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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Tracking, Autocrossing, Dragstrip, Driving Techniques > Why aren't there more track cars?



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      06-18-2021, 03:18 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by fleetfoot View Post
Oh and a few other technical notes:

3) Michelin PS4S's started with 9.5/32" and finished with ~7.5/32" with fairly even wear front/rear and inside/outside. I think I'll get about 4 track events per set of tires.
5) Ambient air temps were in the upper 80's. Oil temp went barely over 250 degrees.
Do you have the any oil cooler or oem heat exchanger? Planning to run at buttonwillow in a few weeks and it looks like its going to be 100+. So not sure if my car can do it without an oil cooler. When I pushed it on backroads for 8-10 minutes, my oil temps were already at 270

Some parts on FCP with the lifetime warranty keep the prices down if you go through consumables fast. If the 328i is strictly for tracking, next time I would suggest you get a set of 200tw tires like the rs4 which should hold up longer than the ps4s on track.
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      06-18-2021, 06:10 PM   #24
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Your N54 should have an extended radiator and oil cooler at the track.
Also make sure your IC is blocking your radiator to a minimum.

Your gearbox and engine will love you.

Ow ja also code out any nanny, minus ediff. Because it will cause many issues on the track, like brake fade torque reduction crap based on calculated measures instead of sensors..
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      06-20-2021, 04:27 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aphael View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfoot View Post
Oh and a few other technical notes:

3) Michelin PS4S's started with 9.5/32" and finished with ~7.5/32" with fairly even wear front/rear and inside/outside. I think I'll get about 4 track events per set of tires.
5) Ambient air temps were in the upper 80's. Oil temp went barely over 250 degrees.
Do you have the any oil cooler or oem heat exchanger? Planning to run at buttonwillow in a few weeks and it looks like its going to be 100+. So not sure if my car can do it without an oil cooler. When I pushed it on backroads for 8-10 minutes, my oil temps were already at 270

Some parts on FCP with the lifetime warranty keep the prices down if you go through consumables fast. If the 328i is strictly for tracking, next time I would suggest you get a set of 200tw tires like the rs4 which should hold up longer than the ps4s on track.
Altitude is real problem when it comes to cooling. N52 can get away with heat exchanger, but altitude in combination with heat is killer.
I can tell you that oil cooler for 335 in N52 resolves those issues as I track car at 5,000ft.
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      06-26-2021, 07:27 PM   #26
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So I finally got out on the track this year. I recently bought a 2017 M2 to replace my 2013 328i (original owner), but all my driving friends recommended I use the 328i for track learning purposes since there's less power, more linear delivery, and less cost if I total it.

My first track day was at Atlanta Motorsports Park, and honestly me and the 328i didn't do so great. My 2 year old valve cover gasket started leaking again, the pedals weren't close enough for consistent heel/toe downshifts, and my 2 year old Michelin Pilot Sport AS/3+ tires felt pretty sketchy. I spent most of the day in 3rd gear (to avoid shifting) trying to learn the line and practice giving point-bys...lots of those since I was pretty much the slowest guy out there. My confidence was pretty low after my first day, and I wasn't too enamored with the 328i. I started thinking about selling it.

Before my second track day at Road Atlanta, I replaced the valve cover gasket (again), installed some bimmerworld extended pedal covers, bought some Piloti driving shoes, and installed a fresh set of Michelin PS4S's. All of those improvements made the experience at Road Atlanta WAY better, even though it's a scarier track for a newbie. My heel/toe shifting was much more consistent, the new summer tires felt predictable and fantastic, and I wasn't worried about leaking oil the whole time.

Overall, it seems like my 328i has plenty of performance for me to explore and grow into. However, some of the more experienced drivers at the track recommended I consider swapping for a more focused and cheaper track car like a Miata or BRZ. I still love my bimmer though, so I think I'll hold on to it for a while longer.

sidenote: got to ride on the track in a G80 M3. Braking and overall speed were impressive. Grill wasn't attractive to me in person, and the exhaust note was too quiet for me to really hear.
I think there is definitely merit to the lighter, lower power initial track cars. I'm building an '87 325is m52 swapped turbo track build thats completely gutted and caged, large wing, splitter, diffuser, etc. as my first dedicated track car. Probably a terrible idea and going to be a larger learning curve. Oh well.

My wife is taking my girls to see the inlaws for a month in August. Hopefully will do a track day with the e92 then and get a good feel for how this car can do on track. I can already see this car getting a half cage before she gets home and tells me no...
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      09-07-2021, 01:24 PM   #27
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Sorry, thread is a bit old BUT it is an interesting topic of conversation. Esp

It is true I see a lot of e90 and especially e92 M3's but not too many non-M's. Despite having a lot of potential as a fun track car. I think it has a lot to do with the type of people who bought them new. They are ten years old which is not new but not super old. Many may still be with original owners. People who spend $40k on a brand new non-M aren't necessarily thinking of tracking it right away. Or if they we're, the $40k would go a lot further on something late-90's with track mods. Whereas the M3 was designed to handle track duty right off the dealer lot (for the most part) and the type of buyer is more likely to be thinking about going to the track.

Does that kind of make sense? That's my hypothesis at least lol

Edit: Shoutout to edycol for ripping around the track on the daily grocery getter snow car kid hauler. One car to rule them all. I love and respect that. I have similar plans myself. There will be some DM's in the coming months lol.
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      09-07-2021, 08:29 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumbie View Post
Sorry, thread is a bit old BUT it is an interesting topic of conversation. Esp

It is true I see a lot of e90 and especially e92 M3's but not too many non-M's. Despite having a lot of potential as a fun track car. I think it has a lot to do with the type of people who bought them new. They are ten years old which is not new but not super old. Many may still be with original owners. People who spend $40k on a brand new non-M aren't necessarily thinking of tracking it right away. Or if they we're, the $40k would go a lot further on something late-90's with track mods. Whereas the M3 was designed to handle track duty right off the dealer lot (for the most part) and the type of buyer is more likely to be thinking about going to the track.

Does that kind of make sense? That's my hypothesis at least lol

Edit: Shoutout to edycol for ripping around the track on the daily grocery getter snow car kid hauler. One car to rule them all. I love and respect that. I have similar plans myself. There will be some DM's in the coming months lol.
E90 328 has a lot of potential to be cheap, fun car on the track. Slap oil cooler, throw some M3 wishbones on suspension, Bilstein dampers and ok performance tires, and it will make you enjoy on the track. For $200-300 you can throw three stage intake on it, bimmerlabs tune, get some 250-260hp on crank.
N52 on its own doesn't create a lot of heat. No turbo, no direct injection. It is reliable power plant. IMO best E90 for track if fun is only priority, not being fastest, is 328.
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      09-14-2021, 08:54 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumbie View Post
Sorry, thread is a bit old BUT it is an interesting topic of conversation. Esp

It is true I see a lot of e90 and especially e92 M3's but not too many non-M's. Despite having a lot of potential as a fun track car. I think it has a lot to do with the type of people who bought them new. They are ten years old which is not new but not super old. Many may still be with original owners. People who spend $40k on a brand new non-M aren't necessarily thinking of tracking it right away. Or if they we're, the $40k would go a lot further on something late-90's with track mods. Whereas the M3 was designed to handle track duty right off the dealer lot (for the most part) and the type of buyer is more likely to be thinking about going to the track.

Does that kind of make sense? That's my hypothesis at least lol

Edit: Shoutout to edycol for ripping around the track on the daily grocery getter snow car kid hauler. One car to rule them all. I love and respect that. I have similar plans myself. There will be some DM's in the coming months lol.
I have done two track days now in my 2008 328i 6 speed and you're right. There's a M3 here and there, but seemingly no NA e9x cars.

Today I was very pleased with the turnout of e9x cars. We all parked close too.

Next to my Alpine White 328i was a 2011 BMW 335is Alpine White with Oyster interior and DCT. 60k mile car....amazing.

Couple cars down was a 2008 (I think, maybe newer) carbon roof M3 with DCT and 80kish miles. Also Alpine White but w/ black interior. That dude was RIPPING it!

M3 had no problems but hasn't done rod bearings he says..and the 335is guy kept getting CEL and weird vibrations after a couple laps. He cashed out after the 2nd session and a total of 5 laps to live and fight another day. My car was great - oil gets hot but not overheating, and the brakes started to get hot but all in all no complaints!

In short, this thread needs kept alive because there IS a lot of protentional. The local track for me has an oval and part of the road course is the fast wide oval and my bone stock 328i carries roughly the same corner speed as a supercharged 500ish whp Camaro I rode in.

Short walkaround video of my car and the 335is linked. The M3 is in the first few second in the background. In the middle is the 180k mile black e46 M3

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      09-14-2021, 09:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wagonwheel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumbie View Post
Sorry, thread is a bit old BUT it is an interesting topic of conversation. Esp

It is true I see a lot of e90 and especially e92 M3's but not too many non-M's. Despite having a lot of potential as a fun track car. I think it has a lot to do with the type of people who bought them new. They are ten years old which is not new but not super old. Many may still be with original owners. People who spend $40k on a brand new non-M aren't necessarily thinking of tracking it right away. Or if they we're, the $40k would go a lot further on something late-90's with track mods. Whereas the M3 was designed to handle track duty right off the dealer lot (for the most part) and the type of buyer is more likely to be thinking about going to the track.

Does that kind of make sense? That's my hypothesis at least lol

Edit: Shoutout to edycol for ripping around the track on the daily grocery getter snow car kid hauler. One car to rule them all. I love and respect that. I have similar plans myself. There will be some DM's in the coming months lol.
I have done two track days now in my 2008 328i 6 speed and you're right. There's a M3 here and there, but seemingly no NA e9x cars.

Today I was very pleased with the turnout of e9x cars. We all parked close too.

Next to my Alpine White 328i was a 2011 BMW 335is Alpine White with Oyster interior and DCT. 60k mile car....amazing.

Couple cars down was a 2008 (I think, maybe newer) carbon roof M3 with DCT and 80kish miles. Also Alpine White but w/ black interior. That dude was RIPPING it!

M3 had no problems but hasn't done rod bearings he says..and the 335is guy kept getting CEL and weird vibrations after a couple laps. He cashed out after the 2nd session and a total of 5 laps to live and fight another day. My car was great - oil gets hot but not overheating, and the brakes started to get hot but all in all no complaints!

In short, this thread needs kept alive because there IS a lot of protentional. The local track for me has an oval and part of the road course is the fast wide oval and my bone stock 328i carries roughly the same corner speed as a supercharged 500ish whp Camaro I rode in.

Short walkaround video of my car and the 335is linked. The M3 is in the first few second in the background. In the middle is the 180k mile black e46 M3

How hot your oil gets? At one point DME will dial back ignition and performance will suffer. I think that is around 133c. At 143 you will go into limp mode.
I would at least install heat exchanger (fluid/fluid box). Though oil cooler radiator type would be best.
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      09-14-2021, 11:41 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by edycol View Post
How hot your oil gets? At one point DME will dial back ignition and performance will suffer. I think that is around 133c. At 143 you will go into limp mode.
I would at least install heat exchanger (fluid/fluid box). Though oil cooler radiator type would be best.
Luckily my n52 car has an oil temp gauge stock instead of that mpg gauge. The markers are 250 and 340. For me average driving is always just below 250. On the track if I'm downshifting and revving out gears I was getting almost halfway between the 250 and 340 marks. This should mean somewhere around 300 or 148c. I did not experience any CEL or noticeable power loss, but you're right about the oil cooler. I'm at or above the oil cooling ability with 20 min sessions on a 1.6 mile course. Definitely need to improve that.

If I was a bit less aggressive with my corner exits and just held third and lugged around 3,000 rpm out of the corner then the temps were barely over that 250 mark.

Long term that is the plan, and also running water instead of coolant/water mixture. Some guys at the track recommended that for better cooling.
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      09-15-2021, 07:37 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wagonwheel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
How hot your oil gets? At one point DME will dial back ignition and performance will suffer. I think that is around 133c. At 143 you will go into limp mode.
I would at least install heat exchanger (fluid/fluid box). Though oil cooler radiator type would be best.
Luckily my n52 car has an oil temp gauge stock instead of that mpg gauge. The markers are 250 and 340. For me average driving is always just below 250. On the track if I'm downshifting and revving out gears I was getting almost halfway between the 250 and 340 marks. This should mean somewhere around 300 or 148c. I did not experience any CEL or noticeable power loss, but you're right about the oil cooler. I'm at or above the oil cooling ability with 20 min sessions on a 1.6 mile course. Definitely need to improve that.

If I was a bit less aggressive with my corner exits and just held third and lugged around 3,000 rpm out of the corner then the temps were barely over that 250 mark.

Long term that is the plan, and also running water instead of coolant/water mixture. Some guys at the track recommended that for better cooling.
Is your E92? It could have bit higher limp mode, but definitely you are at the point where it can turn. Your DME definitely dialed back ignition already, but it is hard to notice on track when you chasing curves.
Go oil radiator. I didi it and I can stay pretty much forever on track and track I go to is at 5,000ft. It is overkill and you want that. It is good for engine! Don't worry about winter and warming up. Thermostat opens at 110c.
As for coolant, run 10/90 or 20/80 ratio coolant/distilled water. You want bit of coolant bcs. lubrication of pump.
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      09-15-2021, 08:28 AM   #33
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also running water instead of coolant/water mixture. Some guys at the track recommended that for better cooling.
Please at least use distilled water and RedLine water wetter to control corrosion. Here's a pic of what can happen if corrosion gets out of control:
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=29

Water wetter is reported to have better corrosion control than some of the other water additives:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/do...ocID=TECH00010
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      09-15-2021, 09:14 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by edycol View Post
Is your E92? It could have bit higher limp mode, but definitely you are at the point where it can turn. Your DME definitely dialed back ignition already, but it is hard to notice on track when you chasing curves.
Go oil radiator. I didi it and I can stay pretty much forever on track and track I go to is at 5,000ft. It is overkill and you want that. It is good for engine! Don't worry about winter and warming up. Thermostat opens at 110c.
As for coolant, run 10/90 or 20/80 ratio coolant/distilled water. You want bit of coolant bcs. lubrication of pump.
Yes, e92. 2008 328i almost 93k miles now. You're right - my second time on track I wouldn't have noticed if it pulled a little timing. Now that you mention it I can maybe recognize a couple corners where it didn't pull as nicely.

Next season I have my eyes set on a e90 330i 6 speed to gut and set up proper. THANK YOU for the coolant advice.. 20/80 sounds perfectly reasonable to me - and for the oil cooler I agree with radiator mount. I researched the 335i oil cooler and it seems like a piece of bubble gum on a water leak. Anywhere I can go to see your setup?
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      09-15-2021, 09:36 PM   #35
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Seems like the e9x generation might get skipped over entirely by the club racing groups.

Local BMW club is about 50% e46, 35% e36, 10% F, and 5% e9x. Ignoring the oddball old Mercedes and other unique pieces.

It's odd that there are more F cars than e9x, although the F's are usually big money teams. e36 are aging out and getting harder to get engines and body parts for but the e46 has another 10 years to go and is a lot lighter than the newer ones.

The n52 cars will be skipped entirely. Too heavy compared to e46. Direct injection valvetronic turbos take a lot of work and money to turn into race cars. By the time e46 age out the F's will be 15-20 years old and might be the next logical step. Not sure the e9x will ever get much club racing love.
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      09-15-2021, 09:48 PM   #36
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Quote:
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Seems like the e9x generation might get skipped over entirely by the club racing groups.

Local BMW club is about 50% e46, 35% e36, 10% F, and 5% e9x. Ignoring the oddball old Mercedes and other unique pieces.

It's odd that there are more F cars than e9x, although the F's are usually big money teams. e36 are aging out and getting harder to get engines and body parts for but the e46 has another 10 years to go and is a lot lighter than the newer ones.

The n52 cars will be skipped entirely. Too heavy compared to e46. Direct injection valvetronic turbos take a lot of work and money to turn into race cars. By the time e46 age out the F's will be 15-20 years old and might be the next logical step. Not sure the e9x will ever get much club racing love.
I've been wondering if there would ever be an specE90. Anyone else feel more optimistic about that possibility?
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      09-16-2021, 04:01 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian86 View Post
Seems like the e9x generation might get skipped over entirely by the club racing groups.

Local BMW club is about 50% e46, 35% e36, 10% F, and 5% e9x. Ignoring the oddball old Mercedes and other unique pieces.

It's odd that there are more F cars than e9x, although the F's are usually big money teams. e36 are aging out and getting harder to get engines and body parts for but the e46 has another 10 years to go and is a lot lighter than the newer ones.

The n52 cars will be skipped entirely. Too heavy compared to e46. Direct injection valvetronic turbos take a lot of work and money to turn into race cars. By the time e46 age out the F's will be 15-20 years old and might be the next logical step. Not sure the e9x will ever get much club racing love.
330 won't have oil cooler or heat exchanger. You can buy three stage intake from N52 that came with it (330, X3/5, 530) tune it and get same power. 330 will have just bit beefed up brakes, but you can go 335 brakes on 328, just make sure you code them if you go all 4 from 335 and not just front.
There are others who did oil cooler. It is direct retrofit as oil filter housing is same, just has opening on the side for heat exchanger or oil cooler thermostat. You can find on google more photos.
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      09-16-2021, 06:42 AM   #38
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One more thing: run heat! Run heat at max temperature and ventilation at full strength. That will serve as basically additional cooling radiator. Close all vents except those on the side and turn them toward windows which I guess are open during track day.
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      09-16-2021, 10:01 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfoot View Post
I've been wondering if there would ever be an specE90. Anyone else feel more optimistic about that possibility?
Myself and some others think so. Look up BigInBoca on here. Dude has built a NA monster.

Because everyone is skipping over the NA e9x cars they are CHEAP fun on the track. Many can be bought well under $10k. Most guys I talk to at the track paid $16k on the low end and $20-25k on the average. Bolt up M3 suspension and 335 brakes and you have a fun haver.. Personally, I'm all in on the chassis.
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      09-16-2021, 10:17 PM   #40
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Spec e90 would be cool. clapped out 328's are just being driven into yards to strip and crush for scrap metal.

Keep the block and most of the engine sealed, bigger radiator and oil cooler, keep the 328 suspension bits, limit tire width, allow bigger brakes and camber plates, bushings/shocks/springs/bars open.

Not sure what to do with the ABS/DSC. It's easiest to just yank the whole system and install a brake bias valve, but peg-legging out of corners really sucks. Perhaps scrap the DSC entirely and allow rear lockers?

I'd imagine some enterprising coders could even write a spec-series flash for computers.
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      09-16-2021, 10:19 PM   #41
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfoot View Post
I've been wondering if there would ever be an specE90. Anyone else feel more optimistic about that possibility?
Myself and some others think so. Look up BigInBoca on here. Dude has built a NA monster.

Because everyone is skipping over the NA e9x cars they are CHEAP fun on the track. Many can be bought well under $10k. Most guys I talk to at the track paid $16k on the low end and $20-25k on the average. Bolt up M3 suspension and 335 brakes and you have a fun haver.. Personally, I'm all in on the chassis.
It is definitely best option if person just want to have fun and doesn't really give a shit about who is fastest. I drop kids to daycare and school with it, go track it with child seats in it. Who cares? It is most reliable engine BMW made last 17 years. Put oil cooler and like you said 335 brakes, and you can stay on track for hours. Last time I was on a track it was 102 degrees at 5,000ft altitude and last session I stayed on for more then an hour. This winter I am doing brake upgrade. Front Brembo calipers from F30 335 (340x30mm rotor) and rear from 135 also Brembo. When I do that, I am gonna be able to do 24hrs Le Mans .
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      09-17-2021, 07:54 AM   #42
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I love that there seems to be more interest in this then expected. I have to keep myself from strait up stopping the e30 build and just turning my e92 into my track build.....Parts are so much easier for these cars and you don't have to custom make literally everything, lol...
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      09-17-2021, 11:12 AM   #43
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The n52 is a bit slow not the best power to weight.

The n54 has oil starvation issues, as well as cooling issues, as well as many other issues.

The S65 is the only 'real' choice for a track car. For all of the reasons said above by other people. Looking back I should have just bought an m3 and supercharged it.
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      09-17-2021, 12:55 PM   #44
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Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
The n52 is a bit slow not the best power to weight.

The n54 has oil starvation issues, as well as cooling issues, as well as many other issues.

The S65 is the only 'real' choice for a track car. For all of the reasons said above by other people. Looking back I should have just bought an m3 and supercharged it.
N52 is not slow. It depends on how you look at it. I am faster on track than some vehicles that have 30-40hp more, but they are not having as efficient transfer of power, do not handle well etc.
Three-stage intake and AutoWerke flash can get you N52to some 260-270hp on the crank. Some more serious modifications, like modifying N54 intake, MILV's, headers can get you probably close to 300hp on the crank. Boca has approx. 260WHP on his vehicle.
Yes, M3 is track option, but rod bearings?
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