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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N57 / M57 Turbo Diesel Discussions - 335d > Short cranks no start after driving normally.



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      12-03-2018, 11:38 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Mik325tds View Post
Okay, I'm convinced now that the glow plug module / glow plugs is not your problem. Sorry. Did you plug the module back in when you got your LIN bus fault? Sometimes the glow plug module itself would cause the LIN bus fault when it goes bad.
That seems to be the most common fault for the lin bus code. I did plug it back in. Because arcing was not occurring with it on.

I thought the starter seems like a more likely culprit now. There is not enough power and sometimes does not turn after a long delay.
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      12-03-2018, 04:38 PM   #68
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The starter did look a bit weak on your test. Or maybe the battery was low. But a bad starter wouldn't explain why your car died while it was running.

During your tests with the injector 1 connected that made the arcing sound - did you try other injectors? Did they all start the arcing sound?
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      12-03-2018, 09:45 PM   #69
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The starter did look a bit weak on your test. Or maybe the battery was low. But a bad starter wouldn't explain why your car died while it was running.

During your tests with the injector 1 connected that made the arcing sound - did you try other injectors? Did they all start the arcing sound?
I think the starter was a by product of what ever else was was originally bad to begin with, I just happened to be cranking the car for the last 3 weeks while diagnosing this issue, might have been on it's way out.

I did not try other injectors that one crackled the most so I stuck with that one.

I should go back and check.

Had the Starter re manufactured locally since it was expedient.



Had it run after and it's a night and day difference. Tech guy said there was nothing terminally wrong with the starter itself other than some worn bushings but Testing the selenoid did prove it was only activating half the time.

Installed the starter and car still makes arcing sound. It does not even attempt to crank anymore. I wonder if it's in some sort of safe mode and it's just waking up now from having battery disconnected.

Clearing codes leaves one code that is unable to be cleared for transmission comunication.



then upon a crank attempt all of these come back.




Well not sure where to go from here.

A bad glow plug module suposedly would cause bad comunication to transmission. since it's part of LIN bus.

at the same time arcing was happening with the glow plug module unpluged.

Not sure where to go from here. other than throw a glow plug module and see what happens. maybe continue to listen to the arcing sound and pin point the location better.
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      12-04-2018, 01:37 PM   #70
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My glow plug module threw a LIN bus fault, but the car still ran fine with it active. You could swap the X5 one over just to rule it out however.

I had many DSC / IBS / Trans faults while trying to start when I had a bad DDE program by my tuner, I flashed the DDE back to stock and the car fired up. This could be an option as well, however the DDE may need to be swapped as your tune was working for some time, which means some corruption would have to have occurred.

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To rule out your tune causing all this it could be worth a try to reflash your DDE with ISTA-P or WinKFP, but that would mean sending the DDE out for tuning again afterwards.
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      12-04-2018, 02:02 PM   #71
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Dumb question but are you missing an engine ground somewhere to chassis?
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      12-04-2018, 04:28 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Owen81 View Post
My glow plug module threw a LIN bus fault, but the car still ran fine with it active. You could swap the X5 one over just to rule it out however.

I had many DSC / IBS / Trans faults while trying to start when I had a bad DDE program by my tuner, I flashed the DDE back to stock and the car fired up. This could be an option as well, however the DDE may need to be swapped as your tune was working for some time, which means some corruption would have to have occurred.
Im gonna install a new one when it gets here next week.

This could be it, ive unplugged the battery so many times something could be out of whack.



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Dumb question but are you missing an engine ground somewhere to chassis?
i always thought there is just one ground strap on the driver side?


I am getting ground at the starter cable from the ECU. Can someone please explain if this is normal? I always thought the starter gets a + constant and a + temporay signal upon start.

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      12-04-2018, 05:33 PM   #73
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The connection that goes to the starter. Single wire?
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      12-04-2018, 05:57 PM   #74
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I'm with Owen81, go in direction of DDE. Swap in from your X5 and see if it also arcs. If not, code it to your car and do a CAS allignment and try to start. I'm not sure if that is all that needs to be done though. Has anyone ever tried swapping in a different DDE?
Otherwise reflashing your DDE would also be worthwhile.
As for the EGS fault, I don't think it has LIN. As far as I know it only is on CAN. Did you seat the connectors correctly on your DDE?
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      12-04-2018, 06:03 PM   #75
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The dde womt work becsuse of vin in a different vehicle.
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      12-04-2018, 06:23 PM   #76
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The connection that goes to the starter. Single wire?


This is the cable from the computer that tells the starter it's time to go, every time I touch it to the 12v cable it makes a light show.

it's showing no resistance to ground.

why would the computer send ground to start the starter that is already grounded trough transmission.


Ive been working in the cold too long my brain if fried/frozen

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      12-04-2018, 06:32 PM   #77
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The dde womt work becsuse of vin in a different vehicle.
Can't you just write a different VIN with NCSexpert or WinKFP?
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      12-04-2018, 06:49 PM   #78
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I am getting ground at the starter cable from the ECU. Can someone please explain if this is normal? I always thought the starter gets a + constant and a + temporay signal upon start.
I just measured mine. Yep, 0.4 Ohms to GND on the starter pole. I didn't disconnect from the starter though so we might be measuring the resistance of the relay coil.
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      12-04-2018, 07:36 PM   #79
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Not sure how the BMW runs the starter but this is how most starters worked, like the one I had on my VW TDI:

The solenoid on the side has a connection to the starter brushes. The other side is the 12v feed (heavy wire).

The coil of the solenoid switch gets power from the starter relay. In most cases its giving it +12v when the starter relay kicks in. (you might see it grounded- if they designed it to ground this wire when off on the relay with a 2 pole???)
Some use a 2 pin connector that feeds GND and + to that solenoid coil.

So, when the coil is activated, it connects the heavy 12v feed to the starter.

Not sure if what you found is normal or not...it's a bit confusing to follow.
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      12-04-2018, 11:52 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Mik325tds View Post
I just measured mine. Yep, 0.4 Ohms to GND on the starter pole. I didn't disconnect from the starter though so we might be measuring the resistance of the relay coil.

Thanks for checking that. Starter Rebuilder guy told me the solenoid has conductivity from the activating port to the body of the starter. So your readings are correct. My readings where for the harness disconnected at both ends as well as all sensors. So basically just testing weather the pure wire is shorted to ground.

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Not sure how the BMW runs the starter but this is how most starters worked, like the one I had on my VW TDI:........
I just verified it's one wire that tells the starter to wake up and another one that provides the juice constantly provided by battery and alternator.


I went to home depot and bought a pulse meter. (pretty cool device!)



I plugged the transmitter device at the starter wire end on the harness side and connected the other end at the ecu on the harness side disconnected from ecu.

it sends a pulse that is recognized by the receiver. essentially turns the entire cable into an antenna.

I then used the 2nd device to listen for voltage loss throughout. It's surprisingly accurate especially with headphones on.

My findings where that there where multiple shorts to ground caused by oil build up at connector endings:

Connector under ASV was soaked. Pulse meter confirmed as I got closer to the end of the plug voltage was lost. After cleaning voltage came back

The harness under the Glow plug module was also swimming in oil in multiple spots. Pulse meter lost signal in those spots.

Unfortunately the plastic wire shielding creates a perfect wet suit for the cables to swin in constantly and never lets it escape.

The beauty of this device is that I can chase intermittent faults, because as I wiggle cables the sound signal changes at the end of the cable. A solid continuous cable should have no sound variance when all devices are disconnected.

when I was done cleaning the harness, the entire harness disconnected at both ends read Open loop to ground. As it should (before it was 0.9 ohms )


As confirmation that I did not just spend 4 hours playing with a toy The following things are finally working for the first time after verification trough ISTA:

Pressure sensor (old one, I,m even getting a few bars of fuel pressure without cranking the engine when fuel pump primes.)
Pressure regulator (old one, actuates properly)
fuel quantity valve (Activates and actuates actively)
Fuel pump is priming as it should when start is pressed.

All of these are things attached to the same harness, including the camshaft and crankshaft sensor.

Car still will not crank (I cleared cas starter lock)

I presume it's possible there are additional shorts in the system (Such as the mechatronic sleeve connector as recommended by ISTA) or possibily cas is de synchronised as suggested above.

After a few hours clearing codes over and over I was left with the following persistent codes.



ignore crankcase ventialtion code, it's disconnected for now.


The sneaky thing about these oil shorts is that they are not going to blow any fuses, it's not a complete short.

Im sold on this pulse meter.
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      12-05-2018, 05:32 PM   #81
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Good progress! I never thought that Oil can shorten connections. Must have a lot of carbon in there...
All of these messages belong to the EGS. Measure your CAN lines resistance between CAN H and CAN L and each one to ground and to Vbat. Should be 60 to 120 Ohm between and high resistance to GND and Vbat.
Double check your connections on your DDE. Sometimes the look seated but aren't. Fully open the locks and only start turning them closed when they are started to seat.You should feel them pulling the connector down.
Also check fuses for EGS.
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      12-06-2018, 06:24 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkstar9 View Post

I went to home depot and bought a pulse meter. (pretty cool device!)



I plugged the transmitter device at the starter wire end on the harness side and connected the other end at the ecu on the harness side disconnected from ecu.

it sends a pulse that is recognized by the receiver. essentially turns the entire cable into an antenna.
What a cool device by the way. I didn't know something like this existed! I guess one never starts learning. Especially on this forum
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      Yesterday, 08:59 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds View Post
Good progress! I never thought that Oil can shorten connections. Must have a lot of carbon in there...
I think it's a combination of oil and degreaser and water build up, I had been working with my hood open outdoors and it was snowing and raining. I also sprayed degreaser directly above the frm area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds View Post
All of these messages belong to the EGS. Measure your CAN lines resistance between CAN H and CAN L and each one to ground and to Vbat. Should be 60 to 120 Ohm between and high resistance to GND and Vbat.
so how would I check these connections, would I have to unplug all components, or is this a test i would do as it sits wit things connected.

where would I take these readings?

the problem i am having now is that new tis wiring diagrams do not match my car.

for example this connector where the can h can l cable should be is this one:



Bit at the ecu I do not have any such connector.



connector is x2412

This is been happening for a long time, color codes do not match up and connectors do not match up. I put in my vin and Im making sure it's the us version.

also the location of that connector does not appear anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds View Post
Double check your connections on your DDE. Sometimes the look seated but aren't. Fully open the locks and only start turning them closed when they are started to seat.You should feel them pulling the connector down.
Also check fuses for EGS.
This has happened a few times, I was getting "no comunication to DDE" error. I have to stay on top of sitting them correctly for all testing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik325tds View Post
What a cool device by the way. I didn't know something like this existed! I guess one never starts learning. Especially on this forum
Yes so when techs are diagnosing complex things they need to identify wires quickly the tone generator saves a lot of time.

I was reading into this and some large applications have huge pulse generators that are able to test bus lines in ex airplanes sending signals trough hundreds of wires at the same time and able to pin point multiple failures types. most basic one being a short or ground but also things that can affect data transfer speeds.

Always wondered how they did that.


---------

Well car still arcs on acc wake up, injectors are still showing they are not shorted.


Edit:
Got the car to crank again, it was caused by a lose fuse #22 which controls transmission components. Thus all the transmission codes. they are all gone now.

Only code that comes back very sporadically is the one for fuel pressure change over valve.

So I installed the new one from FCP. No change.

Still have no rpm's while cranking.

Something to see is that the pressure sensor is reading fuel pressure intermittently.

it flashes on and off.

video



Still suspect there is a short somewhere. question is where.
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