E90Post
 


 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion > Road and Track: "We Aren't BMW's Target Market Anymore"



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-03-2022, 07:10 PM   #23
Teutonic
Colonel
Teutonic's Avatar
No_Country
2706
Rep
2,350
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Sadly, I am in the same group. I bought in 2021 probably my last BMWs out of fear that everything will go in the same repulsive direction. I was right. I am looking for an M8 and after that probably close the relationship.
I have dropped my M3 allocation when saw that grill and the rear door/fender eyesore and bought a special Individual M Performance Edition M340i instead.

This year, after decades of BMW loyalty, I bought two vehicles from another german. No more money for BMW from me.
I find the design, childish, ghetto style, attention screaming, kitschy, repugnant and even grotesque in certain cases. Obviously I am not the target anymore.

BMW used to be that cool guy with a rebel attitude in a wonderful crafted neutral but perfectly tailored suit…
Always carefuly dressed and ready to play, BMW was that one that could fight, play, have fun, and get wild and still attend the evening gala in the same outfit…


No more. I own three BMWs right now, and plan to keep them if possible. BMW is not my brand anymore. Sadly, as all my friends and family believe that there is a propeler stamped on my heart… But my humble style with a small M badge in the corner and few elements for the conoisseur is gone. I do not belong in the ghetto, look at me, watch my grill, see my car dude, crowd.

I can see all these comments that BMW is selling, but I can guarantee you that the time when they will regret this choice will come.

After a life of love story, I really wish BMW good luck in the future…

Last edited by Teutonic; 12-03-2022 at 07:24 PM..
Appreciate 7
snareman8959.50
SW111262.50
Mavus2014.50
Joachim317.50
Egrunt548.50
lab_rat394.50
      12-03-2022, 09:44 PM   #24
yousefnjr
salty cowboys fan
yousefnjr's Avatar
6115
Rep
3,392
Posts

Drives: ‘06 Z4MR, ‘20 X7, ‘22 M4x
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (2)

I really don't think they've changed much tbh. Quirky, strange designs are certainly nothing new (e36 hatch anybody?). Neither is 'technology for the sake of technology' or bad user interfaces. I found this blurb from a quick googling just now, hilarious and prescient:

Quote:
from Scientific American, April 1 2016

5 of the Worst User-Interface Disasters

BMW iDrive
In 2007 BMW attempted an ambitious project: It assigned nearly 700 of the car's functions to a crazily complicated knob between the two front seats—a knob that you could turn, push or bump in any of eight directions. The system was called iDrive, and it was a disaster. "Learning BMW's complicated iDrive system…is still disheartening and will surely be a daunting task to most new owners, especially those with little patience and at or near retirement age," went one typical review. It was slow, complex and infuriating to owners. In 2008 BMW overhauled the system completely.
I distinctly remember my e36 having at least 4 separate buttons to set the time on the clock on the OBC. One button for each digit (1000, 100, 10, and 1). Why on earth lol. Phoenix Gold and Austin Yellow were both described as 'baby poop green' immediately on release (and rightfully so). I'd even bet some people saw the first 'angel eyes' in the 2001 E39 as flashy. Maybe we don't mean to overlook these things, or view the past with rose-tinted glasses. Whatever the case, I promise you they've been a strange company this whole time. Here is an article (also from R&T) which is making a similar point. Not all of their choices worked back then. Certainly not all of them work now. They have been pretty consistent about taking risks though. I do dig that.

I should also add that the current crop of M's drive spectacularly.
Attached Images
   
__________________
she’s home! '22 M4 Comp xDrive
Appreciate 2
      12-04-2022, 11:41 AM   #25
wtwo3
Major General
wtwo3's Avatar
17881
Rep
5,463
Posts

Drives: 23 X7 40i; 23 M3; 24 cooper s
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: IL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
I haven't read the article, but I think it's important to give context in reference to how the automotive market has evolved as a whole rather than simply look at BMWs direction in a vacuum. As a whole the automotive world is evolving towards tech, safety, comfort - basically all things that scream - "we know you'd rather be doing anything else but driving, so let's at least give you as much comfort as possible and maybe even remove you from the equation with some self-driving tech."

From that angle BMW is one of the few brands left which still offers manual cars. And sure the M3/M4 may have grown in size and weight, but in their class they're still among the lightest (c63/RS5).

So while BMW is moving away from catering to enthusiasts... most others have long moved away already.
__________________
2023 BMW X7 xDrive40i
2023 BMW M3 6MT
2024 Mini Cooper S Convertible

'20 BMW m340i... '20 BMW X5 40i... '16 Infiniti Q50 RS 400... '10 Lexus RX 350... '08 Lexus IS 350... '00 Nissan Maxima... '93 Nissan Maxima
Appreciate 2
chris7197273.00
      12-04-2022, 04:49 PM   #26
BobBMWX3
Second Lieutenant
164
Rep
276
Posts

Drives: X3 M40i 22
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: VA

iTrader: (0)

Every time I have purchased new cars, I have shopped the market. I set ideas of what I want (looks, power, price, type) and go from there. Over that time I have gone from several different brands. Each one I loved when I got them. When the time to buy came around the next time, they had changed. Mitsubishi, Infiniti, Jaguar, and now BMW.

I am new to BMW. Purchased a 22 X3 M40i. I had not considered BMW prior to this because I never cared much for the look. The LCI X3 has a nice look, good design, and is fun to drive.

In ten years (hopefully not any sooner if all goes well with the X3), I will be shopping again. While the current crop of BMWs would not do it for me, who knows in another decade.
Appreciate 0
      12-05-2022, 12:58 PM   #27
bmw1racer
bimmerphile, technogeek
bmw1racer's Avatar
United_States
998
Rep
3,784
Posts

Drives: 2012 E82 6MT Sport
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
I'm on my sixth Bimmer and very likely the last. The current crop are bloated, battery-killing tech monsters. Until my current 1er, I've always had a 3er (E30, E36), but they've become land barges. Looking back, I should've kept my last E36 instead of trading it in. Doesn't look like BMW is going back to what made their reputation so appealing and storied, so sadly I think I'm done.
__________________
Appreciate 1
lab_rat394.50
      12-05-2022, 02:04 PM   #28
chris719
Major General
7273
Rep
7,252
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
I haven't read the article, but I think it's important to give context in reference to how the automotive market has evolved as a whole rather than simply look at BMWs direction in a vacuum. As a whole the automotive world is evolving towards tech, safety, comfort - basically all things that scream - "we know you'd rather be doing anything else but driving, so let's at least give you as much comfort as possible and maybe even remove you from the equation with some self-driving tech."

From that angle BMW is one of the few brands left which still offers manual cars. And sure the M3/M4 may have grown in size and weight, but in their class they're still among the lightest (c63/RS5).

So while BMW is moving away from catering to enthusiasts... most others have long moved away already.
Yep. It's like, ok, BMW isn't what it once was. Who are you going to go to? Porsche has probably been the most faithful to their brand values but even people on Rennlist complain endlessly. The Tesla Model 3 might drive nicely as this article states, but that's not their focus. I don't think you can rely on that to stay the same going forward for all their cars. They don't produce any real enthusiast focused products either.
Appreciate 1
wtwo317880.50
      12-05-2022, 02:05 PM   #29
chris719
Major General
7273
Rep
7,252
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw1racer View Post
I'm on my sixth Bimmer and very likely the last. The current crop are bloated, battery-killing tech monsters. Until my current 1er, I've always had a 3er (E30, E36), but they've become land barges. Looking back, I should've kept my last E36 instead of trading it in. Doesn't look like BMW is going back to what made their reputation so appealing and storied, so sadly I think I'm done.
Are you going to stick with an E85 forever? I'm not disputing what you say, I just don't know who is doing a better job with brand new cars.
Appreciate 0
      12-05-2022, 02:21 PM   #30
Rocket455
Grumpysaurus Rex
Rocket455's Avatar
United_States
481
Rep
423
Posts

Drives: 2022 M550i
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1972 Firechicken  [0.00]
1969 Toronado  [0.00]
1970 Camaro  [0.00]
No matter where we all stand on the current BMW direction and offerings, it is a privilege to be so spoiled for choice, whether it is within BMW's current lineup or a competitor's. There is something out there for everybody who can afford to pay to play.
__________________
“Science has made us gods even before we are worthy of being men.”
Appreciate 1
TheMaxXHD639.50
      12-05-2022, 04:56 PM   #31
M eyedoc
Private First Class
United_States
110
Rep
123
Posts

Drives: e30 M3, f10 M5
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Lost

iTrader: (0)

OK Boomer. What's your reason to not change?

Dear BMW (and BMWCCA). That is a very good question. As someone that has bought BMWs almost exclusively for more than 30 years, and still own 4 M cars including the M5, I believe you may be on to something. Congratulations, you have talked me into letting the M5 go at lease end and go elsewhere. MB and Audi here we come.
Appreciate 2
________4157.00
lab_rat394.50
      12-06-2022, 07:37 AM   #32
TheMaxXHD
First Lieutenant
United_States
640
Rep
396
Posts

Drives: 2023 G20 LCI M340i xDrive
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Pennsylvania

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M eyedoc View Post
OK Boomer. What's your reason to not change?

Dear BMW (and BMWCCA). That is a very good question. As someone that has bought BMWs almost exclusively for more than 30 years, and still own 4 M cars including the M5, I believe you may be on to something. Congratulations, you have talked me into letting the M5 go at lease end and go elsewhere. MB and Audi here we come.
This isn't helpful discussion with that attitude. Also if you want to ask the questions, let me ask you this then, what's your reasons to change? I am sure you got a laundry list, but then you list MB and Audi, which is kind of a problem, because they likely will have the exact same issues, or at the very least won't resolve your list of issues, because they are all going the same direction.

MB, they are taking crap right now for their screen infested cars, and at this moment, are really taking heat for the controversial decision to go with a 4 cyl across the board in their C class.

Audi, still an Audi, which if you are coming from a BMW M5, you likely will hate their cars for the same reason you don't already own an Audi, the driving dynamics, that hasn't changed. Their B9 platform is in severe need of an overhaul and fast on the tech front.

As someone mentioned, Porsche is probably one of the few remaining faithful to their brand style and handling, but part of that is because they already did their "brand transition" in the late 90s early 2000s, which they took heat for, a ton, by focusing on other models like the Cayenne, or Boxster, so they could financially survive, which worked, and the 911 prevails today because of it.
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2022, 08:31 AM   #33
________
________
4157
Rep
2,301
Posts

Drives: ________
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: ________

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD View Post
This isn't helpful discussion with that attitude. Also if you want to ask the questions, let me ask you this then, what's your reasons to change? I am sure you got a laundry list, but then you list MB and Audi, which is kind of a problem, because they likely will have the exact same issues, or at the very least won't resolve your list of issues, because they are all going the same direction.

MB, they are taking crap right now for their screen infested cars, and at this moment, are really taking heat for the controversial decision to go with a 4 cyl across the board in their C class.

Audi, still an Audi, which if you are coming from a BMW M5, you likely will hate their cars for the same reason you don't already own an Audi, the driving dynamics, that hasn't changed. Their B9 platform is in severe need of an overhaul and fast on the tech front.

As someone mentioned, Porsche is probably one of the few remaining faithful to their brand style and handling, but part of that is because they already did their "brand transition" in the late 90s early 2000s, which they took heat for, a ton, by focusing on other models like the Cayenne, or Boxster, so they could financially survive, which worked, and the 911 prevails today because of it.
You missed the entire point of his post…
Appreciate 1
lab_rat394.50
      12-06-2022, 08:48 AM   #34
TheMaxXHD
First Lieutenant
United_States
640
Rep
396
Posts

Drives: 2023 G20 LCI M340i xDrive
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Pennsylvania

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onesie View Post
You missed the entire point of his post…
Sarcasm is not my forte
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2022, 08:51 AM   #35
________
________
4157
Rep
2,301
Posts

Drives: ________
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: ________

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD View Post
Sarcasm is not my forte
It wasn’t so much sarcasm as he was answering the question BMW made.
The question is a quote from BMW: “Ok boomer, what’s your reason not to change?” When they presented this new lineup.

He is answering BMW’s question: “I guess I don’t have a reason not to change. Change, here I go (Audi or Mercedes)”

Edit to add link: https://www.carscoops.com/2020/11/bm...ry-risky-move/

Last edited by ________; 12-06-2022 at 09:07 AM..
Appreciate 3
      12-06-2022, 08:56 AM   #36
HighlandPete
Lieutenant General
6659
Rep
15,858
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

I've been around BMW from the "New Classe" of the early 1970's.

BMW have made 'fatal' mistakes along the way, they moved from sedans.

X5 anyone? How could they, what were they thinking? Fatal mistake... now the 'X' range is their biggest market.

BMW introduced diesel... how could they? Without diesel I suggest the Company may not be what it is today. Masterstroke for Europe at the time.

Technology... above the enthusiast? Of course, it is the way forward in the current motoring climate. Users rate technology higher than driving dynamics as the dynamics are good enough for day to day use.

Here in the UK, the Jaguar XE was the 'better' Driver's Car than the F30 3-series. Why did many 'enthusiasts' stay with BMW? Better infotainment and technology integration. Tipped the balance and many admitted it. Doesn't that tell us something about a changing market and different priorities?

Even the M-cars have had to evolve. The enthusiast is not enough to generate large sales. BMW need the guys with money. It is a reason why M-cars like the F10 M5 in the UK, never came with MT. So small a demand from the market, including the so called enthusiasts. Users wanted more creature comforts, even in the M-cars.

The writing has been on the wall for years, that BMW would move with market demands.
Appreciate 3
Cos270608.50
Egrunt548.50
      12-06-2022, 09:11 AM   #37
HighlandPete
Lieutenant General
6659
Rep
15,858
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
I really don't think they've changed much tbh. Quirky, strange designs are certainly nothing new (e36 hatch anybody?). Neither is 'technology for the sake of technology' or bad user interfaces.


I should also add that the current crop of M's drive spectacularly.
Absolutely and BMW were accepted for it among the competition.

On one of our UK forums, one of our members has been driving M-cars since the E46 M3, included the E60 and F10 M5s. He's currently in a G80 M3. His comment, comparing models just this morning... "It feels as balanced and driveable as my previous E46 M3s". "Best car I have had". BTW, he's a BMW 'enthusiast'.
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2022, 09:30 AM   #38
86Zed
Get off my lawn
86Zed's Avatar
United_States
925
Rep
1,148
Posts

Drives: 6MT
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: USA

iTrader: (7)

Garage List
There are still gems in the lineup but dealer markups and limited supply have moved them further away from what I would argue is the "intended audience." Hard to walk in off the street without an existing dealer relationship or cash on the hood, and this is the same story for many brands and even regular models (Civic Si, Corolla GR, etc.)

We purchased a 2022 X3 M40i and I would argue it is near the top of its segment for value and performance. When it comes time to replace our 2011 BMW 328 wagon that is where I struggle. There is no equivalent used (F31 is not as stout and reliable) and apparently having the cash is not sufficient enough to grab me a Honda or Toyota hot sedan in this market.
Appreciate 1
Cos270608.50
      12-06-2022, 09:57 AM   #39
BMWCCA1
BMW Owner Since 1971
2236
Rep
1,393
Posts

Drives: 1964 700 Sport Cabriolet
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Central Virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2013 BMW 128i  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
X5 anyone? How could they, what were they thinking? Fatal mistake... now the 'X' range is their biggest market.
If sales numbers were the only metric for success or appeal, wouldn't we all be driving Honda or Toyota? When you try to be everything for everyone the focus on being a "driver's car" is diluted, if not lost, along the way. Doesn't mean they don't make good cars anymore, they just don't make one that appeals to an original 2002 owner who still enjoys 2002s. That's why I say my 128i M-sport stick will likely be my last BMW and I'll probably sell my E39 530i Sport/Premium stick-shift which everyone says was the last great BMW, and let someone else enjoy it. To me it actually signals the beginning of the slide.
Appreciate 1
      12-06-2022, 12:09 PM   #40
zx10guy
Brigadier General
5139
Rep
3,235
Posts

Drives: 2013 135i
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: DC

iTrader: (0)

It's too bad the execs at the Motorrad division are not also making the decisions over at the auto group. The new 2023 S1000RR has been announced and are now being placed in the presser's hands for reviews. So far, the bike has been favorably reviewed. I get to run it through its paces on the track in May. Still not sorry I have my 2022 S1000RR. I see the contrast in product developments between the two divisions and hope that none of the nonsense going on in the auto group filters over to Motorrad.

Name:  2023-BMW-S1000RR_2.jpg
Views: 593
Size:  195.9 KB
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
We might not be in an agreement on Trump, but I'll be the first penis chaser here to say I'll rather take it up in the ass than to argue with you on this.
Appreciate 2
      12-06-2022, 12:19 PM   #41
SteveinArizona
Brigadier General
United_States
3086
Rep
4,210
Posts

Drives: BMW 530e
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Greater Phoenix

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw1racer View Post
I'm on my sixth Bimmer and very likely the last. The current crop are bloated, battery-killing tech monsters. Until my current 1er, I've always had a 3er (E30, E36), but they've become land barges. Looking back, I should've kept my last E36 instead of trading it in. Doesn't look like BMW is going back to what made their reputation so appealing and storied, so sadly I think I'm done.
Agree, Bigger and heavier with each iteration. And uglier as well. My solution a week ago was to trade in my 2018 530e for a Genesis GV60 Performance BEV. A low SUV or slightly raised hatch would be my description. 177.4 inches long but with 429 HP (489 if you push the boost button on the steering wheel), Nappa leather, easy entry/exit, Every possible ADAS feature, adaptive suspension, Electronic limited slip differential, etc. etc.

IMO Genesis is making the BEV that BMW should be making. Small, fast, etc.
Appreciate 2
Cos270608.50
bmw1racer998.00
      12-06-2022, 12:33 PM   #42
XutvJet
Major General
5490
Rep
5,339
Posts

Drives: 2011 Cayman Base, 2016 M235
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Kansas City

iTrader: (-1)

I'm 48 and I recently bought a 2011 Cayman 6MT base model as a fun car to go with my 2016 M235 6MT. Prior to the Cayman, I thought the M235 was a pretty good handling sporty car, especially with the wider front tires/wheels, LSD, Dinan springs, and Bilstein Damptronic shocks out back. The Cayman opened my eyes to just how much of a wet noodle the M235 is in terms of suspension control/dynamics. The Cayman can be a bit harsh on broken pavement, but otherwise it's so controlled, even on the base suspension. I wish the M235 had even 50% of the suspension control/damping of the Cayman. The M235 has so much pogoging/rebound, especially on the rear axle and that it grows annoying.

At it's introduction in 2013, the M235 was proclaimed by journalists as the return of BMW getting back to its roots. Was it really good or was because BMW coupes and sedans had gotten so bad? I didn't find my M235 to feel that great suspension wise until I did the tire/wheel, LSD, and suspension work and even then it isn't great. Perhaps it's the active shocks that are neither good in Comfort or Sport.

With all that said, the only later model BMW I'd consider is F87 M2. I think everything they're making now is pretty terrible looking styling wise and are way too digital.

My guess is if people drove an engaging sporty car/sports car, many would want that. My 18 y/o son recently learned drive my M235 and Cayman and now he's hooked. He cares a lot about how a car feels and is now looking to replace his hand-me-down Outback 3.6R with a first gen BRZ.
__________________
The forest was shrinking, but the Trees kept voting for the Axe, for the Axe was clever and convinced the Trees that because his handle was made of wood, he was one of them.
Appreciate 3
      12-06-2022, 01:09 PM   #43
TheMaxXHD
First Lieutenant
United_States
640
Rep
396
Posts

Drives: 2023 G20 LCI M340i xDrive
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Pennsylvania

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
My guess is if people drove an engaging sporty car/sports car, many would want that. My 18 y/o son recently learned drive my M235 and Cayman and now he's hooked. He cares a lot about how a car feels and is now looking to replace his hand-me-down Outback 3.6R with a first gen BRZ.
My guess is most people wouldn't that have a lot of money to blow on a sporty vehicle and need a practical car.

Take the Honda Civic Si. Cheap sporty car. Problem, it is manual. If you only have money for one or two vehicles and you need multiple people to be able to drive it, then it doesn't work because it's manual. You can teach everyone in the house to drive manual, but by that point just get the auto and be done with it.

Anything with a manual is inherently not practical if you need anyone that doesn't know how to drive manual, to be able to drive it even occasionally, and is therefore not worth the effort or money.

Most people don't have money to spend on M235's or Cayman's. They have money to spend on civics.

Most people don't like the harsh suspension's like that in a BRZ. It is also not a 4 door sedan, or an SUV. People like sporty, people need practicality. Practicality wins 9/10 times.

You can find a nice sporty car that still has value and practicality, but most people would just prefer the beater honda civic that gets them from point A to point B.
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2022, 01:26 PM   #44
B58-M340iX
First Lieutenant
United_States
195
Rep
346
Posts

Drives: 2021 M340i xDrive
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Too bad we can't have this for an M2...
Attached Images
 

Last edited by B58-M340iX; 05-01-2023 at 02:46 PM..
Appreciate 3
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:26 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST