[f82_spooly]

2011 335is 6mt. No mods besides DCI & BMS cowl filters. Was at a stop light and saw a yellow battery light pop up then got a CEL and it started idling unevenly bouncing from 1-2k RPM. Pulled over at a gas station had my brother bring a scanner and found all these codes.

Car was running perfectly fine until this happened. Now it cranks but doesn't start. Checked the rear battery negative cable and it was a little loose pushed it down hard and it started but still uneven idle. Now it cranks but does not start anymore.

Here is a picture of codes. Thoughts?

[ckev70]

you may have 2 problems. Car should'nt fail while driving unless there are electrical issues. I would check battery - the Scan tool can check the Battery Histogram on the last 5 charges. If the battery is good and won't start, the Starter has failed.

[f82_spooly]

Originally Posted by ckev70

you may have 2 problems. Car should'nt fail while driving unless there are electrical issues. I would check battery - the Scan tool can check the Battery Histogram on the last 5 charges. If the battery is good and won't start, the Starter has failed.

Update: car cranks and starts but rough idle bouncing from 1-2k RPM. Also the scanner showed 9.0V. But I think that's because I was constantly trying to start it? And the car DOES crank over and start? So...?

[ckev70]

Try jump starting the car. 9V is way too low.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by e92life

Update: car cranks and starts but rough idle bouncing from 1-2k RPM. Also the scanner showed 9.0V. But I think that's because I was constantly trying to start it? And the car DOES crank over and start? So...?

The codes your posted earlier all read "NOT present" EXCEPT (1) the DME Relay Activation fault (2ACB) and (2) the CAS Start Signal Fault (AOB4). That last fault is NOT consistent with your starter cranking on ALL occasions you tried to restart the engine. As I understand it that fault ONLY occurs if the CAS fails to provide voltage to the Starter Solenoid when START is pressed with clutch pedal pressed (M/T).

So simply based upon those codes, it would appear that there was an electrical fault in the power supply to the DME which caused the DME Relay to NOT power the DME, which caused the other fault codes related to cam position, etc.

I would record ALL DME fault codes and FF Data related to mileage at the time of each fault & other engine conditions, CLEAR all codes, and see what comes back. Then get/post FULL Fault Definitions, Details & Freeze Frame Data related to any remaining/returning fault, and we have a better chance of suggesting further testing.

I am concerned about the loose Negative Battery Cable. BEFORE doing anything else, tighten that cable to the Negative Terminal properly per this TIS Procedure:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...holder/FajkOes

The battery serves as a buffer to prevent harmful voltage spikes to the electronic modules such as the DME, and a battery cable should NEVER be disconnected while the motor is running. The yellow battery light on your instrument cluster suggests some type of voltage variation occurred.

The most concerning Fault code you show is "2DEB." That "2DEB" BMW FC can mean several things (is associated with 3 different P-codes per Bentley):
P160C | 2DEB | Powermanagement Overvoltage
P160D | 2DEB | Powermanagement Undervolatge
P160E | 2DEB | Powermanagement Operation Without Battery

I would immediately test for system voltage (using scan tool reading that parameter, or using "Hidden Menu 9.00" per the link below, and determine IF the alternator output voltage exceeds 15.0V while motor is running. If it DOES, shut it down before harmful overvoltage affects control modules such as the DME:
http://e90.wikifoundry.com/page/BC+hidden+menus

Also, please identify make/model of any Scan Tool (Autel MaxiSys?) or software available to you, and if it is capable of reading P-codes in addition to BMW FC, please provide P-code equivalent, and/or more specific DEFINITION of code (simply identifying the "Power Management System" without MORE is NOT terribly helpful.

George

[relative4]

Don't overcomplicate this. If you were able to "push down" the negative battery connector, it was too loose and may have corrosion between the terminal and clamp. Disconnect, clean, attach properly, charge fully, clear codes, run the car, verify battery conditin.

[f82_spooly]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

The codes your posted earlier all read "NOT present" EXCEPT (1) the DME Relay Activation fault (2ACB) and (2) the CAS Start Signal Fault (AOB4). That last fault is NOT consistent with your starter cranking on ALL occasions you tried to restart the engine. As I understand it that fault ONLY occurs if the CAS fails to provide voltage to the Starter Solenoid when START is pressed with clutch pedal pressed (M/T).

So simply based upon those codes, it would appear that there was an electrical fault in the power supply to the DME which caused the DME Relay to NOT power the DME, which caused the other fault codes related to cam position, etc.

I would record ALL DME fault codes and FF Data related to mileage at the time of each fault & other engine conditions, CLEAR all codes, and see what comes back. Then get/post FULL Fault Definitions, Details & Freeze Frame Data related to any remaining/returning fault, and we have a better chance of suggesting further testing.

I am concerned about the loose Negative Battery Cable. BEFORE doing anything else, tighten that cable to the Negative Terminal properly per this TIS Procedure:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...holder/FajkOes

The battery serves as a buffer to prevent harmful voltage spikes to the electronic modules such as the DME, and a battery cable should NEVER be disconnected while the motor is running. The yellow battery light on your instrument cluster suggests some type of voltage variation occurred.

The most concerning Fault code you show is "2DEB." That "2DEB" BMW FC can mean several things (is associated with 3 different P-codes per Bentley):
P160C | 2DEB | Powermanagement Overvoltage
P160D | 2DEB | Powermanagement Undervolatge
P160E | 2DEB | Powermanagement Operation Without Battery

I would immediately test for system voltage (using scan tool reading that parameter, or using "Hidden Menu 9.00" per the link below, and determine IF the alternator output voltage exceeds 15.0V while motor is running. If it DOES, shut it down before harmful overvoltage affects control modules such as the DME:
http://e90.wikifoundry.com/page/BC+hidden+menus

Also, please identify make/model of any Scan Tool (Autel MaxiSys?) or software available to you, and if it is capable of reading P-codes in addition to BMW FC, please provide P-code equivalent, and/or more specific DEFINITION of code (simply identifying the "Power Management System" without MORE is NOT terribly helpful.

George

Thank you for your thorough input and answer. I have Autel Maxisys. I bolted down the battery cable as it was a little loose.

Attached is a video of what it is doing

Incorrect title for video^ car is started just idling roughly as seen bouncing rpms

[N52bigblock]

Originally Posted by relative4

Don't overcomplicate this. If you were able to "push down" the negative battery connector, it was too loose and may have corrosion between the terminal and clamp. Disconnect, clean, attach properly, charge fully, clear codes, run the car, verify battery conditin.

Totally agree with this statement. Check all the basics first before getting carried away with complicated things. Do all of what relative4 has said and also check alternator charge rate while the engine is running. If the system voltage is 9v as you say the car will NEVER run properly and there will be multiple warning lights. The system voltage when the car is running should be about 14v. Check the basics first!!

[f82_spooly]

Originally Posted by neilj35

Totally agree with this statement. Check all the basics first before getting carried away with complicated things. Do all of what relative4 has said and also check alternator charge rate while the engine is running. If the system voltage is 9v as you say the car will NEVER run properly and there will be multiple warning lights. The system voltage when the car is running should be about 14v. Check the basics first!!

how can I check the alternator charge rate ??

[N52bigblock]

Originally Posted by e92life

how can I check the alternator charge rate ??

I'm guessing you don't have a a digital multimeter then? If not plug your scan tool in while the engine is running and look for the system voltage. It should be about 13.5v to 14.5v

[N52bigblock]

Its in the top right corner of your scan tool screen next to the battery symbol

[f82_spooly]

So ended up finding out that I was looking at the Autel scanner version instead of the voltage so that takes that out of the picture lol. The voltage when the car is turned on but not running is 12.23 or so. I didn't check when i actually turned the car on with engine running.

Since the bouncing rpm is indicative of a throttle body issue we took apart the throttle body cleaned it and put a mirror down there and noticed that when I pressed the gas the flapper wasn't opening?

Since I had the camshaft sensor code I decided to buy the camshaft sensor and see if that does anything.

For some reason I don't believe its the battery/starter since the car
's interior lights are fine not weak or flickering and the car cranks but doesn't start multiple times with no sound of the starter sounding bad.

I truly think its an electrical issue of some sort because all these sensors wouldn't go bad out of nowhere.

Attached is s picture of the green corrosion on the ground strap but it's not frayed or anything so ?

[e90yyc]

Thanks for posting those pics.

I’m confused though... Before you start throwing parts at your car hoping to solve the issue, don’t you think it would be wise to rule out some of the basic stuff (as others have mentioned)?

Hook up a multimeter and check for voltage fluctuations while your car is running. Is there anything funky going on there? If not, move on to the next thing.

If you suspect it’s electrically-related, but haven’t actually solved the underlying issue, then what is the point of installing new parts only to risk potential damage to them? Maybe I’m missing something here, but it’s definitely worth taking a few steps back.

These cars are SO sensitive to electrical issues as simple as low voltage and weak battery conditions. I’ve been in multiple BMW’s where the entire spectrum of warning lights and messages start to come up simply because the battery is dying. And you can bet there is a whole whack of errors being thrown.

As George suggested, take a photo or write down codes that are present. Clear them. See what comes back, and then start troubleshooting based on that info.


Best of luck!

[N52bigblock]

You really should listen to what people are saying here. E90yyc and George know what they are talking about and i have been a Mechanic for over 25 years. Check the charge rate first! Then if that's no good maybe start panicking then if you like. It's quite simple really.

[f82_spooly]

Found out it was fuse 37 that was blown. Replaced fuse and car started working again. Now windows/interior lighting/headlight rings and rear reverse light won't work and getting FRM faults so they think FRM died when they replaced fuse. Going to call BMW and see if they'll replace it.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by e92life

Found out it was fuse 37 that was blown. Replaced fuse and car started working again. Now windows/interior lighting/headlight rings and rear reverse light won't work and getting FRM faults [Please LIST FRM faults NOW existing] so they think FRM died when they replaced fuse. [WHO is "they"] Going to call BMW and see if they'll replace it.

As suggested earlier in this thread, the failure to start was due to lack of Power Supply to the DME, and F37 is the fuse to which power is supplied by the DME Relay (K6300) in this TIS circuit diagram:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-fuse/CkSdKrsK

So THAT explains why the crank but NO START condition -- simple fuse replacement, with NOTHING else wrong IF the loose battery cable simply caused a voltage spike (motor running/ alternator charging) that blew the fuse.

WHY are there NOW FRM FAULTS???
WHO has worked on your vehicle since the shutdown and since you first posted the photos of your Autel MaxiSys scan tool DME & CAS codes?
WHAT modules were scanned at that time, or was the Autel tool giving ALL faults in ALL modules?
In other words, do you KNOW that there were NO FRM faults on 2/23/2019?

If there were NO FRM faults after the battery cable was properly attached, but there ARE such FRM faults NOW, after fuse replacement, I would want whoever worked on your car and replaced that fuse to explain why there are NOW FRM faults where none existed before.

BEFORE calling a lawyer I would suggest simply checking the four FRM fuses to make sure they are intact. That would be fuses F41, F81, F84 & F86 per the following TIS circuit diagram:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...odule/GSAMNOou

Since F41 is diagonally-adjacent to F37, I would start by looking at that. I'll attach screenprints of the Bentley Fuse Chart for E9x models built after 9/2007 to the next post.

George

[gbalthrop]

2008 & later E9x fuse charts (Bentley) attached, 2 pdfs:

[f82_spooly]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

As suggested earlier in this thread, the failure to start was due to lack of Power Supply to the DME, and F37 is the fuse to which power is supplied by the DME Relay (K6300) in this TIS circuit diagram:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-fuse/CkSdKrsK

So THAT explains why the crank but NO START condition -- simple fuse replacement, with NOTHING else wrong IF the loose battery cable simply caused a voltage spike (motor running/ alternator charging) that blew the fuse.

WHY are there NOW FRM FAULTS???
WHO has worked on your vehicle since the shutdown and since you first posted the photos of your Autel MaxiSys scan tool DME & CAS codes?
WHAT modules were scanned at that time, or was the Autel tool giving ALL faults in ALL modules?
In other words, do you KNOW that there were NO FRM faults on 2/23/2019?

If there were NO FRM faults after the battery cable was properly attached, but there ARE such FRM faults NOW, after fuse replacement, I would want whoever worked on your car and replaced that fuse to explain why there are NOW FRM faults where none existed before.

BEFORE calling a lawyer I would suggest simply checking the four FRM fuses to make sure they are intact. That would be fuses F41, F81, F84 & F86 per the following TIS circuit diagram:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...odule/GSAMNOou

Since F41 is diagonally-adjacent to F37, I would start by looking at that. I'll attach screenprints of the Bentley Fuse Chart for E9x models built after 9/2007 to the next post.

George

Not sure why there is FRM faults now but I DO recall my drivers side window going all the way up passed the top of the roof a little bit. I do NOT know if there was ANY FRM faults though before. Everything WAS working though instrument cluster, headlight rings, interior lighting, and rear reverse lights.

The shop stated that these FRM faults appeared 8 miles ago according to his scanner. But I haven't driven the car since it went down about 5-6 days ago. Only I worked on the car.

Autel was giving faults in ALL modules. I did a full scan.

The shop told me they tried to revive the FRM but they stated that there was no communication to it.

I'll check the fuses today and report back my findings.

Appreciate the info and those diagrams you posted are very useful.

[f82_spooly]

Okay guys so here's what happened. Brought car to a shop they figured out it was fuse 37 blown. Replaced fuse car started back up. BUT none of my interior lights, turn signals, OR headlight rings were working OR windows. Shop said they have no communication with FRM so they said FRM died and just to get it replaced at BMW.

Drove it an hour away back home then drove around for another day and then tire blew. Car has been parked for a couple days got a tire and replaced it.

Went to BMW today to get FRM replaced and when they went on a test drive AFTER replacing my FRM to check that everything was good car went into limp mode with 4-16 codes that I showed in my first post. They were flabbergasted and i told them if they can check the fuse 37 they replaced it and all is well now.

Service advisor told me I should look into this because that fuse shouldn't be blowing like that and when I took car home about 30 mins away I was on a street when the fuse blew again for the 3rd TIME and left my car immobile. LUCKILY he gave me a fuse JUST in case and I made it back home as soon as I replaced it. Thoughts?

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by e92life

Okay guys so here's what happened. Brought car to a shop they figured out it was fuse 37 blown. Replaced fuse car started back up. BUT none of my interior lights, turn signals, OR headlight rings were working OR windows. Shop said they have no communication with FRM so they said FRM died and just to get it replaced at BMW...
Went to BMW today to get FRM replaced and when they went on a test drive AFTER replacing my FRM to check that everything was good car went into limp mode with 4-16 codes that I showed in my first post. They were flabbergasted and i told them if they can check the fuse 37 they replaced it and all is well now.

Service advisor told me I should look into this [wise man ] because that fuse shouldn't be blowing like that and when I took car home about 30 mins away I was on a street when the fuse blew again for the 3rd TIME and left my car immobile. LUCKILY he gave me a fuse JUST in case and I made it back home as soon as I replaced it. Thoughts?

Have you identified any specific event that causes F37 to blow? What happens when you select Reverse Gear with your M/T? I may have previousy provided the WRONG F37 Fuse Circuit for your July 2010 Build Date 335is E92 with M/T and N54 engine. The correct TIS diagrams are linked below.

Have you noticed ANY event that occurs or any control selection that you make, that causes F37 to blow. Perhaps something as routine and NOT readily connected to the event, such as selecting Reverse Gear? (See Below) If the fuse blowing does NOT seem to be related to how long the engine runs, or any other time- or heat-related factor, diagnosis gets more difficult.

I notice that in the F37 fuse circuit, power from F37 goes through connector X6011, Pin #3. The Red/White wire comes from the fuse to one side of that connector, and the Orange wire goes from that Pin #3 on the other side of the connector, to the DME. Here is the TIS F37 circuit diagram. Notice also the other EIGHT (8) components served by that fuse, including the Coolant Pump Control Circuit, Thermostat, VANOS Solenoids, Camshaft Sensors, and Pressure Converters. You could have ANYTHING in that circuit drawing excessive current and blowing F37. Rather than go through a shoebox full of fuses, you can simply measure resistance in relation to chassis ground at Pin #3 of Connector X6011, and disconnect components connected via the Orange wires shown in the circuit diagram:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...4-fuse/i1ukJnB

Here is the Installation Location for X6011 in the E-box:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e92-335i-cou/S7vd3wc

Here is the Reversing Light Switch for the M/T model. Note that the switch mounted on the transmission sends a ground signal to Pin #9 of Connector X6011, on its way to the FRM module. I have just seen another reported case of Reverse Gear Selection on M/T model blowing F01 on a 2006 model involving the same or similar Connector in the E-box, so wiring errors DO happen. Anyone been disconnecting/re-connecting things in the E-box lately?
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ights/Ckc2DQzS

I have NO way of knowing what is causing the issue in your case, but I simply offer that different-vehicle case as an example of what can happen. Testing for short to ground (near-zero resistance) in the circuit, and then disconnecting components one-at-a-time to see when resistance suddenly increases, is one way to test. With intermittent faults, that can be difficult however.

Please let us know what you find,
George

[tsaulz]

Reviving this thread. I was driving on the highway today, accelerating in third, when the half engine light came on and the engine shut off. I tried to restart it, and it cranked but wouldn't fire up. Checked F37, and it was blown. And, it re-blows whenever I try to star the car - had to get a tow.

I checked pin 3 of X6011, and I get no resistance reading, whereas I get values for each of pins 1, 2, and 4. I disconnected the boost solenoids, and still get no resistance reading on pin 3.

George, do I understand you correctly, that I need to continue to disconnect additional components served by F37 and see if I get a resistance reading? Do I need a new fuse in F37 for such testing?

Thanks a ton for your help.

EDIT: I should note that I got the yellow battery light at the time of the failure, and when trying (unsuccessfully) to crank the car afterwards. Additionally, I'm not confident that I'm properly testing resistance at pin 3 because a get a 0 even reading, rather than a number approach zero.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by tsaulz

[2008 335i E93(?)]... accelerating in third, when the half engine light came on and the engine shut off. I tried to restart it, and it cranked but wouldn't fire up. Checked F37, and it was blown. And, it re-blows whenever I try to star the car...I checked pin 3 of X6011, and I get no resistance reading, whereas I get values for each of pins 1, 2, and 4. I disconnected the boost solenoids, and still get no resistance reading on pin 3.
George, do I understand you correctly, that I need to continue to disconnect additional components served by F37 and see if I get a resistance reading? Do I need a new fuse in F37 for such testing?
...I should note that I got the yellow battery light at the time of the failure, and when trying (unsuccessfully) to crank the car afterwards. Additionally, I'm not confident that I'm properly testing resistance at pin 3 because a get a 0 even reading, rather than a number approach zero.

Working backwards (common occurrence for me ;-) what reading do you get when you touch meter probes together -- zero (0)? If so, with NO fuse in F37 fuse socket, when you put ONE probe on Socket #3 of Connector X6011 and the OTHER probe on good chassis ground, and you get SAME ZERO reading (but you get "1" or infinite resistance reading with one of the probes NOT touching a ground or the other probe), then you have a "SHORT" to ground (or continuity to ground), and THAT is what is blowing the fuse when you turn on the ignition.

To properly test for the location of the short, you just test for continuity to chassis ground WITHOUT a fuse in the socket. NO need to waste fuses. Continuity to ground tells you the SAME thing as a blown fuse. ZERO (0) resistance (or nearly so, depending upon the exact setting of your meter) in reference to ground (other probe on chassis ground) means a short-circuit, either power supply wire contacting ground, or a short in one of the components in the circuit powered by F37.

Here is the TIS F37 Circuit for your 2008 335i E93:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...4-fuse/i1ukJnB

As you can see, BOTH Cam Position Sensors are powered by F37, so when it is blown, those sensors cannot signal Cam Position to the DME, so the DME CANNOT time ignition or pulse injectors, hence NO ignition or Injection, and crank but NO fire.

I have NOT ever even opened my E-box, so I am just following the circuit diagram. I presume the Red/White wire from the Fuse Box goes into one side of Socket #3 of Connector X6011, and the Orange wire that supplies power to the components is connected to the "other side" of Socket #3 of X6011?

However those two wires are joined at X6011, I would begin by removing BOTH the Red/White wire AND the Orange wire, from X6011, and testing continuity to ground (resistance in reference to ground) for each of them. I would also test for resistance in reference to ground for socket #3 of X6011 itself, with NEITHER Red/White or Orange wires inserted into the connector.

Please let us know what you find that way, and someone can help with next steps.

George