[rjahl]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

I'm open to the idea that perhaps the single stage has one of the plenums blocked (basically a "closed flap"). I'm not certain as to why the 3 stage cars seem to make more top end power, in addition to more low RPM torque. Maybe there's a cheap "single stage" mod where you simulate an open flap by cutting a hole in the plenum where the DISA would be.

I have another single stage I could cut up and see, but the last one I hacked apart I don't remember seeing anything inside the plenums that looked like it was blocking it.

either way the runner sizes, lengths, and plenums are identical between the two.

When I swapped my manifold, I took a good look at the two manifolds and could not find any real difference between them except the disa valves in the middle of the two plenums. Now, I wish I had kept the original. I could have used our Faro to scan it and design a new manifold from the file.

Developing a baseline here is really difficult, I have a hard time putting much stock in some of the older "tunes" for the single stage manifolds. Much of the reliable dyno tuning work has been done for 3IM tunes.

[hassmaschine]

we have like 8 Faro scanners here but I doubt they would be interested in letting me borrow them for something like that.

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

we have like 8 Faro scanners here but I doubt they would be interested in letting me borrow them for something like that.

Cool,

I'm still learning how to use ours. I'd just ask the head the department head if I can take it home for practice. As I'm the head of the department I don't expect any objection.

Actually taking the scan is pretty easy, converting the scan into useful data is painful. A small object like this means you could needs to scan the top, rotate it and scan the bottom then restitch the scans manually. I have not done that yet. So far, every time we've relocated the scanner the scanned object and the surroundings are not moved.

[PhaseP]

The way I understand how the DISA valves are working, they are changing the shortest path between the two cylinder banks: cylinder 1,2,3 and cylinder 4,5,6.

Each time the cylinder intake valve closes, this causes a back air pressure wave generated. Similar phenomenon like water hammering happening at water pipes that has sudden closing valves.

Since inline six is balanced, for each cylinder on bank 1 closing its intake valve, there is a corresponding cylinder on bank 2 opening its intake valve. By providing a path from bank 1 to bank 2 at the intake this back wave pressure is directed to fill the other cylinder opening its intake, allowing more air to it.

At low RPM, the connecting path from bank 1 intake valves to bank 2 intake valves is through the pipe where the intake throttle body is screwed in. Both DISA valves are closed. At low RPM, each cylinder valve closing to next opening takes long time (relatively), so they made this path long enough for air wave to flow through that path matching low RPM speeds.

At mid RPM DISA 2 is opened, which provides a shorter path between bank 1 and bank 2 for the back air pressure wave to travel. Now it takes shorter time for that wave to reach the other bank, and that matches with the speed of the valves opening.

At higher RPM DISA 1 is also opened, which provides the shortest path between bank 1 and bank 2, for the same reason, so that the back pressure wave from intake valve closing in one bank reaches just at the right time to the other bank when intake valve opening on the other bank. If it was still using the longer path, air wave would be late now arriving at the other bank.

Question how much is the back pressure pulses that would be acting on the DISA flap with the SC boosted air. I would think with higher air flow, the back pressure generated due to closing of the intake valve will be higher too.

[PhaseP]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

For the masses, all the soccer moms and commuters, and 98% who buy the 328 especially with auto trans, and hardly rev it over 3500rpm, a single stage intake with long runners is the IM of choice.

The 330i had (and has) its max torque at 2750 rpm, by factory torque power curves from introduction of the E90:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218

So it is not like BMW opted for high end power for 330 with 3 stage IM, and low end torque for 3.0 lt 325/328 single stage IM.

The single stage manifold is exactly like the 3 stage with the DISA flaps missing as already mentioned.
So with single stage manifold, at all rpm ranges there are always 3 different path length between cylinder banks. So never too good but never too bad either. I think this also explains why the single stage manifold N52's don't show those dips in their torque curve, vs the pronounced dips in 3 stage intake N52s. Because the impulse air from bank one to bank two is always getting distributed between the three possible but different length paths. No productive resonance and same way no counter productive resonance is allowed.

[MoserBMW]

Update :

SC arrived yesterday and teardown began this morning.

Some pics :

[rjahl]

For the price of a "5 cent" tour of the plant, Axiom is bringing over his original single stage manifold. I'll be able to scan it with a laser scanner and stick a camera probe down the runners to see what the internals look like.

[tom.gnade]

What would stop BPC from offering a supercharger kit for the N52 if they develop this tune? They already found the right injectors when they developed the race turbo. This is bone simple by comparison, it's just a few parts and the tune. They already figured out how to add an intercooler with the turbo kit, so they could probably make a stage 2 high-boost version of an SC kit with little difficulty.

[W37V]

Originally Posted by tom.gnade

What would stop BPC from offering a supercharger kit for the N52 if they develop this tune? They already found the right injectors when they developed the race turbo. This is bone simple by comparison, it's just a few parts and the tune. They already figured out how to add an intercooler with the turbo kit, so they could probably make a stage 2 high-boost version of an SC kit with little difficulty.

You forgot that they have experience with BOV.

According to the guy from HK, who had custom tune his SC, he uses M3 injectors with his kit.

[CobraMarty]

And now they have a SC bracket to ...

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

And now they have a SC bracket to ...

I am surprised no one has knocked off this kit yet. Can't be much to it...

[dancing__narwhal]

Originally Posted by MoserBMW

Update :

SC arrived yesterday and teardown began this morning.

Woohoo! Back on topic...

[CobraMarty]

Originally Posted by Torgus

I am surprised no one has knocked off this kit yet. Can't be much to it...

Send it to me to 'inspect'.

[CobraMarty]

Most interesting.
I took my single stage and 3 stage intakes off the shelf and looked closely at them.
I looked down them with my borescope, mostly thru the MAP sensor port.

3 Stage Intake Manifold-
Stage 1- both disa valves closed, divides the manifold into 2 separate 3 cylinder manifolds. Front bank and rear bank. Longest intake tract, more torque/power.
Stage 2- the smaller disa valve opens and there is a small about 1"x1" crossover pipe which opens and allows the 2 sides/banks to communicate. This allows one bank of cylinders to draw a small amount of air from the other bank and allows the 'frequency resonance wave' to pass to the other bank of cylinders
Stage 3- the larger disa valve opens in the large plenum between the 2 banks and lets any cylinder draw from both 'horns' and shortens the total runner length for more power.

1 Stage Intake Manifold-
-the small 1"x1" crossover tube between the 2 banks is open all the time(just like stage 2 of 3IM)
-the large plenum connecting all runners, in the middle there is a metal plate separating the 2 banks but with about 30- 1/4" hole drilled in it. This allows a very small amount of air to pass between the banks. It is not blocked off completely(like stage 2 of 3IM) or wide open(like stage 3 of 3IM) either.

So it looks like, the 1 stage IM is about a 'stage 2.5' of a 3 stage IM. The '.5' is because of the large plenum partial opening by the 30x 1/4" holes in the metal divider.
The 1IM is like stage 2 of the 3IM(small disa open) and with the larger disa valve partially opened(30-1/4" holes)

1IM is Not 'stage 1 of the 3IM' like I had thought with both disa valves closed(blocked 1"x1" connecting tube and blocked large plenum). My bad.

So that is why the 3IM makes a bit more power down low rpm and more power up high rpm.
Both the 3IM and 1IM make about the same in the middle rpm.

[Kubricks]

Originally Posted by W37V

You forgot that they have experience with BOV.

According to the guy from HK, who had custom tune his SC, he uses M3 injectors with his kit.

Just check the parts no. on the ESS provided Bosch injectors, they are spec for E9X M3.

[Bob@BPC]

Originally Posted by Kubricks

Just check the parts no. on the ESS provided Bosch injectors, they are spec for E9X M3.

I just looked them up today as well, not sure how much better the s65 injector will do over the stock one. I had a stock n52 injector flow tested and it came out to be around 31lbs @ 73.5lbs of rail pressure. And from what I have been told the stock s65 injector is only a 36lb injector @ 43lbs of pressure and a 45.6 @ 73.5, so that would only allow for a max power output on a 6 cylinder to be 400 crank or 340 wheel hp @ 80% duty cycle.

With a smaller pulley making 9lbs of boost, header and meth injection I can see close to 400rwhp out of this kit...but first thing first is to do a baseline blower dyno run

[W37V]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPC

I just looked them up today as well, not sure how much better the s65 injector will do over the stock one. I had a stock n52 injector flow tested and it came out to be around 31lbs @ 73.5lbs of rail pressure. And from what I have been told the stock s65 injector is only a 36lb injector @ 43lbs of pressure and a 45.6 @ 73.5, so that would only allow for a max power output on a 6 cylinder to be 400 crank or 340 wheel hp @ 80% duty cycle.

With a smaller pulley making 9lbs of boost, header and meth injection I can see close to 400rwhp out of this kit...but first thing first is to do a baseline blower dyno run

Those injectors would be sufficient for the power levels ESS is delivering. It's OEM part, so it was an easy way to resolve fueling limitation without messing up idle etc.

So looking forward to numbers and where you take it from here.

[PhaseP]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

The '.25' is because of the large plenum partial opening by the 30x 1/4" holes in the metal divider.

Interesting. 30 1/4" holes on a plate would work like a "resistive" (damper) element for air flow. This would dampen resonance effects.
Since the flaps are missing, they didn't want it to develop a torque reducing resonance at a lower rpm, my guess. Again explains why N52's without 3-stage intake doesn't show any dips in the torque curve.

[JuniorB]

Bob confirmed what I've suspected, this kit can make good power if taken the time to set up, the only down fall is an ic, there is no piping options for this setup. All e90 cars are set up for turbos coming from the right side, unless the kit was reversed engineered then fueling is the only option out there. Now that your in the first class, you have to look at it at your options and what's working for the n54/55 guys. These is an awesome new n54 manifold out there right now that incorporates pi, it's a redesighed runner for the distribution problems associated with fuel supplement. As long as funds are available, start looking into beta testing g these for the n52 car. Guys, this is a supercharger, it's made to make gobs of power, not just some. This could be another option vs the turbo kit, and maybe the e60 guys can jump on this wagon!!!

[Eagle1oh7]

Would it also work with the N51??

[rick100]

Personally 300-350 whp would be perfect without spending tons of money and having potential big failures. Perfect daily and fun car

I was having some fun yesterday on the country roads at night after my soccer game and the car is plenty fast with just 230 whp . I was reaching 60-70mhp pretty quick. I m not sure if I can feel that comfortable controlling the car on turns with more power . I had my friends new tunedodge charger srt392 with 500 hp and 475 tq for the weekend and that thing is a beast , but useless on the street, you put your foot down and the car is already over 60 mph. Fun weekend toy but not so much for daily commune

Unless of course OP wants to take this car to the track , but then he would need to upgrade the brakes , suspension , etc ,etc depending on how serious he gets. At this point I would recommend going with a different ligher car ( 128, e46 m3, s2000 , miata, rx7 ,subaru sti , lancer evo etc)
At the drag this car is far from being competitive even with a ESS full blown out kit. Any stock v8 muscle or tune turbocharge car will eat it alive

Just my personal opinion

[MoserBMW]

Originally Posted by rick100

Personally 300-350 whp would be perfect without spending tons of money and having potential big failures. Perfect daily and fun car

I was having some fun yesterday on the country roads at night after my soccer game and the car is plenty fast with just 230 whp . I was reaching 60-70mhp pretty quick. I m not sure if I can feel that comfortable controlling the car on turns with more power . I had my friends new tunedodge charger srt392 with 500 hp and 475 tq for the weekend and that thing is a beast , but useless on the street, you put your foot down and the car is already over 60 mph. Fun weekend toy but not so much for daily commune

Unless of course OP wants to take this car to the track , but then he would need to upgrade the brakes , suspension , etc ,etc depending on how serious he gets. At this point I would recommend going with a different ligher car ( 128, e46 m3, s2000 , miata, rx7 ,subaru sti , lancer evo etc)
At the drag this car is far from being competitive even with a ESS full blown out kit. Any stock v8 muscle or tune turbocharge car will eat it alive

Just my personal opinion

I agree, 300-350 (Hopefully we can hit that) will be plenty fun and enough for anything I do in the future. I do plan on autocrossing the car and maybe some track days in the future. Suspension has been upgraded to BC coilovers, and brakes are Stoptech Drilled and slotted with Hawk EBC red pads. I still have a few suspension bits I want and need to refresh some bushings etc, but this is one of the last major components to add. Im definitely not planning on going super competitive, but more so to be able to improve my driving and have some fun while doing it.