisons. I get where you're coming from, but the difference is that anyone with a brain knows that a high end 911/Bentley/Ferrari is superior to a Yugo/Honda/BMW in almost any case. Every kid grew up with a poster of a Porsche on their wall. Motortend/Car and Driver have an edition devoted to the 911 every year. The education for the fore mentioned products have already been done. Hell, even my wife knows that a Porsche is a car company that makes expensive but capable sports cars. But does she know the difference between a JB3 and a Procede?

The more appropriate question would be do you know the difference between them. If we were to have a tuner test, I bet you just 25% of the OWNERS of either tune could tell you the difference between them. It is for that reason that it is important that Shiv and Mike step in and speak up about their/BMS's product. And for whats its worth, its more important for Vishnu to step in and provide insight as to why their product is a good value when its priced higher than BMS's product. I have no problem with them stepping in educating a consumer whenever a potential consumer expresses his desire for a tune and I'm not sure why anyone would (or why they would even care).

NOTE: BrianMN submitted his post above as i was composing this. So the similarities in coincidence.

[fisherbln]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

My argument for That is: everyone knows Porsche is superior. Our N54 tuning market is so small (only people who own or have a vested interest in the car are interested in the tunes available for it. So how do people go about seeking advice and information? They ask on Here and get rubbish for advice. What I'm saying is that some people trust what everyone and anyone that writes on here, as if they are a subject matter expert. which is obviously Not the case.

+1. Porsche and BMW don't have to prove that their cars are better because it is readily apparent with data that most people understand easily. However, the majority of users looking to buy a tune don't know (or understand) enough about engine management to tell the difference between the JB3 and the Procede. This is why it is necessary to Shiv to explain what makes his product better so often.

[Bmwn54]

I feel sorry for this guy. Hope everything works out.

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

See, that's where I think it becomes hard. If Shiv/Vishnu wasn't posting one here relentlessly explaining how the procede (and the N54 in general) actually works, people wouldn't see the need for the superior capabilities of the Procede. Plus, if I had as many RD and engineering hours into a tune as Vishnu does, I would be furious to see so many misinformed and downright oblivious people out here bantering about how "Both tunes are the same, the Procede is just 3 times as much money--Overpriced BMW joke" That would really boil my blood, and I'm surprised how 'restrained' the Vishnu team is when faced with some of the arguments they encounter here.

When it comes to the importance of them promoting on here...take my case for example. Bought a JB3 the 2nd day I had my car last summer. Didn't do much research, just saw that it was cheaper than the procede and others, and thought that was going to be the only mod I'd do. Now that I have everythign short of turbo upgrades, I felt the need for the superior capabilities, timing control primarily. I was well aware of the 'unsafeness' of the JB raising boost x2 and having no timing control, but that didn't bother me until I started pushing it. If Shiv hadn't been so explicitly detailed with explaining why certain aspects of tuning are important, I wouldn't have bothered to upgrade.

What's sad is how many people just don't have a clue how EITHER tune works---and still post up complete rubbish. My favorites are in the "Which tune to buy" threads. There are always 15 people right off the bat that say "JB3! It's just as good as the PRocede but only half the cost!" I completely understand why Vishnu doesn't give up on informing people and [attempting] to set people straight when they're wrong.

FWIW, I think Mike is a good vendor and all-around good guy...just caught in the middle of promoting the JB3. BMS was also great to work with, and very helpful. However, at the end of the day, the product is the most important thing, and I'm glad that I know WHY I have the tune that I do.

Sorry for the Saturday night rant sesh.

Unfortunately, it is true. JB3 is *almost* as good as Procede at 1/2-1/3 of the cost, no matter how someone would wash your brain.

Procede is more expensive because they don't manufacture their product and they use a Haltech device as a base instead. So they have to add their own profits on top of the original manufacturer profits. The only thing Procede has better than the JB3 is the "timing control", which adds/removes timing on top of the ECU timing (so it does not control it fully). Most of the time when running on proper bolt-ons the Procede does not alter timing, so in those cases it is equivalent to the JB3. The CAN boost target access is another plus but JB3 emulates the boost target very very well these days.

That's it. The other things besides the power adding stuff really don't matter, they are just marketing gimmicks.

PS: I have the BMW PPK and I intend to go with GIAC. It's just easy to see how the marketing washes brains on this forum.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Unfortunately, it is true. JB3 is *almost* as good as Procede at 1/2-1/3 of the cost, no matter how someone would wash your brain.

Procede is more expensive because they don't manufacture their product and they use a Haltech device as a base instead. So they have to add their own profits on top of the original manufacturer profits. The only thing Procede has better than the JB3 is the "timing control", which adds/removes timing on top of the ECU timing (so it does not control it fully). Most of the time when running on proper bolt-ons the Procede does not alter timing, so in those cases it is equivalent to the JB3. The CAN boost target access is another plus but JB3 emulates the boost target very very well these days.

That's it. The other things besides the power adding stuff really don't matter, they are just marketing gimmicks.

PS: I have the BMW PPK and I intend to go with GIAC. It's just easy to see how the marketing washes brains on this forum.

Prime example of a misinformed, uninformed, or choosing to be oblivious person...in exact fashion as described above. So sad/ funny/ bad.

There are things a wise man chooses to be ignorant, but tuning his car shouldn't be one g them

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Most of the time when running on proper bolt-ons the Procede does not alter timing, so in those cases it is equivalent to the JB3.

That's so much of a generalization that it completely misses the detals.......and even BMS calls this a "details" game.

I run about 30% ignition correction on my Procede and according to my datalogs Procede is ALWAYS actively removing up to 1 degree of timing advance.

That's about how much my engine needs to avoid going into the knock zone completely.

Point being that if you run any degree of ignition correction then you are always actively introducing timing retard. If you experience a knock event, then the DME pulls out it's traditional 3-4 degrees of advance and the Procede does not hinder that adjustment in any way.

So in that sense - yes the Procede is just like the JB in that it gets out of the way of factory safety mechanisms.

I can control BOTH timing and boost in very fine increments and I can see my timing curve without the hassle of switching over to another tool like BT.

As a tuning tool, the Procede software is miles ahead in my experience.....not just in convenience but in adjustability as well.

Tell me how you would add-in 1 degree of timing retard with the current JB or even GIAC for that case?

Running meth is a whole different ball-game and that is where you see a lot of Procede users running zero ignition correction because the octane is giving you more timing headroom.

[dzenno]

Ilma, let me try to answer this as if I was a fanboy of another tune that didn't have timing control: "with the "right" tuning why would you want to add in -1 timing retard...we don't see a need for that level of control and the DME will do it all for you"

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Ilma, let me try to answer this as if I was a fanboy of another tune that didn't have timing control: "with the "right" tuning why would you want to add in -1 timing retard...we don't see a need for that level of control and the DME will do it all for you"

For me, having a smooth upward sloping timing curve with no dips means there are no knock events and the combustion chamber is happy.

You very well know that the DME targets a standard stock curve and will pull out timing in reaction to knock......because as we all know the DME listens for knock.

Up to the user whether they want to reactively have timing adjusted in reaction to knock or whether they want to proactively introduce enough timing correction so as to avoid the knock event.

So fine tuning by 1-2 degrees on a traditional timing curve that advances up to 12-14 degrees is proportionally a significant adjusment.

You should not minimize the magnitude of such an adjustment.

Based on 12 degrees of advance, even just 1 degree of adjustment translates into a change of 8%, 2 degrees = 16% etc.

Hell, there are vendors and members on here that say a 10 HP increase in power is a good gain.....yet that amounts to only a 3% gain in power on 300 HP.

So to me, it is statistically significant.

Of course, this ignores the entire argument of using meth as a form of timing control. And it also ignores that at some point, even the Procede has a limited range upon which to influence timing if you run too much boost for your mods and octane.

I was simply responding to the earlier post that both JB and Procede are basically the same.

But to each their own.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Unfortunately, it is true. JB3 is *almost* as good as Procede at 1/2-1/3 of the cost, no matter how someone would wash your brain.

Procede is more expensive because they don't manufacture their product and they use a Haltech device as a base instead. So they have to add their own profits on top of the original manufacturer profits. The only thing Procede has better than the JB3 is the "timing control", which adds/removes timing on top of the ECU timing (so it does not control it fully). Most of the time when running on proper bolt-ons the Procede does not alter timing, so in those cases it is equivalent to the JB3. The CAN boost target access is another plus but JB3 emulates the boost target very very well these days.

That's it. The other things besides the power adding stuff really don't matter, they are just marketing gimmicks.

PS: I have the BMW PPK and I intend to go with GIAC. It's just easy to see how the marketing washes brains on this forum.

Bad/wrong info on all accounts.