[rothwem]

I'm thinking that the E46 rack is going to have the same issue that the e90 rack is. I went to real oem and compared the two racks, they're right here in the attachment.

It would be cool if we could use a RHD rack and flip it around, but that might cause other unforseen issues. A RHD rack might be tough to get too.

[tetsuo111]

Yes agreed. Fabrication work appears necessary to retrofit any non xDrive rack.

I'm working with Zionsville BMW. I measured some dimensions on the rack today when the car was on the lift. Discussion to be continued tomorrow.

Looks like at least one picture of a Porsche rack shows the unit attached to the chassis the way a RWD rack would need to attach to ours.

[Shrike360]

Any updates on finding a rack?

[rothwem]

Hey, check out the G35 rack:

The bolt holes are on the correct side of the car, which is a start...

[Cloud9blue]

I dunno what you guys are trying to achieve here. Using a non e90 rack is just asking for trouble considering the steering angle sensor and the need to re-route the hydraulic steering lines.

Get the M3 rack if you must, if not, just leave it stock. Stock RWD racks are fine for daily and track use IMO. Auto-x is a different matter, but these cars aren't really that competitive for auto-x anyway...

[tetsuo111]

Originally Posted by rothwem

Hey, check out the G35 rack:

The bolt holes are on the correct side of the car, which is a start...

Thanks for posting - that rack has the mounting tabs in the same general position as our BMW xDrive platforms. It's good to see that xDrive racks aren't unique. Of course would need to complete due diligence on specs, center to center tab spacing, connections and fittings, but it's a great find to start.

Since a rack swap will impact safety if done improperly, my preference would be to find a solution from the BMW family. This isn't a guarantee that it will work, but I prefer to stack the odds in our favor.

Research to date hasn't revealed a PNP solution for xDrive. If we're open to heroic efforts, then one option is to fabricate a "C"-shape clamp that bolts to the front subframe steering rack tabs, but goes over and around a M3 (or rack of choice) rack. This would clamp the rack to the subframe. While researching I found a picture of a 911 rack, attached in a similar manner (OEM 911 setup). I'll try to locate and post a picture.

At the end of the day, it's dangerous to compromise the integrity of the steering system, regardless of performance benefits. There are no PNP solutions. I remain open minded to moving forward, pending feedback from someone with more experience weighing in about the pros and cons of this "C" clamp fabrication option.

[tetsuo111]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

I dunno what you guys are trying to achieve here. Using a non e90 rack is just asking for trouble considering the steering angle sensor and the need to re-route the hydraulic steering lines.

Get the M3 rack if you must, if not, just leave it stock. Stock RWD racks are fine for daily and track use IMO. Auto-x is a different matter, but these cars aren't really that competitive for auto-x anyway...

Good question - keeps everyone focused. The goal is clear - quicken the steering without compromising safety.

There's nothing new happening here - rack swaps are common on the RWD platforms. Even a casual search returns many successful examples. The only new part is doing this on an AWD platform.

If a c-clamp bracket can be made to work (like on a 911), and the solution is fabricated by an experienced and trusted machinist / technician, and DSC is addressed, than I think this would work.

DSC - in the worst case, if SAS and DSC were ignored, it seems the result would be to raise the threshold before the car automatically takes corrective action, effectively reducing DSC effectiveness. This is horrible, or a non-issue, depending on one's perspective. I did read someplace that it can be programmed, but the source was the Internet.....

[rothwem]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

I dunno what you guys are trying to achieve here. Using a non e90 rack is just asking for trouble considering the steering angle sensor and the need to re-route the hydraulic steering lines.

Get the M3 rack if you must, if not, just leave it stock. Stock RWD racks are fine for daily and track use IMO. Auto-x is a different matter, but these cars aren't really that competitive for auto-x anyway...

Do you have a learning disability? How'd you do on the reading comprehension part of the SATs?

If you had read the damn thread, you would have figured out that the RWD rack doesn't fit and neither does the M3 rack because the tabs are in the wrong place on the xdrive racks.

But I guess reading is hard.

[rothwem]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

If a c-clamp bracket can be made to work (like on a 911), and the solution is fabricated by an experienced and trusted machinist / technician, and DSC is addressed, than I think this would work.

I think the problem you would run into is the hydraulic hardlines--they'd have to be relocated so they aren't pinched by the C-clamp. I also wonder if you'd end up with binding or leakage due to deformation of the rack casing--remember, its a hydraulic cylinder and deforming the cylinder could cause problems.

If you get it to work though, I might be interested in buying a set of the adapters.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by rothwem

Do you have a learning disability? How'd you do on the reading comprehension part of the SATs?

If you had read the damn thread, you would have figured out that the RWD rack doesn't fit and neither does the M3 rack because the tabs are in the wrong place on the xdrive racks.

But I guess reading is hard.

720 on the reading comprehension. Thanks for asking lol. Do you want my GRE scores too?

This thread was going off topic fast with people suggesting all sort of crazy ideas. But as I said, with the hydraulic hardliners and the wheel angle sensors, you can't just throw on any non-e90 without any MAJOR work. And honestly, the gain just isn't worth it on the x drive chassis.

If razor sharp handling is a top priority for you, why did you buy an xdrive car to begin with??? Clearly some of you guys haven't think things through.

[tetsuo111]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

720 on the reading comprehension. Thanks for asking lol. Do you want my GRE scores too?

This thread was going off topic fast with people suggesting all sort of crazy ideas. But as I said, with the hydraulic hardliners and the wheel angle sensors, you can't just throw on any non-e90 without any MAJOR work. And honestly, the gain just isn't worth it on the x drive chassis.

If razor sharp handling is a top priority for you, why did you buy an xdrive car to begin with??? Clearly some of you guys haven't think things through.

Sigh - here we go again....

I won't engage other than to say circumstances change in real-life. The wagon was to replace a Jeep for winter mountain driving. Drove it on the track once, and I was hooked.

If I wanted a razor-sharp handling track-car it would be a Miata, S2000, Lotus, 911, Cayman, GT-350R, or Vette. Sadly, BMW doesn't offer a functional alternative, aside from products that are styled like track cars. Well, maybe one of the 2-series could work...

This idea may be crazy to some, although I don't know why. Look at the projects people do on these forums. Justification is questionable at best, other than from the perspective of creating a ride that's an extension of the owner, rather than having value assessed solely by its utility. Isn't that part of being car people / hot rodders?

OT - I'm from Chicago, learning to drive at a young (supra-legal) age in challenging conditions. My first track day here in the Pacific Northwest was a deluge, with rain coming down in sheets. I had a blast on the track, feeling at-ease driving in low / no traction conditions. It was tons of fun, and I'm hooked.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

Sigh - here we go again....

I won't engage other than to say circumstances change in real-life. The wagon was to replace a Jeep for winter mountain driving. Drove it on the track once, and I was hooked.

If I wanted a razor-sharp handling track-car it would be a Miata, S2000, Lotus, 911, Cayman, GT-350R, or Vette. Sadly, BMW doesn't offer a functional alternative, aside from products that are styled like track cars. Well, maybe one of the 2-series could work...

This idea may be crazy to some, although I don't know why. Look at the projects people do on these forums. Justification is questionable at best, other than from the perspective of creating a ride that's an extension of the owner, rather than having value assessed solely by its utility. Isn't that part of being car people / hot rodders?

OT - I'm from Chicago, learning to drive at a young (supra-legal) age in challenging conditions. My first track day here in the Pacific Northwest was a deluge, with rain coming down in sheets. I had a blast on the track, feeling at-ease driving in low / no traction conditions. It was tons of fun, and I'm hooked.

Well there you go...

Btw, all the cars you named (except for the GT-350R), there needs moderate to extensive mod to perform flawlessly (yes, even the non-GT 911 and standard Corvettes) on track. Good for you for enjoying your days on track, but if you are really serious about the hobby, a different platform will offer much more bangs for your bucks. Judging by your extensive mod list, I would say a front axle BBK is a better way to spend your money than messing around with this.

After all, the fact that a 4000lbs 5 seater family wagon can be driven enjoyably on the track is a testament that BMW hasn't really lost it. So I don't get what you are really complaining about...

As for the guys, who are entertaining this idea and doesn't even drive on the track, seriously, there are better and cheaper suspension mods (bushings, cough cough...) out there for the car than swapping out the steering rack.

[tetsuo111]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Well there you go...

if you are really serious about the hobby, a different platform will offer much more bangs for your bucks.

Interesting - tracking the car, and the car itself, are orthogonal for me. Those topics are like comparing apples and oranges.

The car's only a tool, and then only 20% - 25% of the track experience. I see people on track in Hondas and Ferraris. Their grins are the same. Driving is driving.

The pleasure of improving the car is real, too. We all do it here.

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

After all, the fact that a 4000lbs 5 seater family wagon can be driven enjoyably on the track is a testament that BMW hasn't really lost it.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1212008

[AtlasM]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

If razor sharp handling is a top priority for you, why did you buy an xdrive car to begin with??? Clearly some of you guys haven't think things through.

Me personally, I bought an xdrive car because I wanted 1 car to drive year-round in Madison, WI with extra winter grip. I had a 135is and a Grand Cherokee for winter & utility purposes but really wanted/needed to get back to 1 car.

I've been watching this thread, because while the steering ratio on the xdrive isn't terrible, driving it back to back with the 135is reminds me that it could be much better.

When I bought the car it had Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3s on the stock wheels. Changing to 235/35-19 F and 275/30-19 Kumho PS91 on lighter wheels improved the grip and saved some weight, but the suspension and steering are still too mushy.

I have a bunch of suspension stuff waiting to go on the car (shocks, springs, E36 M3/Z4M bump stops, camber plates, rear shock mounts, sway bars, end links, front tension strut bushings, rear subframe bushings) once the back-ordered sway bars arrive. The Ground Control camber plates I got have a limited amount of caster adjustment but not much. With these new parts plus a somewhat aggressive front alignment, we'll see how much of an improvement that makes.

Since there's (so far) no simple way to quicken the steering ratio, I'll at least be happy with better turn-in response and overall handling balance. But I'd still like to get a quicker ratio, if some kind of reasonable solution presents itself.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by AtlasM

Me personally, I bought an xdrive car because I wanted 1 car to drive year-round in Madison, WI with extra winter grip. I had a 135is and a Grand Cherokee for winter & utility purposes but really wanted/needed to get back to 1 car.

Seriously? You bought the 335xi for the extra grip. 1st is rwd bias 2nd open diffs. Dedicaded winter tires would have been a lot better investment.

[AtlasM]

Originally Posted by feuer

Seriously? You bought the 335xi for the extra grip. 1st is rwd bias 2nd open diffs. Dedicaded winter tires would have been a lot better investment.

Yes, winter tires are good. I've always put winter tires on my cars. The 335xi will get winter tires.

I didn't have winter tires on my 135is because I also had my Jeep with 3 LSDs and severe snow duty rated all-terrain tires. When I decided to sell my Jeep and go back to having 1 car year round, my options were:

A) Keep the 135is and put winter tires on it
B) Buy something else and put winter tires on it

But, winter capability wasn't the only thing I was considering. The 135is was a bit more cramped inside than I liked, and the back seat was pretty much worthless. If I needed to use a back seat, or if I felt like having more room, I'd drive my Jeep. Without the Jeep, I had to consider those things as well.

The 335xi is wider, the front seats are more comfortable, the back seat is at least usable, and with winter tires on both cars, the 335xi will out-grip the 135is. So I got the 335xi.

I still prefer the steering ratio and lighter weight of the 135is, but the 335xi offers the other things I wanted. It's a tradeoff. That doesn't mean it's not worth trying to improve the steering of the 335xi.

[Cloud9blue]

The lack of logical reasoning in the last few posts is appalling...

[feuer]

Originally Posted by AtlasM

The 335xi is wider, the front seats are more comfortable, the back seat is at least usable, and with winter tires on both cars, the 335xi will out-grip the 135is. So I got the 335xi.
I still prefer the steering ratio and lighter weight of the 135is, but the 335xi offers the other things I wanted. It's a tradeoff. That doesn't mean it's not worth trying to improve the steering of the 335xi.

Oh wow! Fronts are the same btw. I can appreciate your efforts to justify your 335xi purchase but nothing really sticks firmly, especially the improvment of its steering wih rack swap in particular. Regardless that I have the access to pull this off there are zero to none chances that I would entertain the idea if 335xi was mine. Like cloud9blue already told you: the money would be better spend elsewhere.

[AtlasM]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

The lack of logical reasoning in the last few posts is appalling...

Originally Posted by feuer

Oh wow! Fronts are the same btw. I can appreciate your efforts to justify your 335xi purchase but nothing really sticks firmly, especially the improvment of its steering wih rack swap in particular. Regardless that I have the access to pull this off there are zero to none chances that I would entertain the idea if 335xi was mine. Like cloud9blue already told you: the money would be better spend elsewhere.

I don't think either of you are following me here. I'm really not trying to disagree with either of you.

I totally understand that as of yet, nobody has identified a practical way to replace the xdrive steering rack. There's no other direct-fit steering rack and there would have to be some kind of reprogramming of steering angle sensor and stability control. It would take a lot of effort. It would cost a lot. It is not simple.

I bought the 335xi knowing full well it had the slower steering ratio and soft suspension. It had other attributes that I wanted, and I was willing to replace the suspension, and live with the steering.

Replacing the steering rack on my 335xi isn't even remotely close to a priority for me. Nothing in this thread has changed me to suddenly want a new steering rack. I'm just following along out of curiosity if someone happens to come up with a solution. That's it.

[tetsuo111]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

The lack of logical reasoning in the last few posts is appalling...

...says the guy handing out track car wisdom, while driving a 335i AT.

Give it a break. You made your point. We differ in priorities. Let it go now. It's only a hobby.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

...says the guy handing out track car wisdom, while driving a 335i AT.

Give it a break. You made your point. We differ in priorities. Let it go now. It's only a hobby.

Lol. What's wrong with AT? 6hp21 shifts faster than MT and rev match perfectly on track. And I don't give a crap what geniuses like you think because I refuse to buy a manual when I ordered this car back then.

As I said, there are better mods to do on your car than steering rack. You guys don't have write a novel here or attack other people to justify your problems... Facts have already been presented even before you guys made this thread, but you guys are just too blind to see it. Good luck.

[AtlasM]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Lol. What's wrong with AT? 6hp21 shifts faster than MT and rev match perfectly on track. And I don't give a crap what geniuses like you think because I refuse to buy a manual when I ordered this car back then.

As I said, there are better mods to do on your car than steering rack. You guys don't have write a novel here or attack other people to justify your problems... Facts have already been presented even before you guys made this thread, but you guys are just too blind to see it. Good luck.

You're the last person here who should be saying not to attack people because you have had consistently the worst, most condescending attitude in this thread.

"Don't think things through"

"Lack of reasoning"

"Geniuses like you"

Etc.

Yet when you make personal attacks like this, I and others you're talking down to don't respond in kind.

Go troll somewhere else.