[willhollin]

Torque would probably muller the DCT box.

[toxicnerve]

Originally Posted by RagingKileak

...the DSG box in my Golf is at least 10 times better than the BMW Auto in my 335D...

The DSG is a robotised manual, it has regular clutches...much like the DCT.

Originally Posted by kaishang

However you have omitted one of the Torque Converter 101 primary benefits of a torque converter which is that when it slips, it is a torque multiplier. If the input (ie engine) side of the torque converter is spinning at speed 'X' and the output side is only spinning at 0.5X, this does not mean you are wasting half of your input power. Subject to transmission losses which are only a few percent, you have a torque multiplication of 2 when the output speed is half the input speed.

That is true but it's still a fluid coupling and IIRC it takes time for the torque multiplication to actually happen, it takes time for it to actually pass the torque from the input to the output...the two sides are not rigidly coupled and you have no control over how long it takes for them to become so whereas with a clutch you have direct control.

Also, just to be clear, I drive a 335d with an (obviously) auto box so I'm not trying to bash one way or the other.

[G82Dude]

Originally Posted by willhollin

Torque would probably muller the DCT box.

V10 M5/M6s don't seem to have a problem. Presumably the new M5 wont either! Nor Ferrari's, Bugatti's, etc.

[toxicnerve]

Do the M5/6 use the same DCT as found in the 3 series?

Also, you can't compare a Ferrari/Bugatti box to one found in a beemer. The cost differential would totally trash the market point of a car. Same goes for comparing M5/6 boxes to those found in a 3 series as I suspect they're different.

What are the torque figures of the E60 M5 and the M6? How do they compare to the 35d unit? Also, does either the M5/6 actually come with DCT?

[Em135eye]

If anyone does a search, this argument comes up time and time again.

Let's not forget:

1) A 330d has ONE turbo - when off boost, not a lot happens. A 335d has two. So the "not a lot" bit doesn't happen.
2) A 330d has electrically assisted steering. A 335d doesn't. It makes a big difference in driver feel.
3) A 330d can be bought as a manual - but how many manuals are there? Very few. A diesel suits an auto more.
4) Several tests have had mid to high 5s for 0-60 for a 335d. And just over 13s for 100. A 330d to 100 is at least 1.5s slower. That's a lot.
5) 335ds have cool tailpipes and huge brakes.

Toxic - M5/M6 have a fair bit less torque than a 335d.

[G82Dude]

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

The DSG is a robotised manual, it has regular clutches...much like the DCT.



That is true but it's still a fluid coupling and IIRC it takes time for the torque multiplication to actually happen, it takes time for it to actually pass the torque from the input to the output...the two sides are not rigidly coupled and you have no control over how long it takes for them to become so whereas with a clutch you have direct control.

Also, just to be clear, I drive a 335d with an (obviously) auto box so I'm not trying to bash one way or the other.

At the end of the day a MANUAL gearbox is a manual gearbox and an AUTOMATIC is an automatic. They're not the same gearbox and never will be. A DSG/DCT/S-TRONIC is closer to an automatic gearbox in that it changes gear for you and without the need for YOU to declutch, but it's still a manual with the same mechanics as a manual so can never be an automatic. Likewise, an automatic can never be a manual, no matter how many paddles they put on the steering wheel, making it appear a manual.

[willhollin]

[G82Dude]

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

Do the M5/6 use the same DCT as found in the 3 series?

Also, you can't compare a Ferrari/Bugatti box to one found in a beemer. The cost differential would totally trash the market point of a car. Same goes for comparing M5/6 boxes to those found in a 3 series as I suspect they're different.

What are the torque figures of the E60 M5 and the M6? How do they compare to the 35d unit? Also, does either the M5/6 actually come with DCT?

Nope, the M5/6 uses the old SMG III styley gearbox; no DCT. The DCT gearbox used in the M3 and 335i is the same. As for trashing the market point of the car that is in itself simply marketing. My point is that DCT gearboxes can handle high torque. If the marketing department think they can sell a vehicle with a DCT gearbox on it, they will. VAG seem to do quite well with their (or rather BorgWarner's) range of 'boxes for different engine applications...

[dxb335d]

Mate 150mph can be achieved in rush hour anywhere in UK apart
from the M25. So it's very relevant!

I don't know one person who stops accelerating at 60mph. Including all I know on this forum

[toxicnerve]

Originally Posted by uke92dude

At the end of the day a MANUAL gearbox is a manual gearbox and an AUTOMATIC is an automatic.

I eluding to the difference between an auto with a torque convertor and a DCT/DSG style box with a mechanised clutch. There's a big difference.

[Em135eye]

I don't actually like DSG boxes at all. Clunky at low speeds and generally annoying. They also break down a lot.

I'd rather have a full (but good) auto or a manual.

[kaishang]

The mechanical coupling between the torque converter input and output is actually a recent development - up until the mid-1990s cars did not have them. The purpose of the mechanical coupling is to eliminate the approximately 2% slip between the torque converter input and output when cruising at constant load/speed. It is not necessary to have a mechanical coupling, all it does is save a modest amount of fuel when on the cruise. In the 1990s, the mechanical coupling would only operate in top gear. I haven't kept up, so these days the mechanical coupling may still happen in top gear or it may be the top two gears or it may be all gears.

The torque multiplication when there is slip (ie under heavy load, under heavy acceleration, at start-off etc) happens instantly and is the nature of torque converters.

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

The DSG is a robotised manual, it has regular clutches...much like the DCT.



That is true but it's still a fluid coupling and IIRC it takes time for the torque multiplication to actually happen, it takes time for it to actually pass the torque from the input to the output...the two sides are not rigidly coupled and you have no control over how long it takes for them to become so whereas with a clutch you have direct control.

Also, just to be clear, I drive a 335d with an (obviously) auto box so I'm not trying to bash one way or the other.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by uke92dude

V10 M5/M6s don't seem to have a problem. Presumably the new M5 wont either! Nor Ferrari's, Bugatti's, etc.

Bugatti gearbox to replace prob in excess of 100k.

M5 has only 385ibs of torque!

[kaishang]

Good explanation of torque converters on Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter

[grey man]

Originally Posted by 335diesel

I don't actually like DSG boxes at all. Clunky at low speeds and generally annoying. They also break down a lot.

I'd rather have a full (but good) auto or a manual.

Exactly my opinion too, but I would add hard to move slowly in a tight space

[G82Dude]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Mate 150mph can be achieved in rush hour anywhere in UK apart
from the M25. So it's very relevant!

On your XPS3boxtendo? What was that famous saying? Oh yea, “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

[G82Dude]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Bugatti gearbox to replace prob in excess of 100k.

Drivel. What's that based on? Wikipedia? So, how much is the engine? Half a million?

[Vaheed1]

Originally Posted by 335diesel

Uh oh - 330d in "better than 335d" shocker from a 330d owner ;-)

Auto Express is the Sun newspaper of motoring magazines.

Personally, I chose the 330d over the 335d. I had a chance of buying a 335d for a premium of about £2.5k more. Mind, it took about 6 months for me to decide! I do a fair few miles and my car is split between business and personal use on a tax basis. So fuel economy had to have a say in it all. I had a 335d for a week and as much as i tried, I couldn't get it to better 36mpg. My re-mapped GTI got 30mpg!

Horses for courses, i guess. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the 335 is a bad car...far from it. It's a tremendous piece of kit...but taking all the facts into consideration, the 330d won the race for me.

My car's also had a resistor added to it for more power - and still returns 44mpg on a relaxed, none motorway run. If i'm in a hurry, it struggles to drop below 37mpg. That's some going in anyone's book.

[Vaheed1]

Originally Posted by 335diesel

If anyone does a search, this argument comes up time and time again.

Let's not forget:

1) A 330d has ONE turbo - when off boost, not a lot happens. A 335d has two. So the "not a lot" bit doesn't happen.
2) A 330d has electrically assisted steering. A 335d doesn't. It makes a big difference in driver feel.
3) A 330d can be bought as a manual - but how many manuals are there? Very few. A diesel suits an auto more.
4) Several tests have had mid to high 5s for 0-60 for a 335d. And just over 13s for 100. A 330d to 100 is at least 1.5s slower. That's a lot.
5) 335ds have cool tailpipes and huge brakes.

Toxic - M5/M6 have a fair bit less torque than a 335d.

Let's also not forget:

1) who really cares about 0-100 - as you'll be breaking the law

hehe

Considering the 30d is some 45bhp down on the 35d - is't a hell of an achievement to be only 1.5 seconds slower, that's like ..................that much. not much.

[toxicnerve]

Originally Posted by uke92dude

Drivel. What's that based on? Wikipedia? So, how much is the engine? Half a million?

I think what Carlito is getting at is that the transmission inside some high end exotica probably costs a shit load more than the DCT/or ZF found in our 3 series BMWs.

Of that, there can be little doubt.

This was also my point about market points for vehicles. You can't compare the gearbox in a Ferrari with that in a 3 series as the one in the Ferrari will be made of different materials, to different specifications and at different price points.

Are you trying to argue that this is not the case?

[F31-340i]

Originally Posted by 335diesel

M5/M6 have a fair bit less torque than a 335d.

[toxicnerve]

Originally Posted by ///ajd