No 335d in Evo

G82Dude · 10-18-2010, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

I think what Carlito is getting at is that the transmission inside some high end exotica probably costs a shit load more than the DCT/or ZF found in our 3 series BMWs.

Of that, there can be little doubt.

This was also my point about market points for vehicles. You can't compare the gearbox in a Ferrari with that in a 3 series as the one in the Ferrari will be made of different materials, to different specifications and at different price points.

Are you trying to argue that this is not the case?

I am saying that a component is designed to do a job. An earlier post said that a DCT gearbox would not cope. If BMW wants a gearbox that will cope with a certain amount of torque, I'm sure that a gearbox manufacturer will do it and won't make it prohibitively expensive to then fit to the vehicle in question. After all, does an MDCT box cost another £2,600 on top of the 6 speed manual they didn't have to fit? Course not. And how come the same box is £1,000 less on a 335i? Marketing. Pure and simple.

Interestingly, Ferrari uses Getrag DCT gearboxes. Just like BMW. So I doubt that the internal materials are much different. Software differences, absolutely. It is simply a component designed to deliver a specific outcome. The fact it is wrapped up within a Ferrari product means they can charge more to the end user. Marketing again.

pjs · 10-18-2010, 03:48 PM

For whats it worth, my old 330d was a right flying machine, ask anyone who went to UK8,the difference between it and a certain 335d was very small. Probably as quick as a 335d touring lugging the extra wieight.

toxicnerve · 10-18-2010, 03:50 PM

Touché. You're probably right.

The only RWD 7-speed DCT Getrag make to handle torques over 400nm is this one:

http://www.getrag.de/en/252

G82Dude · 10-18-2010, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

Touché. You're probably right.

The only RWD 7-speed DCT Getrag make to handle torques over 400nm is this one:

http://www.getrag.de/en/252

Indeedy. And that's the unit fitted to the M3 and 335i, yet can cost as little as £1,600. So as an option for a 335d, it wouldn't be an issue. QED!

Although, it might not be a good idea to remap your 335d!

rogerxp · 10-18-2010, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerxp

But you can only get it in nancy-boy auto so, for me, it's out

Opps, looks like I light the touch-paper with this post and ran away

This one with rage and rage and rage...

(interesting comments about the marketing behind the gearboxes determining prices, as opposed to solely being higher quality materials. It's a bit like, why did a replacement windscreen in my Maserati cost £2,500 compared to any other - because they had you by the short & curlies - it was still made from glass!!!)

beemerbird · 10-18-2010, 04:13 PM

I agree re. marketing and I'm of the opinion of cost and what the market will withstand as well as the manufacturer.

As an example the PDK option on a Cayman S is £1,961, on a 997 Turbo the PDK is £2,607 as an option. The Turbo obviously costs more to produce, more to buy and produces copious amounts of torque. Without knowing what the manual gearbox costs to produce and the actual costs to Porsche overall, it is hard to know whether they PDK in the Turbo is produced with less profit as far as the gearbox is concerned as the overall asking price is much higher than the Cayman S............but they can and do ask the price tag of the Turbo and people pay it. Not every manufacturer can do that or expect the public to pay 'X' amount extra on a 3 Series range in this particular instance. Marketing promotes the ZF gearbox for the 35d. Longevity also costs money to the manufacturer passed on to the purchaser.

As another example, the XKR Jag I had for the day also has a ZF gearbox in a car producing 625 NM but that gearbox is very much different to the 35d gearbox. It downshifts when YOU want it to and is set up beautifully and mates with the Jag very well. The Jag is a higher revving petrol though, much more BHP and the Jag costs £77k. Not knocking the 35d gearbox but I agree having driven both cars, it has to be down to how everything is set up for the reasons mentioned above.

As for Evo, take what most journos say with a pinch of salt. I'd much rather go on my own experiences as I'm not paid to be biased one way or the other.

G82Dude · 10-18-2010, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerxp

Opps, looks like I light the touch-paper with this post and ran away

This one with rage and rage and rage...

(interesting comments about the marketing behind the gearboxes determining prices, as opposed to solely being higher quality materials. It's a bit like, why did a replacement windscreen in my Maserati cost £2,500 compared to any other - because they had you by the short & curlies - it was still made from glass!!!)

LOL. So, why doesn't the same fuel pump/injector/alternator/whatever fitted to a Skoda/Seat/VW/Audi cost exactly the same? They are the same component. Marketing and brand power. I am sure there are some "brand consultants and visualisers" on the website here who can offer an insight into this interesting field... I certainly don't think that a windscreen with Maserati on it is any better than one with "Ford" on it. It's probably made by Pilkington anyway. Likewise, I don't think a Ferrari is particularly any better built or designed than any other car. They have their fair share of recalls and breakdowns too. Is a Rolls Royce better because it costs £250,000? No; it's perception. After all, mechanically, it's a BMW at its heart (with a recent brake recall).

kaishang · 10-18-2010, 04:49 PM

I can't figure out the direct Youtube link, but here is a thread over on the F10 5-series forum about the ZF 8-speed auto transmission with a ZF video:

http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=443784

ss134 · 10-18-2010, 06:17 PM

I vote 335d over 330d................it has two individual tailpipes on the outer edge of the diffuser as opposed to two together on one side like the 330d. Also the name '335d' sounds better,faster and cooler than '330d'.........

toxicnerve · 10-19-2010, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss134

I vote 335d over 330d................it has two individual tailpipes on the outer edge of the diffuser as opposed to two together on one side like the 330d. Also the name '335d' sounds better,faster and cooler than '330d'.........

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the sole reason I bought my 335d...

No. Really, it is.

willhollin · 10-19-2010, 02:22 AM

Loser.

toxicnerve · 10-19-2010, 02:54 AM

You cut me deep Will.

Em135eye · 10-19-2010, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjs

For whats it worth, my old 330d was a right flying machine, ask anyone who went to UK8,the difference between it and a certain 335d was very small. Probably as quick as a 335d touring lugging the extra wieight.

Now if you had the latest saloon (241bhp) you'd have a power weight ratio of 155bhp/tonne. Or about the same as a current Mini Cooper S. If you had the last one (225ish bhp) you'd have 145bhp/tonne - a fair bit less than a Golf GTi.

A 335d Touring has 173bhp/tonne. Similar to an Elise,

And should you wish to use torque/weight a 335d Touring has 259/tonne, a current 330d saloon has 247.

Quite a difference.

So it may have FELT faster, but it wasn't.

xenon · 10-19-2010, 04:17 AM

Or about 11% and 4% respectively, probably about what a torque convertor consumes. A well-driven manual 330d will be as quick, if not quicker, A-B car especially on twisties. I did have a go in the F10 the other day with the 8-speed auto and despite being determined not to like it I came away rather impressed. That would be an auto I'd consider as they seem to have engineered out the vagueness and the transmission slam.

toxicnerve · 10-19-2010, 04:21 AM

xenon, is that 8-speed auto not the sport auto trans?

xenon · 10-19-2010, 04:22 AM

^ sorry, I don't know the difference.

Em135eye · 10-19-2010, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenon

Or about 11% and 4% respectively, probably about what a torque convertor consumes. A well-driven manual 330d will be as quick, if not quicker, A-B car especially on twisties. I did have a go in the F10 the other day with the 8-speed auto and despite being determined not to like it I came away rather impressed. That would be an auto I'd consider as they seem to have engineered out the vagueness and the transmission slam.

I'm sorry but I think this is BS. If the torque convertor "consumes" so much, why is a 335d so much quicker in a straight line?
As for "the twisties" - why did a 335d beat a MANUAL 335i at Bruntingthorpe if the manual set up is so superior?

You can't argue against facts with half ar5ed assumptions about "torque converters" - yes you don't like them. Seems a lot DO like the 35d ZF auto. Me included.

RagingKileak · 10-19-2010, 04:36 AM

At the time, I bought my 335d for a mix of practicality (fuel economy and size/doors) and tuneability.

There was simply no other way I could return 40+ mpg whilst in a 350+ bhp car.

How would the remapped 335d vs remapped 330d argument go I wonder?

I still think that the gearbox is weak/shit on the 335d, but 335Diesel has, in his defence, made the argument which most of the rest of us would usually fall back on (power/weight) which means it is hard to simply throw the usual derogatory nonsense at him.

I'm with him on this, used like a manual, you can really make a 335d move - undoubtedly, it is unlikely to be as much fun as the manual 330d (though I challenge anyone to REALLY, TRULY believe that any diesel is as FUN as a petrol) and hence, could feel faster.

Working a manual gearbox to its limits in and out of corners will always feel faster and more engaging than a big auto!

Regards
Matt

xenon · 10-19-2010, 04:41 AM

Sorry 335d, didn't mean to upset you. We all know you own the best car ever created so don't feel the need to defend it so vociferously.

I agree with what Matt (RK) says though. Undeniably the 335d can really shift and wasn't suggesting it wouldn't. I think in the real world the 330d would be as quick though and more fun to boot.

Ultimately 335d loves his car and that's all that matters

toxicnerve · 10-19-2010, 04:44 AM

There's not that much between the 330d and the 335d is there? 0.1 of a second to 62mph right?

They're not leagues apart by any stretch of the imagination.

RagingKileak · 10-19-2010, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

There's not that much between the 330d and the 335d is there? 0.1 of a second to 62mph right?

They're not leagues apart by any stretch of the imagination.

Its 0-100 that counts....

Deja Vu?

Matt

chrisbin · 10-19-2010, 04:53 AM

Auto Express = Sun

Agreed!!

Evo = pile of crap

Personally I don't think so. Of the motoring mags available I believe its the best, but we're all entitled to an opinion of course!

As for EVO hating diesels, not quite true.....they reckoned that the D3 Biturbo they ran was the best long-termer they have had, bar none...

That said, however good they are, I will always enjoy driving (and listening to) a petrol engined car more than a diesel......and I guess thats where EVO will be coming from.....

10-18-2010, 03:48 PM	#46
pjs Colonel 274 Rep 2,774 Posts Drives: i8 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: NORTH iTrader: (1)	For whats it worth, my old 330d was a right flying machine, ask anyone who went to UK8,the difference between it and a certain 335d was very small. Probably as quick as a 335d touring lugging the extra wieight. Last edited by pjs; 10-18-2010 at 03:55 PM..
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10-18-2010, 03:50 PM	#47
toxicnerve Colonel 97 Rep 2,834 Posts Drives: E92 335d M-Sport Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK iTrader: (2)	Touché. You're probably right. The only RWD 7-speed DCT Getrag make to handle torques over 400nm is this one: http://www.getrag.de/en/252
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10-18-2010, 04:13 PM	#50
beemerbird Major General 172 Rep 7,953 Posts Drives: Merc diesel Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Yorkshire iTrader: (0) Garage List 2010 TTRS [9.00] 2007 Audi S5 [0.00] May 2007 Porsche 99 ... [0.00] March 2007 Porsche ... [0.00] Sep. 2007 E92 335d SE [0.00] July 2006 E90 330i ... [0.00]	I agree re. marketing and I'm of the opinion of cost and what the market will withstand as well as the manufacturer. As an example the PDK option on a Cayman S is £1,961, on a 997 Turbo the PDK is £2,607 as an option. The Turbo obviously costs more to produce, more to buy and produces copious amounts of torque. Without knowing what the manual gearbox costs to produce and the actual costs to Porsche overall, it is hard to know whether they PDK in the Turbo is produced with less profit as far as the gearbox is concerned as the overall asking price is much higher than the Cayman S............but they can and do ask the price tag of the Turbo and people pay it. Not every manufacturer can do that or expect the public to pay 'X' amount extra on a 3 Series range in this particular instance. Marketing promotes the ZF gearbox for the 35d. Longevity also costs money to the manufacturer passed on to the purchaser. As another example, the XKR Jag I had for the day also has a ZF gearbox in a car producing 625 NM but that gearbox is very much different to the 35d gearbox. It downshifts when YOU want it to and is set up beautifully and mates with the Jag very well. The Jag is a higher revving petrol though, much more BHP and the Jag costs £77k. Not knocking the 35d gearbox but I agree having driven both cars, it has to be down to how everything is set up for the reasons mentioned above. As for Evo, take what most journos say with a pinch of salt. I'd much rather go on my own experiences as I'm not paid to be biased one way or the other.
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10-18-2010, 04:49 PM	#52
kaishang Colonel 54 Rep 2,197 Posts Drives: 2010 E90 330d Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: London iTrader: (0)	I can't figure out the direct Youtube link, but here is a thread over on the F10 5-series forum about the ZF 8-speed auto transmission with a ZF video: http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=443784
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10-18-2010, 06:17 PM	#53
ss134 Brigadier General 230 Rep 3,899 Posts Drives: F80 M3 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Germany/UK iTrader: (1)	I vote 335d over 330d................it has two individual tailpipes on the outer edge of the diffuser as opposed to two together on one side like the 330d. Also the name '335d' sounds better,faster and cooler than '330d'......... __________________ 2014 AW F80 M3 DCT 2011 AW E90 M3 DCT - Sold 2010 JZB E90 M3 DCT - Sold 2009 6MT E90 LCI 335i M -Sport - Sold
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10-19-2010, 02:22 AM	#55
willhollin Major General 268 Rep 9,915 Posts Drives: VW T5 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Worcestershire iTrader: (1) Garage List 2007 BMW E92 330d SE [10.00] 2010 Transporter T5 ... [0.00]	Loser. __________________
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10-19-2010, 02:54 AM	#56
toxicnerve Colonel 97 Rep 2,834 Posts Drives: E92 335d M-Sport Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK iTrader: (2)	You cut me deep Will.
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10-19-2010, 04:17 AM	#58
xenon Major General 1397 Rep 8,083 Posts Drives: 2021 G21 330i M-Sport Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Coventry iTrader: (0)	Or about 11% and 4% respectively, probably about what a torque convertor consumes. A well-driven manual 330d will be as quick, if not quicker, A-B car especially on twisties. I did have a go in the F10 the other day with the 8-speed auto and despite being determined not to like it I came away rather impressed. That would be an auto I'd consider as they seem to have engineered out the vagueness and the transmission slam. __________________ Ian Current: 2021 G21 330i M-Sport Previous: 2018 A6 Avant S-Line MMI+, 2014 F31 320d M-Sport, 2013 F10 520d M-Sport, 2011 F10 530d M-Sport, 2008 320i M-Sport Coupe, 2002 325i, 2001 318i valvetronic, 1998 318i, 1996 525i, 1990 Porsche 944S2
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10-19-2010, 04:21 AM	#59
toxicnerve Colonel 97 Rep 2,834 Posts Drives: E92 335d M-Sport Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK iTrader: (2)	xenon, is that 8-speed auto not the sport auto trans?
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10-19-2010, 04:22 AM	#60
xenon Major General 1397 Rep 8,083 Posts Drives: 2021 G21 330i M-Sport Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Coventry iTrader: (0)	^ sorry, I don't know the difference. __________________ Ian Current: 2021 G21 330i M-Sport Previous: 2018 A6 Avant S-Line MMI+, 2014 F31 320d M-Sport, 2013 F10 520d M-Sport, 2011 F10 530d M-Sport, 2008 320i M-Sport Coupe, 2002 325i, 2001 318i valvetronic, 1998 318i, 1996 525i, 1990 Porsche 944S2
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10-19-2010, 04:36 AM	#62
RagingKileak Brigadier General 191 Rep 4,655 Posts Drives: M3 CS Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Yorkshire iTrader: (2)	At the time, I bought my 335d for a mix of practicality (fuel economy and size/doors) and tuneability. There was simply no other way I could return 40+ mpg whilst in a 350+ bhp car. How would the remapped 335d vs remapped 330d argument go I wonder? I still think that the gearbox is weak/shit on the 335d, but 335Diesel has, in his defence, made the argument which most of the rest of us would usually fall back on (power/weight) which means it is hard to simply throw the usual derogatory nonsense at him. I'm with him on this, used like a manual, you can really make a 335d move - undoubtedly, it is unlikely to be as much fun as the manual 330d (though I challenge anyone to REALLY, TRULY believe that any diesel is as FUN as a petrol) and hence, could feel faster. Working a manual gearbox to its limits in and out of corners will always feel faster and more engaging than a big auto! Regards Matt
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10-19-2010, 04:41 AM	#63
xenon Major General 1397 Rep 8,083 Posts Drives: 2021 G21 330i M-Sport Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Coventry iTrader: (0)	Sorry 335d, didn't mean to upset you. We all know you own the best car ever created so don't feel the need to defend it so vociferously. I agree with what Matt (RK) says though. Undeniably the 335d can really shift and wasn't suggesting it wouldn't. I think in the real world the 330d would be as quick though and more fun to boot. Ultimately 335d loves his car and that's all that matters __________________ Ian Current: 2021 G21 330i M-Sport Previous: 2018 A6 Avant S-Line MMI+, 2014 F31 320d M-Sport, 2013 F10 520d M-Sport, 2011 F10 530d M-Sport, 2008 320i M-Sport Coupe, 2002 325i, 2001 318i valvetronic, 1998 318i, 1996 525i, 1990 Porsche 944S2
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10-19-2010, 04:44 AM	#64
toxicnerve Colonel 97 Rep 2,834 Posts Drives: E92 335d M-Sport Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK iTrader: (2)	There's not that much between the 330d and the 335d is there? 0.1 of a second to 62mph right? They're not leagues apart by any stretch of the imagination.
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10-19-2010, 04:53 AM	#66
chrisbin Colonel 112 Rep 2,333 Posts Drives: 640i MSport Coupe Join Date: May 2005 Location: S.Wales, UK iTrader: (1)	Auto Express = Sun Agreed!! Evo = pile of crap Personally I don't think so. Of the motoring mags available I believe its the best, but we're all entitled to an opinion of course! As for EVO hating diesels, not quite true.....they reckoned that the D3 Biturbo they ran was the best long-termer they have had, bar none... That said, however good they are, I will always enjoy driving (and listening to) a petrol engined car more than a diesel......and I guess thats where EVO will be coming from..... __________________ Current: F13 640i MSport, e85 Z4 3.0i Previous - Alpina D3 BiTurbo E90 LCI Manual, 320d M Sport E92 Auto, 330i M Sport E92 courtesy of BMW UK....320i M Sport E92 Auto, 320d SE E90 Manual.
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