[MFactory]

And the magic words here are "if ever". Lifting a wheel is seriously over talked, but almost never done in an everyday street car. If your car is an everyday street car, you will not lift your wheel off the ground, plain and simple. You are also forgetting that most modern day cars have electronic traction aids, which a Helical LSD works in conjunction with and not against.

The no-load thing was marketing material spouted by Plate type LSD manufacturers decades ago, before any electronic traction aids existed.

For those who drive a race car, then a Plate type is recommended over a Helical (but not for the perceived "no-load" benefit), but there are a lot of race drivers out there who prefer the feel of a Helical LSD + Left-Foot control, over the feel of a Plate type LSD.

[Cloud9blue]

Yeah, if you are hopping curbs with your street track on the tracks. I can bet your car wont last long. But in icy winter condition, wavetrac might proven to have a very slight edge.

[MFactory]

Modern Day car manufacturers design their road cars for safety (i.e low traction conditions such as ice), not for the track (i.e kerb hopping)

And hence why a Helical LSD is perfect when used in conjunction with electronic traction aids, and doesn't need to rely on friction discs that wear out

So let's see. Wave lock? No use on a street car. Friction plates? No use on a modern day street car with electronic traction aids. So what benefits does that leave you with that you're paying a few hundred dollars more for? brand name? If you are buying on brand name alone, then may as well get the Quaife as they have 50 years on both of us

P.S Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the Wavetrac. It functions as advertised and, for those who are already using it, you do have a very good LSD. However, for those who are still deciding which LSD to go for, they need to be informed exactly what they are spending their hard-earned money on and, in the case of the Wavetrac, features that do not make any real-world (i.e street car) difference.

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

They're both within a hundred bucks of each other. They both have their pros and cons. Which one would you go with and why? If you look at my signature you'll see my build. I have the stupid welded rear diff so choices are limited to these two. Thanks for any feedback especially first hand.

Really? Mine's bolted.

No issues -- Wavetrac here.

___________________________________

Edit: Missed that you have MT!

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by MFactory

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the Wavetrac. It functions as advertised and, for those who are already using it, you do have a very good LSD. However, for those who are still deciding which LSD to go for, they need to be informed exactly what they are spending their hard-earned money on and, in the case of the Wavetrac, features that do not make any real-world (i.e street car) difference.

Maybe -- maybe not.

Some drive in a sporting manner....

.

[Fundguy1]

Yeah. MT after a specific date are welded. Why BMW went out of their way to change and have a second and different diff on manuals after a few months vs autos I can't imagine. One if those stupid quirks. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

Maybe -- maybe not.

Some drive in a sporting manner....

.

Like kerb hopping? If not, then what else?

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Yeah. MT after a specific date are welded. Why BMW went out of their way to change and have a second and different diff on manuals after a few months vs autos I can't imagine. One if those stupid quirks. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Because they wanted to save a few dollars

[Fundguy1]

I sometimes 4 wheel drift but haven't raised a tire yet. Maybe after suspension mods.

[MFactory]

Our LSD in action (for an Audi S4 though):

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by MFactory

Like kerb hopping? If not, then what else?

Bumpy road especially in corners. Is there a Wavetrac advantage? Dunno! Have no comparison vehicle.

But one thing's fer sure: Huge improvement at all speeds, and here I'm talking just moseying through a parking lot it's clearly felt; night 'n' day in twisties. Solved bumpy pavement issues.

I bought price and availability, Wavetrac being a California company; Quaife being English. Wavetrac also had a handy BMW welded/bolted diff cross reference table.

[MFactory]

You won't regret your choice. The Wavetrac is a good LSD

[Techevo]

For you US guys, I really don't see the point in fitting a Quaife over a Wavetrac, the Wavetrac has all the benefits of the Quaife and will still work in a no load situation, as well as being manufactured in CA.

For Mfactory, are there any differences in helix angle, any mods to increase worm gears to case friction (the wavetrac uses internal carbon pads) and so any improvement in bias ratio compared to the others?

BTW, I'd rather not have to brake to improve traction, I just want un-interrupted traction!

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by Techevo

For you US guys, I really don't see the point in fitting a Quaife over a Wavetrac, the Wavetrac has all the benefits of the Quaife and will still work in a no load situation, as well as being manufactured in CA.

For Mfactory, are there any differences in helix angle, any mods to increase worm gears to case friction (the wavetrac uses internal carbon pads) and so any improvement in bias ratio compared to the others?

BTW, I'd rather not have to brake to improve traction, I just want un-interrupted traction!

The Quaife still works in a no-load situation; if you know how to drive. This is the whole point that I am getting at. In a real-world situation (i.e on the street), there is no advantage that the Wavetrac can offer. A modern day car with traction control + regular Helical LSD is the best you can get; no need for any wave locks or such. If you want your LSD to lock, go buy a Plate type as you'll be much happier.

In a race situation, it's all about driver skill. If you want to be lazy and don't know how to drive, then you can take the easy way out, but you will never be the quickest nor improve your skills above and beyond your "comfort zone", because that is what the Wavetrac is doing; keeping you in your "comfort zone". Left-foot braking is not just above improving traction, but improving your skill and speed around the track. The quickest drivers in the world left-foot brake (i.e knowing how/when to simultaneously use brake & throttle to your advantage).

However, I understand if you just want to be like everyone else and stay in your comfort zone on the track. Again, if this is just for a street car, then there is zero real-world advantage.

I am not here to dissuade people from purchasing the Wavetrac nor the Quaife. Both are really good LSD's and anyone who uses them would be more than happy with them.

However, what I am here to do is give you guys an explanation of the options, rather than be fooled by marketing bullshit that does not apply in todays day and age with electronic traction aids. If you drive a 20 year old FWD VW Golf (i.e what the Wavetracs were designed for), ok, I understand. Buy you guys don't, so don't be fooled by hype.

If you are after Brand Name/History, then there is only one choice: Quaife. They have 50 years on both MFactory & Wavetrac

If you want "Made in USA", then there is only once choice: Wavetrac. However, there is no advantage to this, other than patriotism.

If you want strength, performance, reliability, the best customer support in this industry AND the absolute best value, then see my 1st post in this thread with our product comparison. There is a reason why we went from 0% market share to over 80% worldwide market share in Honda transmission products, and we are planning on doing the same with BMW and VAG.

P.S Our LSD's have a higher bias ratio that both Quaife and Wavetrac. Their LSD's can transfer maximum 66% torque to the one wheel. Ours can transfer upto 75% torque due to the higher ratio. Friction discs work on paper, but not so well in the real-world, not in a Helical LSD anyway. Again, want to use friction discs? Go buy a Plate type LSD (which we also offer).

[Techevo]

Originally Posted by MFactory

The Quaife still works in a no-load situation; if you know how to drive. This is the whole point that I am getting at. In a real-world situation (i.e on the street), there is no advantage that the Wavetrac can offer. A modern day car with traction control + regular Helical LSD is the best you can get; no need for any wave locks or such. If you want your LSD to lock, go buy a Plate type as you'll be much happier.

Sorry, I don’t agree.

There is definitely an advantage of a Wavetrac over a Quaife on the street. Even with a slightly modified car with uprated anti-roll bars causing less suspension droop, a wheel can lift on bumpy roads. There are many time on the Lake District roads that I drive, that are super bumpy with tight corners and a high rate of climb where the inside wheel comes off the ground. Also on snow with very little grip, the Wavetrac gives benefits over a pure helical. Saying a pure helical is the best you can get is just not true.

I don’t want to be relying on traction control thanks, that is the reason for fitting an LSD, to improve traction.

I don’t want a plate type LSD on my everyday road car either, and I don’t need one. I’ll leave those types of diff for my race car thanks.

Originally Posted by MFactory

In a race situation, it's all about driver skill. If you want to be lazy and don't know how to drive, then you can take the easy way out, but you will never be the quickest nor improve your skills above and beyond your "comfort zone", because that is what the Wavetrac is doing; keeping you in your "comfort zone". Left-foot braking is not just above improving traction, but improving your skill and speed around the track. The quickest drivers in the world left-foot brake (i.e knowing how/when to simultaneously use brake & throttle to your advantage).

However, I understand if you just want to be like everyone else and stay in your comfort zone on the track. Again, if this is just for a street car, then there is zero real-world advantage.

Nice selling technique, use underhand insults and arrogance. I’m not ‘racing’ my BMW E91 diesel. I want a quiet LSD that is fit and forget which still works in a no load situation. Why on earth would I fit a pure helical when a Wavetrac works better? What, so I can left foot brake on the road when I loose traction to make me think I’m a racing god!! What planet are you on.

In my race car, when I left foot brake, it’s not because of loss of traction (Cusco 10 plate LSD’s fitted front and rear), it’s for weight transfer on corner entry to help turn in, and sometimes to trim exit speed. If I had to left foot brake because of a loss of traction, I would be losing time, and would look to change the set-up to improve the cause, loss of traction.

Originally Posted by MFactory

I am not here to dissuade people from purchasing the Wavetrac nor the Quaife. Both are really good LSD's and anyone who uses them would be more than happy with them.

However, what I am here to do is give you guys an explanation of the options, rather than be fooled by marketing bullshit that does not apply in todays day and age with electronic traction aids. If you drive a 20 year old FWD VW Golf (i.e what the Wavetracs were designed for), ok, I understand. Buy you guys don't, so don't be fooled by hype.

If you are after Brand Name/History, then there is only one choice: Quaife. They have 50 years on both MFactory & Wavetrac

If you want "Made in USA", then there is only once choice: Wavetrac. However, there is no advantage to this, other than patriotism. .

No advantage apart from they work in all situations, and the pure helical doesn’t. You seem to have a problem with hard facts.

So on one hand you’re talking about left foot braking and racing on track, then on the other you’re talking about electronic aids helping traction. My race car sure doesn’t have any electronic aids, and would be hopeless with a pure helical diff fitted.

I’m not fooled by marketing bullshit thanks. I’ve been building/setting-up transmissions for years, now mainly for Evo’s and R35 GTR’s and have my built transmissions/diffs in some of the fastest Evo’s in the world.

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by Techevo

Sorry, I don’t agree.

There is definitely an advantage of a Wavetrac over a Quaife on the street. Even with a slightly modified car with uprated anti-roll bars causing less suspension droop, a wheel can lift on bumpy roads. There are many time on the Lake District roads that I drive, that are super bumpy with tight corners and a high rate of climb where the inside wheel comes off the ground. Also on snow with very little grip, the Wavetrac gives benefits over a pure helical. Saying a pure helical is the best you can get is just not true.

I don’t want to be relying on traction control thanks, that is the reason for fitting an LSD, to improve traction.

I don’t want a plate type LSD on my everyday road car either, and I don’t need one. I’ll leave those types of diff for my race car thanks.



Nice selling technique, use underhand insults and arrogance. I’m not ‘racing’ my BMW E91 diesel. I want a quiet LSD that is fit and forget which still works in a no load situation. Why on earth would I fit a pure helical when a Wavetrac works better? What, so I can left foot brake on the road when I loose traction to make me think I’m a racing god!! What planet are you on.

In my race car, when I left foot brake, it’s not because of loss of traction (Cusco 10 plate LSD’s fitted front and rear), it’s for weight transfer on corner entry to help turn in, and sometimes to trim exit speed. If I had to left foot brake because of a loss of traction, I would be losing time, and would look to change the set-up to improve the cause, loss of traction.



No advantage apart from they work in all situations, and the pure helical doesn’t. You seem to have a problem with hard facts.

So on one hand you’re talking about left foot braking and racing on track, then on the other you’re talking about electronic aids helping traction. My race car sure doesn’t have any electronic aids, and would be hopeless with a pure helical diff fitted.

I’m not fooled by marketing bullshit thanks. I’ve been building/setting-up transmissions for years, now mainly for Evo’s and R35 GTR’s and have my built transmissions/diffs in some of the fastest Evo’s in the world.

I'm on planet earth, and you completely misunderstood/misinterpreted the meaning of everything that I said. If you weren't "fooled" then that wouldn't be the case; I'll rest my case

I'm not insulting you or trying to be arrogant. You may have been setting up transmission for years now, and built transmissions/diffs for some of the fastest EVO's in the world (now who's being arrogant?), but have you sold over 30,000 LSD's? Have you been in direct contact with over 30,000 first-hand customers who use those LSD's? Did you help Wavetrac fix their design when they couldn't get it right? I can answer yes to all of that.

I may not be a race car driver, but I am an engineer that designs and manufactures LSD's for a living, working directly with OEM's worldwide (I don't just design/manufacture MFactory LSD's). I don't need to race on the track, nor drive fast on the street. Why? Because I have 30,000+ people that do it for me. Now, would you listen to someone with experience with 30,000+ users worldwide, or someone from the UK who specialises with AWD cars?

Just because "You" demand the icing on the cake (again, no offence intended. We do have customers just like you), it does not mean the other 90% of drivers do and why should they have to pay for it when there are significant advantages with other brands?

If the OP is one of those 10%, then so be it. I have nothing to prove, other than offer a real-world comparison.

Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree, as this is now starting to get off-topic.

[Techevo]

Originally Posted by MFactory

I'm on planet earth, and you completely misunderstood/misinterpreted the meaning of everything that I said. If you weren't "fooled" then that wouldn't be the case; I'll rest my case

Utter rubbish.

Originally Posted by MFactory

I'm not insulting you or trying to be arrogant.

I’m afraid you were.

Originally Posted by MFactory

You may have been setting up transmission for years now, and built transmissions/diffs for some of the fastest EVO's in the world (now who's being arrogant?)

You seem to have a problem with factual statements.

Originally Posted by MFactory

but have you sold over 30,000 LSD's? Have you been in direct contact with over 30,000 first-hand customers who use those LSD's? Did you help Wavetrac fix their design when they couldn't get it right? I can answer yes to all of that.

What has all that got to do with the fact that a Wavetrac works better than a pure helical?

Originally Posted by MFactory

I may not be a race car driver, but I am an engineer that designs and manufactures LSD's for a living, working directly with OEM's worldwide (I don't just design/manufacture MFactory LSD's). I don't need to race on the track, nor drive fast on the street. Why? Because I have 30,000+ people that do it for me. Now, would you listen to someone with experience with 30,000+ users worldwide, or someone from the UK who specialises with AWD cars?

AWD, FWD, RWD, it makes no difference to the laws of physics or how an LSD works. Nor does where the LSD is located, USA or UK.

The difference is, I’m not trying to sell something.

[MFactory]

sigh... again, agree to disagree.

I may be a vendor on this site, yes, but that does not stop me from giving out product comparisons when it is asked for. I contributed to this thread exactly how the OP asked. Have you? No, you just want to be a keyboard warrior.

If someone is in the 10%, so be it. I'm not the one to change their mind. I only offer advice, not try to change peoples minds.

Now either contribute to this thread as intended, or leave it be. I don't have the time nor inclination to continue arguing with you over less than 10% of users (I have more important things to do, like give real world advice to the other 90%)

[pobudz]

I went MFactory and have not looked back. Excellent product and customer service.

[Techevo]

Originally Posted by MFactory

sigh... again, agree to disagree.

I may be a vendor on this site, yes, but that does not stop me from giving out product comparisons when it is asked for. I contributed to this thread exactly how the OP asked. Have you? No, you just want to be a keyboard warrior.

If someone is in the 10%, so be it. I'm not the one to change their mind. I only offer advice, not try to change peoples minds.

Now either contribute to this thread as intended, or leave it be. I don't have the time nor inclination to continue arguing with you over less than 10% of users (I have more important things to do, like give real world advice to the other 90%)

The OP asked Wavetrac or helical.

I'm stating facts regarding the OP's question, how is that not contributing? Your advise is biased because it's aimed towards a product you are selling.

The Wavetrac has benefits over a pure helical, but a pure helical has no advantage over a Wavetrac.

Also the Wavetrac is extremely durable, I've fitted these in quite a few 1000hp + drag cars, and they've been 100% reliable.

If stating those things makes me a 'keyboard warrior' in your eyes, then so be it.

[MFactory]

Ermm, no, the OP asked about Wavetrac or MFactory (see the title of the thread), and there are plenty of real-world advantages to be had with the MFactory over the Wavetrac.

If designing and manufacturing LSD's for a living (Helical and Plate, MFactory and other brands) and having direct feedback from 30,000+ customers makes me bias, then so be it. Rather that than a keyboard warrior

[Techevo]

Originally Posted by MFactory

Ermm, no, the OP asked about Wavetrac or MFactory (see the title of the thread), and there are plenty of real-world advantages to be had with the MFactory over the Wavetrac.

If designing and manufacturing LSD's for a living (Helical and Plate, MFactory and other brands) and having direct feedback from 30,000+ customers makes me bias, then so be it. Rather that than a keyboard warrior

So, I take it being a highly qualified engineer for over 30 years, and so having a qualified and informed opinion about differentials makes me a keyboard warrior?

Right.

In my real world on bumpy, cambered roads, running uprated anti-roll bars, a Wavetrac works in ALL situations, where as a pure helical, (unless the Mfactory is more than a pure helical?) doesn't work in all situations.

So, please tell me what traction advantages your diff gives over a Wavetrac in the real world.