[Chappers 71]

If you wanna go track dayin regularly buy yourself an old 330 e46, strip it out & put some semi slicks on it, I did a few track days in my old e36 328i during the last year I had it as I wasn't bothered if I broke it & it was excellent fun

[ed330D]

Originally Posted by stevesingo

... Cool down lap without using the brakes and stopping the car on the park brake when back to the pits. If they start fading a proper pad (Not EBC) such as Carbone Lorraine CL5+, Ferrodo DS2500, Pagid 4-4, should be fine for most use.

++ The cooling down lap etc should avoid the warping issue.

Stock brakes will probably fade - it depends on use. Ferrodo DS2500 are excellent (and expensive) and should prevent fade. I've no experience of the other pads.

[ChawenHalo]

Originally Posted by david in germany

BMW brakes are not poor.
Slotted and drilled reduce surface area and more surface area equals more friction and better stopping.
Yes, hot spots are where the rotors have heated up and become harder in certain areas and cause the pads to skip across the rotor (crazy vibrations). I have a picture of a pair of rotors I smoked on mine after chasing an e60 m5. Had to slow REALLY hard to make my autobahn exit. I will see if I can find one of the pics.

+1. I've ran an upgraded OEM set up (Goodridge, 5.1 DOT and Pagid) for 6 years and never had a problem on track (very noisy on road though but I had endurance pads). However bear in mind that M cars run fully ventilated disks which help avoid hot spots or general cooking of the disks (they can heat to over 600C apparently). My guess is that your disks are not up to the job and the pad disk combo is no good. Get some decent OEM stuff.

Do bear in mind though that these are heavy cars and that they road cars, not track cars. If you want to use it a lot on track, even with upgraded disks etc, the callipers will bend under stress eventually. AP racing is the business when it comes to BBK (big brake kit) for beemers but you're looking atvhe thick end of €5k.

There is a reason why regular track goers run with Lotus and Caterhams) apart from the fact they are better to learn on on and perform in many respects far better, they are also a lot cheaper to run on track. BMW are awful money pits on track.

Edit: Forgot to add DO NOT apply your handbrake after each session, leave it in gear and add block of wood under a wheel if necessary. You disk will be very hot and you'll boil fluid, leave pad deposit on the disk (sometimes the calliper sticks) melt the rubber hoses.

And yes "warped disks" are bloody star trek nonsense. Never ever heard or experienced in track days with anyone I know.

[ChawenHalo]

Originally Posted by ed330D

++ The cooling down lap etc should avoid the warping issue.

Stock brakes will probably fade - it depends on use. Ferrodo DS2500 are excellent (and expensive) and should prevent fade. I've no experience of the other pads.

What is it with France's love affair with Ferrodo?! They're fu€!ing awful (but cheap). Delages Sport fitted these on my car and I had a long argument with Hughes and told him to take them off. These DS2500 are ancient compound, they actually do make lots of noise and are very hard to modulate (experienced this in a friends RS4! and my car completely by accident but both agreed).

Anyway nice to see a fellow froggy on this UK forum

[ChawenHalo]

Originally Posted by david in germany

These are hot spots.

Smookin' stop that must have been! Been there on my 2nd track day ever with my own car and just with the smell you know its going to be expensive!

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by ChawenHalo

Smookin' stop that must have been! Been there on my 2nd track day ever with my own car and just with the smell you know its going to be expensive!

Speedo was buried at 160mph from about 5 miles back, chasing an German spec e60 M5 and I was running up right at redline. My exit came up really fast. car did well though. Took the m5 about 3 miles to pull about 300 yards on me. The shaky brakes bothered me more than the smell.

[AD18]

Originally Posted by ChawenHalo

+1. I've ran an upgraded OEM set up (Goodridge, 5.1 DOT and Pagid) for 6 years and never had a problem on track (very noisy on road though but I had endurance pads). However bear in mind that M cars run fully ventilated disks which help avoid hot spots or general cooking of the disks (they can heat to over 600C apparently). My guess is that your disks are not up to the job and the pad disk combo is no good. Get some decent OEM stuff.

Do bear in mind though that these are heavy cars and that they road cars, not track cars. If you want to use it a lot on track, even with upgraded disks etc, the callipers will bend under stress eventually. AP racing is the business when it comes to BBK (big brake kit) for beemers but you're looking atvhe thick end of €5k.

There is a reason why regular track goers run with Lotus and Caterhams) apart from the fact they are better to learn on on and perform in many respects far better, they are also a lot cheaper to run on track. BMW are awful money pits on track.

Edit: Forgot to add DO NOT apply your handbrake after each session, leave it in gear and add block of wood under a wheel if necessary. You disk will be very hot and you'll boil fluid, leave pad deposit on the disk (sometimes the calliper sticks) melt the rubber hoses.

And yes "warped disks" are bloody star trek nonsense. Never ever heard or experienced in track days with anyone I know.

Thanks, I will probably do one more track day with the current set up and see if I experience the same problems. Weird thing is that during my warm up laps I could almost feel that the discs weren't smooth through the pedal, as if they were already vibrating. Very strange. Anyway, I have a few friends who run pagid and have heard positive things however a dedicated cheap track car is now also in my mind as a better way to do things. Have to say I didn't know DS2500's were a very old compound!

[Chappers 71]

Originally Posted by AD18

Thanks, I will probably do one more track day with the current set up and see if I experience the same problems. Weird thing is that during my warm up laps I could almost feel that the discs weren't smooth through the pedal, as if they were already vibrating. Very strange. Anyway, I have a few friends who run pagid and have heard positive things however a dedicated cheap track car is now also in my mind as a better way to do things. Have to say I didn't know DS2500's were a very old compound!

What's the condition of the slider pins?

[AD18]

Originally Posted by Chappers 71

What's the condition of the slider pins?

Hmm I'd have to look up how to check this to be honest. What would be the link if they were worn?

[bfleming]

I'll put my hat in the ring here... I had a 156 JTD with 200bhp, and used Red Dot Racing grooved discs & OEM pads. A fantastic set up. I'm not sure of Red Dot are still trading, and I'm not sure who made their discs, but that was probably the best set-up I've had.
I used to do track days in my E46 330i, great fun as it was a debadged touring in fine fettle, so used to upset a lot of people - despite being a big heavy lump of a car! When it came to brakes, my set up was EBC discs, yellowstuff pads, goodridge hoses, ATE superblue fluid. The disc judder when hot was horrendous, to the point where they had to go after one track day. I have never touched EBC stuff since, nor will I ever again. I replaced those discs with Brembo's, and they were great.
I'm going to have to do the brakes on my current E90 in the next few months, and whilst I've used Pagid gear for my road cars for the last few years, I'm not sure if they're up to track use.
Recommendations for a road car with some occasional track use?

[AD18]

Originally Posted by bfleming

I'll put my hat in the ring here... I had a 156 JTD with 200bhp, and used Red Dot Racing grooved discs & OEM pads. A fantastic set up. I'm not sure of Red Dot are still trading, and I'm not sure who made their discs, but that was probably the best set-up I've had.
I used to do track days in my E46 330i, great fun as it was a debadged touring in fine fettle, so used to upset a lot of people - despite being a big heavy lump of a car! When it came to brakes, my set up was EBC discs, yellowstuff pads, goodridge hoses, ATE superblue fluid. The disc judder when hot was horrendous, to the point where they had to go after one track day. I have never touched EBC stuff since, nor will I ever again. I replaced those discs with Brembo's, and they were great.
I'm going to have to do the brakes on my current E90 in the next few months, and whilst I've used Pagid gear for my road cars for the last few years, I'm not sure if they're up to track use.
Recommendations for a road car with some occasional track use?

Thanks, this is very useful actually. Seems to be that yellowstuff isn't all that good! It seems to tie in with my experience that after 3 laps the judder was so bad it was obvious that something wasn't right. I have the potential to go again this weekend so may give it one last shot and if its still bad then time to ditch them and switch to something else. I'm amazed that the standard pads had no issues now apart from not withstanding the heat.
I think a dedicated track car still may be the way forward though.

[stevesingo]

On my E30 M3, which see a little track use, but mainly used on the road, I'm using CL Brakes (Carbon Lorraine) RC5+ pads.

http://www.clbraking.co.uk/compounds

Pros:

Quiet-no squealing
Clean- Compared to Ferodos I used before, the CL RC5+ produce less than half the dust.
Good bite from cold
No fade on track
Firm pedal.

Cons
Expensive (ish) For an E90 £120+VAT Fr and £123+VAT Rear
Noisy- they tend to rattle in my caliper (AP Racing) a little, but I don't have anti rattle springs, so this shouldn't be a problem on a road car.

[AD18]

Originally Posted by stevesingo

On my E30 M3, which see a little track use, but mainly used on the road, I'm using CL Brakes (Carbon Lorraine) RC5+ pads.

http://www.clbraking.co.uk/compounds

Pros:

Quiet-no squealing
Clean- Compared to Ferodos I used before, the CL RC5+ produce less than half the dust.
Good bite from cold
No fade on track
Firm pedal.

Cons
Expensive (ish) For an E90 £120+VAT Fr and £123+VAT Rear
Noisy- they tend to rattle in my caliper (AP Racing) a little, but I don't have anti rattle springs, so this shouldn't be a problem on a road car.

Sounds like it ticks all the boxes for me, I'll check them out.

[AD18]

I'm going back for another trackday tomorrow to have another go. Will report back if the brakes still judder a lot. If so, I'll be saying goodbye to EBC and going for something else!

[Chappers 71]

Originally Posted by AD18

I'm going back for another trackday tomorrow to have another go. Will report back if the brakes still judder a lot. If so, I'll be saying goodbye to EBC and going for something else!

Did you have a look at your slider pins? The 335i has 'floating' callipers, they slide on the two pins that hold the calipers in place. The pins can get dirty & sticky. Not saying that's your issue but cleaning or changing the pins next time your doing your pads wouldn't do any harm.

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by Chappers 71

Did you have a look at your slider pins? The 335i has 'floating' callipers so they slide on the two pins that hold the calipers in place. The pins can get dirty & sticky. Not saying that's your issue but cleaning or changing the pins next time your doing your pads wouldn't do any harm.

I always hit mine with an SOS pad prior to reinstalling.

[AD18]

Originally Posted by Chappers 71

Did you have a look at your slider pins? The 335i has 'floating' callipers, they slide on the two pins that hold the calipers in place. The pins can get dirty & sticky. Not saying that's your issue but cleaning or changing the pins next time your doing your pads wouldn't do any harm.

Not yet but its on the list of things to check after tomorrow!

[AD18]

Was back at Oulton Park again yesterday, track was dry which was great, it allowed me to really push a lot more through the corners. Brakes once again were a let down, they last max 2 laps.

Differences from last time:
I built up the temps more gradually and carefully when initially going out for each session then pushed on. First 'faster' lap brakes seemed ok, on the second the judder came back in a big way. I took a little more notice this time and could visibly see the steering wheel shaking in my hands coming up to braking points - not great.
Did a good cool down lap, no handbrake on when at standstill but I knew this anyway.

On the next session I repeated and got same results. One ok lap and then judder from then on. I could reduce the judder by doing a slow lap and then going faster again. But I could only get maybe 2-3 corners of braking before the judder came again.

Pic of brakes after a session attached, excuse the caked on brake dust. Nothing to me looks abnormal. The visible lines are just brake pad deposits?

Time for a new set up I think.

[Chappers 71]

Pop it into a STS or other tyre place for a free brake test, they will tell you if your brakes are out of balance. I had the shuddering issue a while back, turned out the front passenger side was out of ballance. I fitted a pair of new front discs & all's been fine since, granted I don't regularly do track days, although I did six laps at Lydd using red stuff pads with no issues.

If you do change the pads/discs maybe buy a new set slider pins, just don't grease them

[hazkirby]

So I'm going out again soon with the same yellowstuffs as last time, but with drilled and grooved discs.

If I still get vibration then no doubt it's the pads, however contrary to popular belief I do believe the discs warp or have some sort of malfunction under strain, particular cheaper sets.

[AD18]

Originally Posted by hazkirby

So I'm going out again soon with the same yellowstuffs as last time, but with drilled and grooved discs.

If I still get vibration then no doubt it's the pads, however contrary to popular belief I do believe the discs warp or have some sort of malfunction under strain, particular cheaper sets.

If you can report back with how you find them then that will be very useful and could potentially put these pads to bed if you also experience the same. When are you heading off to track?

[AD18]

On the subject of pad deposits, how exactly does a cool down lap stop pad deposits on the discs? Surely during your hot laps, this is when pad material will be deposited. You do a cool down lap, enter the pits and don't apply the handbrake, this to me is most critical step for avoiding pad deposits.
Unless I'm misunderstanding I'm not seeing what this cool down lap really does.