[Ti335]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I am also not sure about the autobahn stuff. its not that I disagree, just that I don't really know what is involved in stability at speeds that high because I'm used to driving in congested urban areas.

I'm sure you've heard of torque steer. The effect is especially pronounced when accelerating hard or when going at very fast speeds. FWD cars are the worst because 100% of the torque goes to the front wheels (try taking a FWD car to even 100 mph and you'll see what I'm talking about). AWD cars are much better than their FWD counterparts in this regard but still not quite as stable as RWD cars, which have zero torque steer.

Another side effect of having both the drivetrain and the steering mechanism connected to the same set of wheels is increased vibration though the steering wheel, which again becomes more pronounced the faster you go. There's a reason why M cars are RWD (with the exception of the SUVs of course).

[Schmed]

Originally Posted by Dubbedoutbimmer

so much incorrect info I dont know where to begin.....

Go ahead. Begin. I've got plenty of time.

[Ti335]

Originally Posted by Dubbedoutbimmer

you are not speaking from experience.......I have had my car at the 155 top speed limiter flat out for long periods of time during a charity rally and it had no problems it was like cruising at 90 and you dont have to "Beat The Crap" out of the car to get a decent trap time or launch you just have to be a good drive

You need to take it easy and lay off the keyboard for a while. You've got more posts in this thread than everyone else combined....WTF?? I know it's hard to accept that other people don't always agree with you, but that's life, bud.

[Dubbedoutbimmer]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I think you are missing the point. In my post, I noted that the Xdrive N54 was SLIGHTLY quicker. According to BMW the differences is an entire .1 seconds. In other words, negligable. In the case of the N52, the Xdrive is bit slower (.7 in the manual form, I believe). The argument that AWD automatically makes the car faster holds no water, regardless of the engine you are talking about. At best, you could argue that with enough torque, the added traction will make up for the losses associated with greater weight.

Personally, I'm far more convinced by actual objective tests rather than some poster on the net who brags about how he can dust his buddy.

I give up with you....I was talking about the 335xi I dont care about the 328xi...........

[noro]

This thread is too much fun... my daddy can beat up your daddy!

We can argue all year long. But the reality seems to be that we the RWD guys that live in all-season areas seem to get around just fine, much like you the AWD guys.

So it looks like we can accomplish the same with just 2 wheels spinning that you can accomplish with all 4.

The fact still remains that real BMW's are only rear wheel drive.

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by noro

This thread is too much fun... my daddy can beat up your daddy!

We can argue all year long. But the reality seems to be that we the RWD guys that live in all-season areas seem to get around just fine, much like you the AWD guys.

So it looks like we can accomplish the same with just 2 wheels spinning that you can accomplish with all 4.

The fact still remains that real BMW's are only rear wheel drive.

The thing is, AWD doesn't come in handy with 2 freaking feet of snow expected! This is very rare here in MD!

[matts335]

Originally Posted by noro

This thread is too much fun... my daddy can beat up your daddy!

Oh yeah? Well my Daddy can out drink your daddy.

[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I will contend that traction under most circumstances is largely about tires. What AWD does is send power to a tire that has traction. That is a huge help in conditions where you are trying to climb up a hill under conditions of low traction (like climbing up a long snow covered driveway).

In rain, the traction issue is about minimizing the water that is in-between your tire and the road, and I don't believe AWD add much if anything in that circumstances. The traction issue in that circumstance is entirely about your tire.

There is a left I make at a light just about every day going home. I have an E46 330CiC (RWD), as well as two AWD cars (VW R32, 335xi). The convertible has relatively new Michelin Pilot Sport A/S tires. I also have close to twenty days of ontrack driving. Virtually every time I take that turn in the convertible on a wet day, I will lose traction and experience oversteer. Even trying to correct for it, be gentle on the throttle, anticipate the issue, it still happens.

I have never experienced anything remotely similar om either AWD car. So even with decent tires, track experience, several years of experience in RWD, and anticipating the issue, I still have a problem in rainy conditions with RWD that AWD never sees. It is just one corner, and I suspect their might be something else with that corner (camber, oil/grease), but no, I really get no joy out of hanging the tail out -- I'd rather always feel in control.

[Dubbedoutbimmer]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

The thing is, AWD doesn't come in handy with 2 freaking feet of snow expected! This is very rare here in MD!

I dunno to each his own here in NH we just had 12" and i did fine.

happy holidays to all

[deletedelete]

I dont understand the argument here. We know that an awd system with snows is better then rwd with snows. So theres no argument that an xi is better in wet or snowy conditions.

So the argument is what? That an xi is worse around the track? Thats its slower in a straight line? Well its not. The xi can get the same performance numbers as an i. So how is the xi not a true bmw? Should I sue bmw for fraud for selling me a rebadged daewoo? I have a bmw just like you, who can get the same performance numbers, and get around in bad weather better then you. Go read the new thread in the xi section where even with snows the rwd couldnt get up the driveway, but the xi did.

Saying an rwd bmw is the only true bmw is just as dumb as the m guys saying that an m is the only true bmw. My xi can do things that your rwd cannot. So why would I want a rwd? Track times....the same. Drag times.....the same. All weather.....only xi. xi wins.

edit: oh and for whoever said that xi doesnt get as good mpg is wrong. Under the same conditions the xi will do slightly worse but nobody drives in identical conditions. I get 25.2 average with a mix of city and highway. Thats better then many rwd guys who obviously drive harder then me. So I can get just as good of mpg depending on my driving habits.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony

I dont understand the argument here. We know that an awd system with snows is better then rwd with snows. So theres no argument that an xi is better in wet or snowy conditions.



edit: oh and for whoever said that xi doesnt get as good mpg is wrong. Under the same conditions the xi will do slightly worse but nobody drives in identical conditions. I get 25.2 average with a mix of city and highway. Thats better then many rwd guys who obviously drive harder then me. So I can get just as good of mpg depending on my driving habits.

I disagree with first point. First, I maintain that Xdrive offers no real advantages in wet.

second, the EPA MPG figures are pretty clear. The RWD does get better mileage than AWD and the isn't even a debatable point.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Dubbedoutbimmer

I give up with you....I was talking about the 335xi I dont care about the 328xi...........

You're still missing the point. It isn't about the N54, the N52, 335xi or 328xi. The point is that your claim that your car is faster because of AWD is simply false. Across the entire BMW line (including the 335i, if me bringing up the AWD is causing you brain hemorage), there isn't much difference in 0-60 times. For the 335i, the times are nearly identical. The additional traction is great, but the weight still exacts its toll.

Of course, if you want to give up with me, I won't complain. You posts are a bit painful to read, to be frank.

[DenverJayhawk]

Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony

I dont understand the argument here. We know that an awd system with snows is better then rwd with snows. So theres no argument that an xi is better in wet or snowy conditions.

So the argument is what? That an xi is worse around the track? Thats its slower in a straight line? Well its not. The xi can get the same performance numbers as an i. So how is the xi not a true bmw? Should I sue bmw for fraud for selling me a rebadged daewoo? I have a bmw just like you, who can get the same performance numbers, and get around in bad weather better then you. Go read the new thread in the xi section where even with snows the rwd couldnt get up the driveway, but the xi did.

Saying an rwd bmw is the only true bmw is just as dumb as the m guys saying that an m is the only true bmw. My xi can do things that your rwd cannot. So why would I want a rwd? Track times....the same. Drag times.....the same. All weather.....only xi. xi wins.

edit: oh and for whoever said that xi doesnt get as good mpg is wrong. Under the same conditions the xi will do slightly worse but nobody drives in identical conditions. I get 25.2 average with a mix of city and highway. Thats better then many rwd guys who obviously drive harder then me. So I can get just as good of mpg depending on my driving habits.

Sorry. Given the same driver using equal driving habits between the stock AWD and RWD versions of the car, the RWD will get better MPG. So if those folks with RWD that drive more aggressively than you decide to adopt the exact same driving habits as you, they will always get better fuel economy than you no matter what you do. This is a fact. Don't try to argue this as you'll just look foolish.

BTW, I'm not slamming AWD at all. My other vehicle has AWD and I love it.

[deletedelete]

Do you people not READ the posts. I clearly said that all things being equal the awd WILL get less mpg. However, because driving habits differ, it is very easy to achieve better mpg then a rwd guy who drives hard. I average 25.2 mpg with a mix of hard and soft driving. That is better then many rwd who drives hard all the time. Any car can get good mpg if you drive it lightly and correctly. We do not drive equally. I happen to get better mpg that many rwd guys, so the mpg argument is invalid with me.

[noro]

Doing most with the least is a beautiful thing. If this phrase isn't immediately apparent let break it down.

There are 365 days in a year. I believe most of us here (if not all) can claim that they spend majority of those days driving in dry or wet conditions and not in snow. Which means that you spend lots of days toting around an extra differential, 2 half shafts and dozens of other parts in your drivetrain for those very special few days. Add the extra fuel that the system requires along with the front tire wear. Those of you that are into stop light to stop light racing (I am using the term racing loosely) need to understand that for every time your wheels don't loose traction during take-off your clutch is taking an immense beating. I am not even going to dive into such terminology as added understeer and resistance to turn-in. Added rotation components such as the gearing for the front end and the halfshafts carry a good amount of rotational momentum that needs to be converted to heat during braking, which in turn translates to more actual front pad material needed to slow down the car (all other things being equal).

Doing most with the least is a beautiful thing.

Looks like the storm is going to hit us sunday, I plan on going up my 20 degree incline driveway as usual.

cheers.

[deletedelete]

Originally Posted by noro

Doing most with the least is a beautiful thing. If this phrase isn't immediately apparent let break it down.

There are 365 days in a year. I believe most of us here (if not all) can claim that they spend majority of those days driving in dry or wet conditions and not in snow. Which means that you spend lots of days toting around an extra differential, 2 half shafts and dozens of other parts in your drivetrain for those very special few days. Add the extra fuel that the system requires along with the front tire wear. Those of you that are into stop light to stop light racing (I am using the term racing loosely) need to understand that for every time your wheels don't loose traction during take-off your clutch is taking an immense beating. I am not even going to dive into such terminology as added understeer and resistance to turn-in. Added rotation components such as the gearing for the front end and the halfshafts carry a good amount of rotational momentum that needs to be converted to heat during braking, which in turn translates to more actual front pad material needed to slow down the car (all other things being equal).

Doing most with the least is a beautiful thing.

Looks like the storm is going to hit us sunday, I plan on going up my 20 degree incline driveway as usual.

cheers.

So what your saying is, is that we should all drive the least complicated vehicle? So you should get rid of your bmws and get a toyota yaris or whatever the most basic form of transportation is? There are guys that beat the crap out of their cars and they are doing fine including the tuner test cars. None of your points have anything to do with whether somebody should get an xi or not. I guess we should all trade in our bmws to get a kia or toyota or whichever has the least moving parts. Guess I shouldnt get a car without airbags or sealbelts since I dont use them all the time. lol, you rwd guys are really grasping now.

Nobody has made a valid argument about why my xi is worse then a rwd. Its not, my xi suits me better then a rwd for what I use my car for. Saying that its not truly a bmw is absurd, and I cant take that seriously. The rwd guys and m3 guys must all drink the same kool aid. They are the only true bmws!

[John 070]

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

Sorry. Given the same driver using equal driving habits between the stock AWD and RWD versions of the car, the RWD will get better MPG.

It's embarrassing that anyone on this forum would actually believe that's not true. I almost wonder if they believe that AWD is simply something such as unlocking a license in software? Truly bizarre.....

The 328xi loaner got 15 mpg for me, blame it on steptronic, blame it on the fact it had 0 miles on it, whatever, it's poor any way you slice it. Even the X5 got 16, and that has a different motor and AWD.

[noro]

I think you are clinging on my "RWD is the only real BMW" thing a little too much. Obviously any car built by BMW is real.

As I said before this topic is on par of discussing religion. Nobody here is going to convince anyone else to change their mind.

There are PLENTY of valid arguments here, contrary to what you say. It's your choice to "invalidate" them.

The OP simply asked a question, each side argued their point and that is all to it.

[DenverJayhawk]

Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony

Do you people not READ the posts. I clearly said that all things being equal the awd WILL get less mpg. However, because driving habits differ, it is very easy to achieve better mpg then a rwd guy who drives hard. I average 25.2 mpg with a mix of hard and soft driving. That is better then many rwd who drives hard all the time. Any car can get good mpg if you drive it lightly and correctly. We do not drive equally. I happen to get better mpg that many rwd guys, so the mpg argument is invalid with me.

OK. Your point is well stated. I can agree the mpg argument might be invalid to YOU because of your moderate driving habits. But to the EPA and the rest of the world, the mpg argument between AWD and RWD is very valid to them. Most people will realize decreased MPGs with AWD vs their RWD counterparts regardless of driving habits.

[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by noro

Doing most with the least is a beautiful thing.

Are you even for real? Do you know how full of crap you come across (at least to us AWD "fanboys"), when I see that statement in your post, and look right below it and see those two cars in your sig. Most with the least -- why aren't you driving a RWD 128, if you want to talk about most with the least.

If my point isn't immediately obvious, let me break it down for you. There are a lot of components of your 335i that aren't really necessary -- hello, 18"/19" wheels, power seats, runflats, etc. Deciding to just single out AWD as the one unnecessary component is a silly. Hell, most people would say twin turbos are unnecessary, and no BMW should have forced injection. Those turbos and assocatied hardware add an awful lot of weight to the front end.

Go now, trade in your 335 on a MINI Cooper, then come back and start preaching about most with the least.

[markinva]

man... we will have snow on the ground for weeks due to this pending snowstorm

so glad I have xdrive

I may just go out shopping tomorrow because I can!

[deletedelete]

Originally Posted by John 070

It's embarrassing that anyone on this forum would actually believe that's not true. I almost wonder if they believe that AWD is simply something such as unlocking a license in software? Truly bizarre.....

The 328xi loaner got 15 mpg for me, blame it on steptronic, blame it on the fact it had 0 miles on it, whatever, it's poor any way you slice it. Even the X5 got 16, and that has a different motor and AWD.

I hope your not referring to me as I stated it depends on driving habits. I get 25.2 mpg on my tuned 335xi. You get worse mpg in your 328xi somehow! I get great mpg but have zero city driving. My 335 is only used for joy riding on the highways and turns. I dont commute or ever go near a city or red lights. Which is how I achieve 25.2mpg while driving hard 70% of the time. I bet I would get almost 30mpg if I had a rwd.

Get an awd if you want the benefits of an awd. Get the rwd if you want the benefits of a rwd. Seems simple to me. We are different people with different likes. I mean come on, there are people who like honda civics with fart can mufflers and aircraft sized wings on the trunk. BMW owners who are passionate about their rides should be able to get along.