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      02-19-2018, 12:49 PM   #23
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I'm not sure if its a phev but the new insight looks pretty good

Thatís a Hybrid

No plug in with that
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      02-19-2018, 02:18 PM   #24
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Tons of used low mileage Model S for sale in LA. Look on Tesla's website. But need to logic check you... your going to buy a new electric car just to save on the cost of fuel by driving one of the other cars you already own? Not sure how that makes any sense.
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      02-19-2018, 02:51 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
Not a bad idea
-300,000 mile service life like a land cruiser
- I've got ARB bumpers for armor in traffic
- maintenance is cheap and easy
- even with high mileage it hardly depreciates

But I'm still loosing a lot in gas
Gas is cheaper than buying a new car. My buddy loved DDing his FJ for years.
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      02-19-2018, 03:07 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Tons of used low mileage Model S for sale in LA. Look on Tesla's website. But need to logic check you... your going to buy a new electric car just to save on the cost of fuel by driving one of the other cars you already own? Not sure how that makes any sense.
Getting a new electric car so I can drive the electric car to save money on fuel/ maintenance/ wear and tear rather than commute m-f in my M3 or FJ.

Cheapest used Model S with autopilot 1.0 on the tesla website is $56,200... it does fall out of my listed criteria
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      02-19-2018, 03:15 PM   #27
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Gas is cheaper than buying a new car. My buddy loved DDing his FJ for years.
That is still an option...

I think what ruined me was leasing my Spark EV which pretty much came to $70 a month after cashing in all my incentives.

At $70 a month I was without a doubt saving money driving that thing vs either my FJ or M3.

Also got spoiled by only having to do maintenance on my FJ or M3 once a year now.

And I can see myself getting spoiled by having driving aides take over in traffic.

But I can see that as an option... just let my Trail Teams FJ take the commuting hit... just leave earlier in the AM to avoid traffic and drop by the gym at night before going home to avoid traffic.

That way I can stretch for a Porsche 911T or Cayman GTS this year... hmmm
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      02-19-2018, 04:01 PM   #28
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Hmmm ran the idea of me daily driving the FJ by my wife...

she doesn’t like that idea cause I’ll be home later. Also she reminded me that she wants her G Wagon (won’t be a regular G wagon... it would replace my FJ + she’s given me the green light to do an expedition build on it... so think 1 inch lift, Ko2 tires, german bead lock wheels, proper roof rack) before I get my Porsche 911.

Maybe I can convince Metrolink to run hourly going south in the AM and north in the PM so I can go back to commuting by folding bike + train.

The advantage of metrolink is that there is a stop right by my office and my choices of stops 1 mile north of my house or 1 mile south of my house. The problem is that going home while everyone is heading away from DTLA I have to head from north from South OC which means I’d have to catch the only one heading back or wait 2 hours... which means I have to leave exactly at 5pm which never happens with my appointments
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      02-19-2018, 10:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
Getting a new electric car so I can drive the electric car to save money on fuel/ maintenance/ wear and tear rather than commute m-f in my M3 or FJ.

Cheapest used Model S with autopilot 1.0 on the tesla website is $56,200... it does fall out of my listed criteria
We can't help you if you don't understand economics. If you want an EV with Level 3 autonomy, you need to either wait, or get a Tesla.
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      02-20-2018, 12:09 AM   #30
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We can't help you if you don't understand economics. If you want an EV with Level 3 autonomy, you need to either wait, or get a Tesla.
Ok let's do the math. Here's a break down comparing a paid off e90 M3 vs Clarity PHEV base model current lease special.

Keep in mind these costs are not based on factory scheduled intervals, but intervals if you want to keep your M3 for a long time.

- Gas (based on todays rates at the Shell station I go to) with a 50 mile round trip commute= $234.24 per month
- Oil Change using that Twin Turbo power done at an indy shop every 5000 miles= $41.67 per month
- Battery every 4 to 5 years $300 if you don't do it yourself $200 if you do= $4 per month
- Brake fluid once a year= $16.67 (I think looking at my receipts thats based on ATE... since then I've been using fancy Castrol SRF which is even more)
- diff/ trans/ power steering fluid + plugs every 30,000 miles= $17.58
- Rod bearings every 60k miles (these bearings are going to be a wear item for me until there is a documented 100% solution) = $33.23 a month
- tires (I run an aggressive camber with PS4S)= $113.08 a month if they last 10,000 miles or half that if they last 20,000 miles

so that's $460.47 a month in running cost if I daily drove my M3. That's not including cost of brakes, repairs to the body from wear and tear, new windshield which would likely happen at least once in 3 years knowing my luck, and any other unexpected costs or the cooling refresh or cost of belts that should be done at 60k. Also does not include the depreciation from adding on more miles.

Clarity PHEV base lease special right now is $329 x36 most with $3999 at the start = $430.94 a month + $9 in electricity (I get half my charge at work) - another $450 rebate from the electric company for having an EV = $427.44 a month. And that's using a pretty bad lease rate too. As far as maintenance cost, if it is anything like my Spark the maintenance cost was just a pair of tires that I got for $150 over the 3 years I had the car.

Interestingly with my Spark EV after the incentives I got I'm essentially paying $70 a month + $9 in electricity and my total car insurance was cheaper with the Spark on the plan as my daily. I'll admit the only part of economics I messed up on with that was I should've turned around and invested that difference of $380 into different stocks each month for the last 3 years.

So there you have it a paid off M3 running cost per month with a 50 mile round trip commute is $460/ mos vs leasing a Clarity PHEV at $427.44 a month (it gets even cheaper per month by at least $100 by my estimates if you decide to just finance the Clarity and drive it over 10 years).

For kicks using the teslanomics calculator a fully loaded Model 3 will cost $1011.29 per mos if you add in all the running costs (except tires and brakes) and a stripper model 3 with the smaller battery + autopilot would cost $747.54 a mos.... but that's over 5 years. If the fully loaded Model 3 will last at least 10 years with ZERO issues then running cost on the tesla is about even with the M3.

Also last I checked/ googled Tesla Autopilot currently is considered level 2 autonomous... maybe high enough to be considered level 3. The Clarity comes standard with Hondasense + Low speed Follow which puts it solidly in level 2 which is just fine for traffic.

Anyhow, thanks for making me do the math cause if I spread it out over 10 years then monthly cost for a fully loaded Model 3 (with zero issues) is about even with the M3 and the monthly cost on a Clarity is even less over 10 years

Last edited by PandaM3; 02-20-2018 at 12:15 AM.
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      02-20-2018, 07:23 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by PandaM3 View Post
Ok let's do the math. Here's a break down comparing a paid off e90 M3 vs Clarity PHEV base model current lease special.

Keep in mind these costs are not based on factory scheduled intervals, but intervals if you want to keep your M3 for a long time.

- Gas (based on todays rates at the Shell station I go to) with a 50 mile round trip commute= $234.24 per month
- Oil Change using that Twin Turbo power done at an indy shop every 5000 miles= $41.67 per month
- Battery every 4 to 5 years $300 if you don't do it yourself $200 if you do= $4 per month
- Brake fluid once a year= $16.67 (I think looking at my receipts thats based on ATE... since then I've been using fancy Castrol SRF which is even more)
- diff/ trans/ power steering fluid + plugs every 30,000 miles= $17.58
- Rod bearings every 60k miles (these bearings are going to be a wear item for me until there is a documented 100% solution) = $33.23 a month
- tires (I run an aggressive camber with PS4S)= $113.08 a month if they last 10,000 miles or half that if they last 20,000 miles

so that's $460.47 a month in running cost if I daily drove my M3. That's not including cost of brakes, repairs to the body from wear and tear, new windshield which would likely happen at least once in 3 years knowing my luck, and any other unexpected costs or the cooling refresh or cost of belts that should be done at 60k. Also does not include the depreciation from adding on more miles.

Clarity PHEV base lease special right now is $329 x36 most with $3999 at the start = $430.94 a month + $9 in electricity (I get half my charge at work) - another $450 rebate from the electric company for having an EV = $427.44 a month. And that's using a pretty bad lease rate too. As far as maintenance cost, if it is anything like my Spark the maintenance cost was just a pair of tires that I got for $150 over the 3 years I had the car.

Interestingly with my Spark EV after the incentives I got I'm essentially paying $70 a month + $9 in electricity and my total car insurance was cheaper with the Spark on the plan as my daily. I'll admit the only part of economics I messed up on with that was I should've turned around and invested that difference of $380 into different stocks each month for the last 3 years.

So there you have it a paid off M3 running cost per month with a 50 mile round trip commute is $460/ mos vs leasing a Clarity PHEV at $427.44 a month (it gets even cheaper per month by at least $100 by my estimates if you decide to just finance the Clarity and drive it over 10 years).

For kicks using the teslanomics calculator a fully loaded Model 3 will cost $1011.29 per mos if you add in all the running costs (except tires and brakes) and a stripper model 3 with the smaller battery + autopilot would cost $747.54 a mos.... but that's over 5 years. If the fully loaded Model 3 will last at least 10 years with ZERO issues then running cost on the tesla is about even with the M3.

Also last I checked/ googled Tesla Autopilot currently is considered level 2 autonomous... maybe high enough to be considered level 3. The Clarity comes standard with Hondasense + Low speed Follow which puts it solidly in level 2 which is just fine for traffic.

Anyhow, thanks for making me do the math cause if I spread it out over 10 years then monthly cost for a fully loaded Model 3 (with zero issues) is about even with the M3 and the monthly cost on a Clarity is even less over 10 years
LOL. I commute 170 miles a day round trip. 25 miles just gets me to cell service . Then after another 30 miles I deal with Northern Virginia traffic. So I'm well versed in the costs of commuting in a BMW. Granted the E90 M3 is not the ideal commuter; I do have a friend at work, who is a member on the M4 Forum, who daily commutes in his M4. I don't think he has a 25 mile one way commute, but I can't see it being any less than 20. I had another friend I used to work with (he passed away last year) who did daily in a E90 M3 (his track car was a Factory-Five Cobra he built from my sister's 5.0 Mustang), without any mention of the absorbent costs; he definitely had over a 25-mile one way commute. So commuting in a M car is not unheard of. I think your monthly costs are way over estimated (e.g. I come up with $172/month at 1,000 miles per month and gas @ 3.08 and assuming 18 MPG). And based on your ridiculous maintenance plan on the M3... But really if the FJ is the logical choice. Running the FJ 50 miles a day can't be that expensive and not more than the purchase (i.e. not lease) of a $47,000 EV plus running costs.


Again, if you want a car that drives itself in traffic, then you are quite limited. If you want an EV that is semi autonomous then you are even more limited. And there is the concept of negotiating the price down on a used Telsa S from the LA area; I saw at least 20 on Tesla's website.

Good luck with the search.
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      02-20-2018, 12:42 PM   #32
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LOL. I commute 170 miles a day round trip. 25 miles just gets me to cell service . Then after another 30 miles I deal with Northern Virginia traffic. So I'm well versed in the costs of commuting in a BMW. Granted the E90 M3 is not the ideal commuter; I do have a friend at work, who is a member on the M4 Forum, who daily commutes in his M4. I don't think he has a 25 mile one way commute, but I can't see it being any less than 20. I had another friend I used to work with (he passed away last year) who did daily in a E90 M3 (his track car was a Factory-Five Cobra he built from my sister's 5.0 Mustang), without any mention of the absorbent costs; he definitely had over a 25-mile one way commute. So commuting in a M car is not unheard of. I think your monthly costs are way over estimated (e.g. I come up with $172/month at 1,000 miles per month and gas @ 3.08 and assuming 18 MPG). And based on your ridiculous maintenance plan on the M3... But really if the FJ is the logical choice. Running the FJ 50 miles a day can't be that expensive and not more than the purchase (i.e. not lease) of a $47,000 EV plus running costs.


Again, if you want a car that drives itself in traffic, then you are quite limited. If you want an EV that is semi autonomous then you are even more limited. And there is the concept of negotiating the price down on a used Telsa S from the LA area; I saw at least 20 on Tesla's website.

Good luck with the search.
Cost of gas in these parts is $3.66 a gallon. My M3 will do just a bit over 200 miles before I need to fill it up which is a weeks worth of driving. Thatís where I come up with $234.24 a month.

Also Iím using the proposed maintenance schedule on this forum + the cost of rod bearings every 60k to 75k miles but thatís a whole other discussion and I donít think we want this thread to go 100 pages long... lol

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=778602

But yes you are correct... commuting in my FJ would be cheaper... really just need to worry about gas at $234.24 a mos (it probably gets even worse mpg than my M3 & I still spoil my FJ with the same 91 octane Shell nectar that my M3 drinks from) + cost of oil every 5k (itís not picky eaither so I just use Mobil 1 synthetic) + fluids every so often + cooling system refresh around 80k.

Now if I really wanted to save even more $$$ I would lease another short range electric car like a Fiat 500e or Smart EV... (sadly there is no cheap zero down $70 a mos spark EV lease anymore)

However Iíve grown tired of sitting in traffic... I know 1st world problems... but I am willing to spend up to around the monthly cost of daily driving my M3 for driving assistance.

I did consider the Leaf as well with Nissanís pro-pilot which would probably be close to even to the FJís running costs, but I donít just want another short/ moderate range EV.

Btw I donít think you can negotiate on any of the CPOíd Tesla prices from the website... so with Autopilot the cheapest one was around $55k and you donít get the $7500 fed rebate + $450 socal edison rebate. So an early release Model 3 with all the upgrades will still be cheaper... but I would need to keep it 10 years for it to be equivalent to the running cost on the M3. On the other hand one can wait for the shorter range Model 3 and order it bare bones + autopilot however that will likely not be able to take advantage of the $7500 tax credit by the time that rolls out. Also what is the likelihood of a Model 3 going 10 years without any expensive out of warranty repairs needed.

I dunno... I think Iím convincing myself to just get the Clarity PHEV... after all the incentives it comes out to $25k and it has level 2 autonomy which is just fine in traffic + enough EV range for me not to drop by any gas stations.
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      02-20-2018, 01:15 PM   #33
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Why are you running an FJ on premium? If anything you're losing a smidge of mpg and paying more for no reason.
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      02-20-2018, 01:24 PM   #34
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Why are you running an FJ on premium? If anything you're losing a smidge of mpg and paying more for no reason.
I get less range on regular that to me it's a small price to pay.
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      02-20-2018, 01:56 PM   #35
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Why are you running an FJ on premium? If anything you're losing a smidge of mpg and paying more for no reason.
I get less range on regular that to me it's a small price to pay.
My mistake, looks like Toyota actually mapped those things for 91 for LEV ratings. So yes, 91 or higher is likely required.
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      02-20-2018, 01:58 PM   #36
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Why are you running an FJ on premium? If anything you're losing a smidge of mpg and paying more for no reason.
I get less range on regular that to me it's a small price to pay.
Scientifically that doesn't hold water, but okay.
You're probably right, but it doesn't cost much more overall with how little I drive it.
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      02-20-2018, 01:59 PM   #37
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Why are you running an FJ on premium? If anything you're losing a smidge of mpg and paying more for no reason.
I get less range on regular that to me it's a small price to pay.
Scientifically that doesn't hold water, but okay.
You're probably right, but it doesn't cost much more overall with how little I drive it.
Sorry, stealth edit, didn't realize those did ask for premium.
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      02-20-2018, 02:31 PM   #38
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Sorry, stealth edit, didn't realize those did ask for premium.
Youíre not completely wrong... to get the claimed MPG and hp in the user manual Toyota Recommends running premium. However the same engine in the Tacoma/ 4 runner I think makes less power and less hp cause they recommend regular in the user manual. (Something along those lines... it was 10 years ago since I looked into it)
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      02-21-2018, 12:32 AM   #39
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PandaM3, if you're getting free electricity at work, just buy a bolt. it has enough range and the stop and go assistance you're looking for, for about $36k before incentives.
with the 230 mile range, you could only charge at work and have enough to drive around on the weekend. if charging at work was free for me, it would make my mind up pretty quick that i was buying the bolt.
the smart costs me about $30-40 a month to charge at home.
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      02-22-2018, 11:03 PM   #40
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Not sure what your underlying premise is. You refer to both the cost of gas and the environment. If it's the environment, buying an EV is likely more damaging on a build to disposal scale than a similar gas powered vehicle. Since you don't say where you live, we have no idea to what extent your electrical utility is fossil fuel fired which is a significant factor in determining the overall efficacy of purported environmental benefits to EVs.

My advice below is predicated on assuming you live in a region served by an electrical utility that uses fossil fuels to generate electricity for either primary or secondary demand, and if it's coal ... it's even worse for the environment than any IC drivetrain would ever be. If, however, you live in an area served by hydro or nuclear, that changes the environmental equation significantly (habitat damage and other risks not factored in).

However, the cost of gas is a valid criteria given the length of your commute Since you're on the waiting list anyway, I might suggest waiting for the 2019 Mazda 3 and HCCI which will provide substantial gas savings and maybe better from an overall cost/leasing perspective. I would also look at conventional hybrids like the Accord Hybrid or the Hyundai Ioniq BEV before looking at a PHEV because of my views on PHEVs or EVs in general.

As for the semi-autonomous, I can't offer any comment. If it's that important, it will limit your choices and (as much as I detest Tesla as a company) lead you back to the Model 3.
Environmentalists seem to only consider a vehicles tailpipe emissions. The impact of acquisition, production, transportation, disposal, etc. is of little consequence.
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      02-22-2018, 11:11 PM   #41
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that requires too much thought and will blur their message. the powers that be have spoken and told us what we want.
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      02-23-2018, 11:53 AM   #42
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Environmentalists seem to only consider a vehicles tailpipe emissions. The impact of acquisition, production, transportation, disposal, etc. is of little consequence.
I know ... Elon Musk is great at peddling Kool-Aid though. Actually, what is more hypocritical than the factors you cite is their wilful ignorance as to the GHG's created by generating the electricity to charge their precious EV's.
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      02-24-2018, 03:40 PM   #43
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I'm in the same boat as you, OP, except my Model 3 won't be ready until the end of the year and Spark EV lease expires in June 2019 so I have some time to shop around. If you can wait, the 2018 Nissan Leaf might be something to look into.
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      02-24-2018, 08:30 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Not sure what your underlying premise is. You refer to both the cost of gas and the environment. If it's the environment, buying an EV is likely more damaging on a build to disposal scale than a similar gas powered vehicle. Since you don't say where you live, we have no idea to what extent your electrical utility is fossil fuel fired which is a significant factor in determining the overall efficacy of purported environmental benefits to EVs.

My advice below is predicated on assuming you live in a region served by an electrical utility that uses fossil fuels to generate electricity for either primary or secondary demand, and if it's coal ... it's even worse for the environment than any IC drivetrain would ever be. If, however, you live in an area served by hydro or nuclear, that changes the environmental equation significantly (habitat damage and other risks not factored in).

However, the cost of gas is a valid criteria given the length of your commute Since you're on the waiting list anyway, I might suggest waiting for the 2019 Mazda 3 and HCCI which will provide substantial gas savings and maybe better from an overall cost/leasing perspective. I would also look at conventional hybrids like the Accord Hybrid or the Hyundai Ioniq BEV before looking at a PHEV because of my views on PHEVs or EVs in general.

As for the semi-autonomous, I can't offer any comment. If it's that important, it will limit your choices and (as much as I detest Tesla as a company) lead you back to the Model 3.
Environmentalists seem to only consider a vehicles tailpipe emissions. The impact of acquisition, production, transportation, disposal, etc. is of little consequence.
If there is a benefit for the environment, I'm happy about that. However, that is not my main goal with driving an electric car. I'm concerned with the other green... the green that is in my wallet.
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