[Dubbedoutbimmer]

Originally Posted by DJKhan85

I'm sure the carrera2s and the carrera4s people go to town with this argument as well.

Not really the C4S owns the C2S...see what I did there lol

[rkan]

I'm probably gonna get flamed for this but.....I think the "fun" factor of rw drive is my reason for going with a dedicated snows in the winter and choosing rw drive. C'mon who doesn't like occasionaly like hanging the tail out when there is no traffic? The ultimate speed/track time/grip may favor xdrive, but the driving dynamics of rw drive is way more fun imho.

[DenverJayhawk]

ah geez. This topic again? How many times will this topic come up?

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Dubbedoutbimmer

you sir are ignorant.....the Xi is actually quicker on paper according to BMW (no wheelspin perfect launches) I own a 2008 335xi coupe i love dusting my buddy's in 335i's off the line no matter if its Dry,Wet,Snow etc..I test drove a 335i the other day in the bad weather and it wasnt fun I couldnt get on the throttle at all etc.. snow tires + Xi = Epic Performance / drivability

This is incorrect, at least according to BMW. The 335i Xdrive is slightly quicker, simply because with all that torque, getting the power to the road is a major issue. With an engine as powerful as the wonderful N54, traction is going to be a limiting factor.

The N52 is a different story altogether. The Xdrive N52 is slower than the RWD, by fractions of second (again, according to the times at BMW's USA site) because power is the limiting factor there and not traction. You're talking about 3,500 to 3,800 pound vehicles with 230 HP.

In any case, the differences in acceleration are all minor. If you need AWD, you should go for it and power is going to be a non-issue in any case (becuase, IMO, ever E9x offers adequate acceleration).

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Again, that is a stupid comparison. Everyone wants to compare winter tires on RWD to All seasons on AWD. That's just stupid. If you are going to compare the drivetrains, all other aspects should be equal. An AWD car with snow tires is night and day to a RWD with snow tires. For those that think AWD makes no difference in the rain have never driven a car with AWD in the rain. That's just plain denial.

It may be a stupid comparison, but since C + D made that comparison and not me, I suggest you write them and complain. That said, even C & D acknowledged the validity of your point - the best of all worlds in snow is AWD with Snow tires. I don't think anybody could argue otherwise. The issues with Xdrive vs. RWD have to do with utility in other situations. Personally, if I live in the snowbelt, you would also find me in Xdrive with snow tires.

Now, to your second point, tell me exactly what the advantages of Xdrive will be on ordinary wet pavement (I'm talking without other significant compromises in traction being present - like snow, ice, or lots of mud).

[Dubbedoutbimmer]

Originally Posted by rkan

I'm probably gonna get flamed for this but.....I think the "fun" factor of rw drive is my reason for going with a dedicated snows in the winter and choosing rw drive. C'mon who doesn't like occasionaly like hanging the tail out when there is no traffic? The ultimate speed/track time/grip may favor xdrive, but the driving dynamics of rw drive is way more fun imho.

I put a chip on my car and almost shit my pants the car still gets sideways just pulling out of a side street lol and if I cut the wheel and punch the throttle yup a AWD doughnut ...I can drift the car get it sideways etc...really fun I did not like the RWD because it was so darty in the rain in the XI you can hammer on it in wet conditions and it just goes...when you want to have fun just turn off traction control and give her the gears....I have surprised many ppl who swear a AWD shouldnt be able to do these things lol

[Dubbedoutbimmer]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

This is incorrect, at least according to BMW. The 335i Xdrive is slightly quicker, simply because with all that torque, getting the power to the road is a major issue. With an engine as powerful as the wonderful N54, traction is going to be a limiting factor.

The N52 is a different story altogether. The Xdrive N52 is slower than the RWD, by fractions of second (again, according to the times at BMW's USA site) because power is the limiting factor there and not traction. You're talking about 3,500 to 3,800 pound vehicles with 230 HP.

In any case, the differences in acceleration are all minor. If you need AWD, you should go for it and power is going to be a non-issue in any case (becuase, IMO, ever E9x offers adequate acceleration).

what are you talking about ??? I wasnt speaking of the N52 I was speaking of the N54 (335xi coupe ) reread my post and look at what I drive then reply

[Dubbedoutbimmer]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

It may be a stupid comparison, but since C + D made that comparison and not me, I suggest you write them and complain. That said, even C & D acknowledged the validity of your point - the best of all worlds in snow is AWD with Snow tires.

Now, to your second point, tell me exactly what the advantages of Xdrive will be on ordinary wet pavement (I'm talking without other significant compromises in traction being present - like snow, ice, or lots of mud).

are you serious dude....lets go to a autox track or a drag strip I have run on both tracks damp, wet, even in flat out rain and out handle the 335i all day....please have a valid point of your own and stop post whoring pointless ignorant comments

[Dubbedoutbimmer]

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

ah geez. This topic again? How many times will this topic come up?

how many Elvis inpersonators are there?

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

It may be a stupid comparison, but since C + D made that comparison and not me, I suggest you write them and complain. That said, even C & D acknowledged the validity of your point - the best of all worlds in snow is AWD with Snow tires. I don't think anybody could argue otherwise. The issues with Xdrive vs. RWD have to do with utility in other situations. Personally, if I live in the snowbelt, you would also find me in Xdrive with snow tires.

Now, to your second point, tell me exactly what the advantages of Xdrive will be on ordinary wet pavement (I'm talking without other significant compromises in traction being present - like snow, ice, or lots of mud).

A wet road will have similar affects in traction to snow and ice, just at a lesser scale. I tracked my '05 STI at Laguna Seca a couple years back in the rain. Trust me when I say, the AWD cars on that day had a huge advantage over the RWD and FWD cars. It was night and day, especially at corner exit where I could accelerate hard out of the turn while the RWD cars simply could not without losing traction.

Go on youtube and search some of the old GT races in the rain where AUDI literally ruled the races to the point of eventually being banned due to the unfair advantage of AWD - especially in the rain. They are great visual demonstrations of the traction AWD can provide in the rain.

[cgpublic]

Southern Storm to Become Blizzard Saturday | 12/18/2009 10:27 AM by Alex Sosnowski, AccuWeather.com

Heavy snow has begun to fall in the Carolina mountains and is on track to become a very disruptive, wind-driven snowstorm from Roanoke, Va. to Washington, D.C. to New York City and Boston.

This will be a paralyzing "Super Saturday" snowstorm for millions of people. Massive travel problems are anticipated. Motorists could become stranded on roads. People should be prepared for long stays at airports. Road conditions will range from slushy and icy in some locations to snow covered with huge drifts in others. It will be a challenge for some road crews to keep up.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by Dubbedoutbimmer

how many Elvis inpersonators are there?

Less than the number of times this topic will come up!

Everyone wants to drive "in-theory." You can't simply just buy what makes you feel the best. Pro drivers from BMW did not recommend i-Drive. The latest mag discussed this and went clutch over the Porsche PDK and Mitsubishi system. Because it was about driving, not about track speed, as in the case of the pros from BMW.

If you like i-Drive, get it! If you don't, don't! I'm sure purists say don't.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by John 070

Less than the number of times this topic will come up!

Everyone wants to drive "in-theory." You can't simply just buy what makes you feel the best. Pro drivers from BMW did not recommend i-Drive. The latest mag discussed this and went clutch over the Porsche PDK and Mitsubishi system. Because it was about driving, not about track speed, as in the case of the pros from BMW.

If you like i-Drive, get it! If you don't, don't! I'm sure purists say don't.

"x-drive" i-drive is your nav etc interface.

[Dubbedoutbimmer]

Originally Posted by John 070

Less than the number of times this topic will come up!

Everyone wants to drive "in-theory." You can't simply just buy what makes you feel the best. Pro drivers from BMW did not recommend i-Drive. The latest mag discussed this and went clutch over the Porsche PDK and Mitsubishi system. Because it was about driving, not about track speed, as in the case of the pros from BMW.

If you like i-Drive, get it! If you don't, don't! I'm sure purists say don't.

that makes no sense we are talking about 335i (RWD) or 335XI (AWD) not iDrive (Navigation)

[Ti335]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

This is incorrect, at least according to BMW. The 335i Xdrive is slightly quicker, simply because with all that torque, getting the power to the road is a major issue. With an engine as powerful as the wonderful N54, traction is going to be a limiting factor.

Xdrive would only be faster if you beat the crap out of the car while launching from a stop (i.e. torque braking or dumping the clutch). That is what car mag editors do to get their lightning fast 0-60 numbers, but few people actually drive like that in their own cars. Under a normal launch, or once you're already moving, RWD will be faster due to lower weight and less drivetrain loss.

RWD also handles better and has less understeer due to its 50:50 weight distribution. It is also more stable at autobahn speed because there is no torque going to the front wheels.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

A wet road will have similar affects in traction to snow and ice, just at a lesser scale. I tracked my '05 STI at Laguna Seca a couple years back in the rain. Trust me when I say, the AWD cars on that day had a huge advantage over the RWD and FWD cars. It was night and day, especially at corner exit where I could accelerate hard out of the turn while the RWD cars simply could not without losing traction.

Go on youtube and search some of the old GT races in the rain where AUDI literally ruled the races to the point of eventually being banned due to the unfair advantage of AWD - especially in the rain. They are great visual demonstrations of the traction AWD can provide in the rain.

I'm not going to argue about what happens at the track, because I personally a bit more focused about what happens on the road under real world conditions (and I suspect the OP is as well). So, what happens at the track or in GT races is not of a whole lot of interst to me.

I will contend that traction under most circumstances is largely about tires. What AWD does is send power to a tire that has traction. That is a huge help in conditions where you are trying to climb up a hill under conditions of low traction (like climbing up a long snow covered driveway).

In rain, the traction issue is about minimizing the water that is in-between your tire and the road, and I don't believe AWD add much if anything in that circumstances. The traction issue in that circumstance is entirely about your tire.

The Audi system is a whole different ball of wax. Because it is a torque vectoring system (like the system on the X6 and on most Audis) it has a wider impact on handling.

None of that detracts from your original point, with which I totally agree. It is silly to compare AWD with all seasons to RWD with snow tires. Like apples to oranges....

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Ti335

Xdrive would only be faster if you beat the crap out of the car while launching from a stop (i.e. torque braking or dumping the clutch). That is what car mag editors do to get their lightning fast 0-60 numbers, but few people actually drive like that in their own cars. Under a normal launch, or once you're already moving, RWD will be faster due to lower weight and less drivetrain loss.

RWD also handles better and has less understeer due to its 50:50 weight distribution. It is also more stable at autobahn speed because there is no torque going to the front wheels.

For the most part, I agree with everything you are writing. I particularly agree with the handling comments.

However, I tend to trust the BMW 0-60 stats because they're conservative and they jive with the numbers reported by other sources that test with real world techniques (like Consumer Reports) and not all the silly techniques you describe above (which are definitely used by C & D, R & T, etc). BMWUSA.com shows the xdrive as being a hair faster (i think by .1 seconds). Certainly, the difference is not great enough to even thing about. But, I believe this shows that improved traction can make up for added weight.

I am also not sure about the autobahn stuff. its not that I disagree, just that I don't really know what is involved in stability at speeds that high because I'm used to driving in congested urban areas.

[Schmed]

Originally Posted by 742

But that is exactly what many of the AWD advocates/buyers do. Just look in these BMW forums, "...I got an xi because I don't want to change tires" is a common theme. There are far, far too many drivers in AWD vehicles with all season tires who are convinced that they are safer than the other mere mortals in their FWD or, God Forbid, RWD cars. And they drive like it, apparently thinking that AWD makes the car stick to the road through some magic.

All drive trains have advantages and disadvantages. And there are good reasons for individuals to choose one over the other. But the guy who thinks AWD, in and of itself, makes him safer in the winter is a threat to himself and other drivers. And the salesmen who sell it on that basis should be shot.

Driver training and proper rubber are what reduce the risk of getting hurt in the snow and ice. AWD can keep you from getting stuck, but no one ever died from that. At least not at the rate they die from wrapping their cars around trees.

AWD, in the hands of the average American driver, appears to be a result of our obsession with large engines and automatic transmissions, combined with our inability to use our right foot with any finesse. Again, there are good reasons to buy an AWD vehicle -- but for what I see, where I live, most of the owners buy it in the belief that it makes them safer when the snow flies. These are the same people who buy their tires based on cost and how long they are guaranteed to last.

This should be the end-all to the Xi / i discussion. Nicely done.

(except for shooting the salesman. Maybe we can just waterboard the salesman?)

[Dubbedoutbimmer]

Originally Posted by Ti335

Xdrive would only be faster if you beat the crap out of the car while launching from a stop (i.e. torque braking or dumping the clutch). That is what car mag editors do to get their lightning fast 0-60 numbers, but few people actually drive like that in their own cars. Under a normal launch, or once you're already moving, RWD will be faster due to lower weight and less drivetrain loss.

RWD also handles better and has less understeer due to its 50:50 weight distribution. It is also more stable at autobahn speed because there is no torque going to the front wheels.

you are not speaking from experience.......I have had my car at the 155 top speed limiter flat out for long periods of time during a charity rally and it had no problems it was like cruising at 90 and you dont have to "Beat The Crap" out of the car to get a decent trap time or launch you just have to be a good drive

[noro]

Originally Posted by Schmed

(except for shooting the salesman. Maybe we can just waterboard the salesman?)

Here is US we do not waterboard. Shooting is ok though.

[Dubbedoutbimmer]

Originally Posted by Schmed

This should be the end-all to the Xi / i discussion. Nicely done.

(except for shooting the salesman. Maybe we can just waterboard the salesman?)

nah human rights BS now blah blah blah....just take him out back the wood shed

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Dubbedoutbimmer

what are you talking about ??? I wasnt speaking of the N52 I was speaking of the N54 (335xi coupe ) reread my post and look at what I drive then reply

I think you are missing the point. In my post, I noted that the Xdrive N54 was SLIGHTLY quicker. According to BMW the differences is an entire .1 seconds. In other words, negligable. In the case of the N52, the Xdrive is bit slower (.7 in the manual form, I believe). The argument that AWD automatically makes the car faster holds no water, regardless of the engine you are talking about. At best, you could argue that with enough torque, the added traction will make up for the losses associated with greater weight.

Personally, I'm far more convinced by actual objective tests rather than some poster on the net who brags about how he can dust his buddy.