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      02-22-2018, 07:28 PM   #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
It takes everything away from the relevant debate. If you can't accurately articulate valid reasons for the positions you hold, then your position doesn't mean anything.



.
And if you know how to be a troll, then, you just know how to be a troll.
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      02-22-2018, 07:31 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
What if we could magically transform AR rifles to ONLY shoot 9mm bullets, or even .22 bullets instead, but we just called those models something less offensive...like "Woodsman Plinkers." Would those examples be deemed "unnecessary rifles" in your opinion as well?
No, has to do with amount of shots that can be taken in the shortest period of time. And this seems to be the weapon of choice as of recent for mass murderers.

That's why they are in the news and being debated. Nothing wrong with the weapon in itself and I have no problem with guns--but we have more nuts in the world (which needs to be addressed) and one aspect to limiting them is limiting what weapons they have at their disposal.
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      02-22-2018, 07:33 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by Flyingscotsman View Post
Sadly that's so true.
I watched a few bits of 'news' on fox, it's a joke.

Edit
It's more like a talk show with opinions rather than actual news, I'm sure the other side of the political spectrum is the same in the US, no wonder each 'side' politically is so divided with such one sided viewpoints being bombarded at you 24/7
Hate and violence sell.
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      02-22-2018, 07:45 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by 3gunshooter View Post
Hate and violence sell.
It's a bit of a worry really

Maybe it should be rebranded as thoughts rather than news? Lol

Some of the news over here is a bit amateurish in presentation, but generally it is the news.
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      02-22-2018, 07:51 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by Mr Carrots View Post
Sounds like you would be happier in Europe, none of those countries have a pesky constitution like ours to guarantee those annoyingly inconvenient inalienable rights.

I moved to the US partly because it's the last place on earth that enshrines a Bill of Rights, why not do the same thing and relocate to a place where the state can regulate your life a little more?
As others have mentioned America is still relatively young in the brotherhood of big nations. We need to learn from the mistakes that are made and move forward.

The Bill of Rights was set at a time when America was a wild place and the only way to fight against British control and Native Americans was to own a gun. That no longer makes sense in today's society where having a gun is not going to do anything against the govt or invasion from another country... plus the muskets they had back then were terrible. You'd be more accurate and shoot faster with a bow and arrow than a rifle. It is nothing like a modern hunting rifle let alone semi automatic weapon.
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      02-22-2018, 11:09 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by jgoens View Post
And if you know how to be a troll, then, you just know how to be a troll.
Hey, I'm just trying to help you make coherent arguments. If you don't want to be called out on nonsense, don't post nonsense.
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      02-22-2018, 11:14 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by fravel View Post
Hey, I'm just trying to help you make coherent arguments. If you don't want to be called out on nonsense, don't post nonsense.
Oh, thank you so much for your help. Really appreciate it.
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      02-22-2018, 11:22 PM   #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
As others have mentioned America is still relatively young in the brotherhood of big nations. We need to learn from the mistakes that are made and move forward.

The Bill of Rights was set at a time when America was a wild place and the only way to fight against British control and Native Americans was to own a gun. That no longer makes sense in today's society where having a gun is not going to do anything against the govt or invasion from another country... plus the muskets they had back then were terrible. You'd be more accurate and shoot faster with a bow and arrow than a rifle. It is nothing like a modern hunting rifle let alone semi automatic weapon.
Unless you had a 1718 Puckle gun

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      02-22-2018, 11:35 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by jgoens
Oh, thank you so much for your help. Really appreciate it.
You're welcome
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      02-23-2018, 10:01 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by jgoens View Post
No, has to do with amount of shots that can be taken in the shortest period of time.
That's where you continue to sound like a broken record...we've already gone over the fact that handguns are just as capable of shooting 30+ rounds as well, not to mention, are more concealable. By your logic, then, since magazine bans are almost impossible to execute, we should ban everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgoens View Post
one aspect to limiting them is limiting what weapons they have at their disposal.
Spoken exactly like someone not familiar with firearms at all to begin with...the reason why the AR is such a popular platform in the first place is NOT because "it's so easy to get a hold of"; it's unfortunate that you keep perpetuating that opinion. The process for acquiring an AR, in my state at least, is actually MUCH more difficult than acquiring a Bren, SCAR, Aug, etc. ALL models just mentioned shoot the SAME EXACT ammo as an AR and also have 30 round magazines.

ARs are much more common simply because they are the Honda Civics of firearms; they're cheap, reliable, and have an expansive aftermarket. That's the reason why people choose these over others...no one is going to pay ~$3,000 for a SCAR when they they can get an AR equivalent for ~$300, which is exactly why you see one model in the news more than others...just as you are way more likely to pass a Toyota Corolla on the way to work, than say, a Bentley Flying Spur. It's the law of averages.

So there then lies the question; do you ban a weapon simply because it's more affordable? There are obviously other options on the market that have the capability of causing just as much harm.

The next obvious move is to simply ban all of them, right? That's where things go down hill fast...no one is going to let you take the AR off the market; you remove that particular model, the rest would soon follow.
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      02-23-2018, 10:13 AM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Do you carry a gun to feel safer or do you want a society that is actually safer (400%-800% safer according to the various statistics).
In europe its in the first place impossible to get a gun permit for defensive purposes.
What country do you live in?

If you were to go to my native country (Greece) and hand a gun to every individual, chances are they would throw them in trash. It's just not in their interest there...unless they live in the more rural areas, etc. they have no use/desire/ill-intent for/with them.

Do the same in yours and likely the same would occur...maybe a slight bump in unfavorable/violent statistics, but not much else.

Do the same here in the US and there would be chaos in the streets.

Again...this is a people problem; not a gun problem. Ban the PEOPLE incapable of owning them; not the firearm itself.
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      02-23-2018, 11:45 AM   #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
That's where you continue to sound like a broken record...we've already gone over the fact that handguns are just as capable of shooting 30+ rounds as well, not to mention, are more concealable. By your logic, then, since magazine bans are almost impossible to execute, we should ban everything.


Spoken exactly like someone not familiar with firearms at all to begin with...the reason why the AR is such a popular platform in the first place is NOT because "it's so easy to get a hold of"; it's unfortunate that you keep perpetuating that opinion. The process for acquiring an AR, in my state at least, is actually MUCH more difficult than acquiring a Bren, SCAR, Aug, etc. ALL models just mentioned shoot the SAME EXACT ammo as an AR and also have 30 round magazines.

ARs are much more common simply because they are the Honda Civics of firearms; they're cheap, reliable, and have an expansive aftermarket. That's the reason why people choose these over others...no one is going to pay ~$3,000 for a SCAR when they they can get an AR equivalent for ~$300, which is exactly why you see one model in the news more than others...just as you are way more likely to pass a Toyota Corolla on the way to work, than say, a Bentley Flying Spur. It's the law of averages.

So there then lies the question; do you ban a weapon simply because it's more affordable? There are obviously other options on the market that have the capability of causing just as much harm.

The next obvious move is to simply ban all of them, right? That's where things go down hill fast...no one is going to let you take the AR off the market; you remove that particular model, the rest would soon follow.
We have not gone over handguns having 30+ rounds--I'm only talking about what has been in the fake news as the weapon of choice for recent mass-murderers..ie..Sandy hook, Vegas and FL. My logic has not said to ban all guns as I am in no way for that and have stated that fact. Maybe you missed it.

As far as it being easy to acquire, it seems like it is not so difficult in other states--here in CA it is not possible legally. I was in the gun store, looking at guns a couple months ago and found out that.

Your idea to ban all the people who shouldn't have guns is agreed with. Everybody knows this.
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      03-01-2018, 03:05 PM   #497
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I've been to various countries (deployed) and in all of them it is normal for a household to own an AK47 or two. Some drive around with one. There isn't even a government to screen who's allowed to purchase since they're 3rd world countries without a centralized government. Not in one of those countries have I heard of a mass shooting incident and I worked with local law enforcement in every one of them.

Crimes committed with weapons, yes, terrorism, yes, but mass random shootings? Never. The SOLE reason I mention this is because of the comparison. Why don't these countries have mass shootings (which is the debated topic here) despite the MUCH EASIER access to assault weapons (yes, these AKs are full auto capable too)?

Just food for thought
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      03-01-2018, 03:25 PM   #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
I've been to various countries (deployed) and in all of them it is normal for a household to own an AK47 or two. Some drive around with one. There isn't even a government to screen who's allowed to purchase since they're 3rd world countries without a centralized government. Not in one of those countries have I heard of a mass shooting incident and I worked with local law enforcement in every one of them.

Crimes committed with weapons, yes, terrorism, yes, but mass random shootings? Never. The SOLE reason I mention this is because of the comparison. Why don't these countries have mass shootings (which is the debated topic here) despite the MUCH EASIER access to assault weapons (yes, these AKs are full auto capable too)?

Just food for thought
I think one of the problems is in the US, the general attitude from parents is to try to remove problematic situations from happening to their kids rather than teaching kids how to deal with problematic situations when they occur. For example, child sports teams avoid keeping score so kids' feelings aren't hurt rather than parents teaching their kids to deal with losing if/when it happens. We make too much effort to eliminate struggle and not nearly enough effort to teach people how to deal with struggle and difficulties. As a result, when someone doesn't know how to deal with struggle and all of a sudden they get bullied in school or are made to feel like an outcast or a weirdo, they lash out not knowing how to properly deal with those types of situations.

I think in third world countries people's lives are focused around dealing with problems all the time. They have to deal with corrupt govts, civil war, lack of resources and things like that and so bullying doesn't register as a major struggle that people deal with.
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      03-03-2018, 11:45 AM   #499
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Exactly. Can't bubble wrap the world. Buying a gun doesn't make you a super hero or a serial killer. It's a tool that just deserves respect from its owners. I have harnesses and fire suppression in my track car, I carry a gun and knife. I'm responsible for my own well being. There is nothing really to this debate except lack of understanding. This would all go away if everyone owned a gun. Fear and irrationally goes away and realize people are responsible. I have dozens of guns left alone at home today. I'm not worried they will do anything evil on their own.
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      03-21-2018, 12:45 AM   #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
I think one of the problems is in the US, the general attitude from parents is to try to remove problematic situations from happening to their kids rather than teaching kids how to deal with problematic situations when they occur. For example, child sports teams avoid keeping score so kids' feelings aren't hurt rather than parents teaching their kids to deal with losing if/when it happens. We make too much effort to eliminate struggle and not nearly enough effort to teach people how to deal with struggle and difficulties. As a result, when someone doesn't know how to deal with struggle and all of a sudden they get bullied in school or are made to feel like an outcast or a weirdo, they lash out not knowing how to properly deal with those types of situations.

I think in third world countries people's lives are focused around dealing with problems all the time. They have to deal with corrupt govts, civil war, lack of resources and things like that and so bullying doesn't register as a major struggle that people deal with.
In conclusion, we shelter our kids too much. Generally speaking. I completely agree with your logical and rational thought process, but most of America won't since they'll consider it somewhat "barbaric!"
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      03-21-2018, 08:42 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
In conclusion, we shelter our kids too much. Generally speaking. I completely agree with your logical and rational thought process, but most of America won't since they'll consider it somewhat "barbaric!"
I'm not proposing to induce intentional hardship for the purpose of creating teaching opportunities. I'm proposing for parents to be more involved with their kids, to stop trying to shelter their kids, and focus more on teaching them to persevere through difficulties rather than prevent or avoid them. Help your kids build character.

People can agree or disagree, but facts are facts and ignoring them to your detriment only hurts those people in the end...

I'm willing to bet that a VERY VERY VERY large amount of problems this country faces and constantly tries to debate and solve through legislation, wouldn't even register as a problem if parents did a better job parenting... Just a theory
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      03-21-2018, 08:48 AM   #502
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      03-21-2018, 09:16 AM   #503
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I have dozens of guns left alone at home today. I'm not worried they will do anything evil on their own.
Yes, but that is because you trained your guns well. What about all those mis-behaving guns? The ones that run amok?

Its hard to separate the well trained guns from the ones who aren't because they all look the same. Therefore, just easier to ban them all.
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      03-21-2018, 09:46 AM   #504
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      03-21-2018, 11:35 AM   #505
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Shut it
I think it would be fun to shoot with you - set up a little competition. Regrettably, won't happen, but maybe one day I'll meet up with some BP members.
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      03-21-2018, 11:39 AM   #506
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I need more training honestly been slacking a bit. Shoot drills about once a week with pistol but my outdoor range isn't open yet. I'm not very good I mostly shoot the walls and floors, no toes yet.
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